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Thread: Conoco Begins Confiscating Venezuela Oil Assets, Infuriating China

  1. #1

    Conoco Begins Confiscating Venezuela Oil Assets, Infuriating China

    On April 25, ConocoPhillips won a ruling that said the US major was entitled to more than $2 billion from Venezuela’s insolvent state oil company, PDVSA, over the country’s expropriation of several oil projects more than a decade ago. The drawn-out international legal struggle began in 2007 when ConocoPhillips and Exxon Mobil refused to cede control of their major oil production ventures to the Venezuelan government, as demanded by Hugo Chávez, who was president. The U.S. firm left the country after it could not reach a deal to convert its projects into joint ventures controlled by PDVSA, even as several other oil companies, including Chevron, Repsol of Spain and Total of France, agreed to the demand and accepted partnerships with the national oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela, better known as PDVSA.
    The problem, however, now that Conoco has the greenlight to demand billions, is trying to collect on the court ruling: the Venezuelan government has resisted the demands of companies whose assets it has confiscated, and since it is effectively bankrupt, there is little it can be threatened with under conventional contract law.
    So, following the April 25 ruling, in a statement the Houston-based ConocoPhillips said it would “pursue enforcement and seek financial recovery of its award to the full extent of the law.”
    Over the weekend it did just that.
    As Reuters updates, ConocoPhillips has moved to "take Caribbean assets" - i.e. confiscate - belonging to Venezuela's state-owned, solvency-challenged PDVSA as part of its unilateral enforcement of the $2 billion arbitration award.
    The U.S. firm is said to have targeted PDVSA facilities on the islands of Curacao, Bonaire and St. Eustatius that accounted for about a quarter of Venezuela’s oil exports last year. The three play key roles in processing, storing and blending PDVSA’s oil for export.
    The move, incidentally, is entirely legal: Conoco received court attachments freezing assets at least two of the facilities, and could move to sell them, one of the sources said.
    What the confiscation of key Venezuela assets means is that the US oil major's legal maneuvers could further impair PDVSA’s already sharply declining oil revenue and the country’s convulsing economy. Venezuela is almost completely dependent on oil exports, which have fallen by a third since its peak and its refineries ran at just 31 percent of capacity in the first quarter.
    Venezuela's collapsing oil production juxtaposed with the soaring US shale output, is shown in the Reuters chart below:

    Making matters worse, this could be just the beginning of Conoco's aggressive confiscation: the company's claims against Venezuela and state-run PDVSA in international courts have totaled $33 billion, the largest by any company.
    “Any potential impacts on communities are the result of PDVSA’s illegal expropriation of our assets and its decision to ignore the judgment of the ICC tribunal,” Conoco said in an email to Reuters.
    Meanwhile, making confiscation a relatively simple venture for Conoco, PDVSA has extensive assets in the Caribbean. Some examples:

    • On Bonaire, it owns the 10-million-barrel BOPEC terminal which handles logistics and fuel shipments to customers, particularly in Asia, i.e. China.
    • In Aruba, PDVSA and its unit Citgo lease a refinery and a storage terminal.
    • On the island of St. Eustatius, it rents storage tanks at the Statia terminal, owned by U.S. NuStar Energy, where over 4 million barrels of Venezuelan crude were retained by court order, according to one of the sources.

    Additionally, Reuters reports that Conoco also sought to attach PDVSA inventories on Curacao, "home of the 335,000-barrel-per-day Isla refinery and Bullenbay oil terminal. But the order could not immediately be enforced, according to two of the sources."
    And this is where not only Caracas, but also China is about to get very angry.
    While PDVSA’s shipments from Bonaire and St Eustatius terminals accounted for about 10% of Venezuela's total exports, the more important question is who were the recipients. According to Reuters, the exports were mostly crude and fuel oil for Asian customers including ChinaOil, China’s Zhenhua Oil and India’s Reliance Industries.
    Which means China is about to see a significant decline in its Venezuela imports thanks to, you got it, a confiscation green lit by United States, and it will be most displeased.
    Some more details on the confiscated assets: "From its largest Caribbean operations in Curacao, PDVSA shipped 14 percent of its exports last year, including products exported by its Isla refinery to Caribbean islands and crude from its Bullenbay terminal to buyers of Venezuelan crude all over the world."
    Meanwhile, making matters worse, operations at the bankrupt state-owned oil company are grinding to a halt: PDVSA on Friday ordered its oil tankers sailing across the Caribbean to return to Venezuelan waters and await further instructions, according to a document viewed by Reuters. In the last year, several cargoes of Venezuelan crude have been retained or seized in recent years over unpaid freight fees and related debts.
    “This is terrible (for PDVSA),” said a source familiar with the court order of attachment. The state-run company “cannot comply with all the committed volume for exports” and the Conoco action imperils its ability to ship fuel oil to China or access inventories to be exported from Bonaire.
    And now the question is what will China do after a US company has effectively crippled Venezuela's oil output, forcing Beijing to look for much more expensive oil elsewhere.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...uriating-china
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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  3. #2
    As Venezuela’s creditors are gathering to discuss how they may best protect their interests, additional pressure from former head of the country’s state-owned oil company, PdVSA, was applied on Saturday. Rafael Ramirez, the former head of the company under Chavez and Maduro, barely escaped with his life when Maduro arrested the top officials at the company last year for “engaging in corruption.” Maduro replaced Ramirez with Major General Manuel Quevedo, who is succeeding in even more rapidly running into the ground the once-prosperous and highly profitable energy producer.
    In an 80-minute telephone call from an undisclosed location, Ramirez told Gulf News that oil production from his former company, already cut in half thanks to Maduro’s decisions and the company’s lack of capital to maintain it, will decline even further this year. He estimates that daily oil production, at barely 1.4 million barrels a day (down from 3.5 million a few years ago), will decline by 600,000 barrels this year. Ramirez claimed that the corruption charges were phony — that they were an attempt to increase Maduro’s hold over the company by his military.

    There are so many creditors — banks, bond investors, international oil companies, and governments such as China, Russia and Cuba — that have helped fund Maduro’s socialist experiment that Nick Cunningham (a journalist at OilPrice.com who has been following Venezuela’s decline for years) asked an attorney skilled in such matters to help in sorting it all out. Jay Auslander, recognized for his work in enforcing judgments and in litigating debt defaults, did his best. Aside from standing aside and letting the socialist regime collapse by itself or with outside help, “the other thing creditors can do is … declare defaults.… We’re going to have a sort of cascade of creditors [who will] declare defaults … and get judgments.”

    More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/world...ela-s-defaults
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Two days after ConocoPhillips moved to seize assets owned by Venezuela’s state oil company, PDVSA, in the Caribbean, shipping data revealed that PDVSA has diverted a tanker carrying crude from Russia from its course to offload it at Curacao, Reuters reports.
    The Aframax tanker British Sygnet, the data shows, loaded at Primorsk, Russia, a month ago and set sail for Curacao. It was diverted on Monday, after the news about Conoco’s court orders—to seize inventories and other assets—became public. But a source from PDVSA told Reuters that it is not the first tanker to be diverted: at least nine other vessels have set sail for Venezuela and Cuba since Friday to avoid passing into the hands of the U.S. company, whose total demands for compensation from PDVSA reach US$33 billion.

    More at: https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-N...-Terminal.html
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    A Curacao court has authorized ConocoPhillips to seize about $636 million in assets belonging to Petroleos de Venezuela, Reuters reported May 12.

    More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...ompanys-assets
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    U.S. oil company ConocoPhillips has brought new court actions to seize two cargoes of crude and fuel near a terminal operated by PDVSA subsidiary Citgo Petroleum in Aruba, the Aruban government confirmed on Tuesday. Conoco is moving aggressively to enforce a $2 billion arbitration award over the 2007 expropriation of two oil projects in Venezuela, creating unease in the Caribbean, where many islands depend on fuel produced by state-run PDVSA .
    "The Aruba refinery has said that an embargo on two Citgo oil cargoes was introduced last night. Citgo is claiming the crude as its own, and is fighting at court to demonstrate the product is not PDVSA's," said Prime Minister Evelyn Wever-Croes in a statement. "Independent of any outcome, this is not going to affect Aruba," she said.
    The cargoes seized included 500,000 barrels of crude oil on the Grimstad and about 300,000 barrels of jet fuel, gasoline and diesel on the Atlantic Lily, according to a source at the Aruba terminal and Thomson Reuters vessel tracking data.
    Citgo, the U.S. refining unit of PDVSA, has leased the 209,000 barrel-per-day (bpd) Aruba refinery and its 13 million-barrel terminal from the government since 2016 to store Venezuelan and other crudes for supplying its U.S. refineries.
    As the refinery remains idled since 2012 while a major refurbish project is underway, Citgo regularly supplies the island with imported fuel.
    Wever-Croes told journalists government officials and the management of the refinery were organizing a contingency plan to avoid a situation similar to Curacao and Bonaire, where inventories were blocked by Conoco's legal actions.
    No fuel shortages have been reported in the Caribbean but officials are trying to import from other sources.
    Conoco in recent days seized the 10-million-barrel BOPEC oil terminal owned by PDVSA in Bonaire and fuel inventories at the 335,000-bpd Isla refinery operated by the Venezuelan firm in Curacao. Both islands are in talks with Conoco to free fuel for domestic consumption.
    "What belongs to Citgo belongs to PDVSA, but a judge has to rule on it," Wever-Croes said.

    More at: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reu..._campaign=1490
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    Lawyers for Venezuela's state-owned energy company Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) and ConocoPhillips lawyers met on May 21 in Curacao and agreed to lift liens on PDVSA assets, Argus reported May 22. The two are close to reaching a deal on a $2 billion arbitration award that PDVSA owes ConocoPhillips.

    More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...conocophillips
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    I am sure Venezuela's economy problems is mainly due to socialism
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I am sure Venezuela's economy problems is mainly due to socialism
    Yup, when they destroyed their economy they couldn't pay their debts and their creditors started to foreclose assets.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yup, when they destroyed their economy they couldn't pay their debts and their creditors started to foreclose assets.
    Conoco is moving aggressively to enforce a $2 billion arbitration award over the 2007 expropriation of two oil projects in Venezuela, creating unease in the Caribbean, where many islands depend on fuel produced by state-run PDVSA .
    You are right, I am sure the arbitration process was very fair to both sides and were not at all showing favoritism to the western backed company. Btw, this is all speculation on my part. Venezuela has a massive oil reserve that I am sure the US wants to control. They tried a coup when Chavez was in power and believe they have never stopped trying
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are right, I am sure the arbitration process was very fair to both sides and were not at all showing favoritism to the western backed company. Btw, this is all speculation on my part. Venezuela has a massive oil reserve that I am sure the US wants to control. They tried a coup when Chavez was in power and believe they have never stopped trying
    Venezuela owes money to lots of people, even if you imagine some justification for the seizure Conoco's assets to suit your love of communists it doesn't change a thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    As Venezuela’s creditors are gathering to discuss how they may best protect their interests, additional pressure from former head of the country’s state-owned oil company, PdVSA, was applied on Saturday. Rafael Ramirez, the former head of the company under Chavez and Maduro, barely escaped with his life when Maduro arrested the top officials at the company last year for “engaging in corruption.” Maduro replaced Ramirez with Major General Manuel Quevedo, who is succeeding in even more rapidly running into the ground the once-prosperous and highly profitable energy producer.
    In an 80-minute telephone call from an undisclosed location, Ramirez told Gulf News that oil production from his former company, already cut in half thanks to Maduro’s decisions and the company’s lack of capital to maintain it, will decline even further this year. He estimates that daily oil production, at barely 1.4 million barrels a day (down from 3.5 million a few years ago), will decline by 600,000 barrels this year. Ramirez claimed that the corruption charges were phony — that they were an attempt to increase Maduro’s hold over the company by his military.

    There are so many creditors — banks, bond investors, international oil companies, and governments such as China, Russia and Cuba — that have helped fund Maduro’s socialist experiment that Nick Cunningham (a journalist at OilPrice.com who has been following Venezuela’s decline for years) asked an attorney skilled in such matters to help in sorting it all out. Jay Auslander, recognized for his work in enforcing judgments and in litigating debt defaults, did his best. Aside from standing aside and letting the socialist regime collapse by itself or with outside help, “the other thing creditors can do is … declare defaults.… We’re going to have a sort of cascade of creditors [who will] declare defaults … and get judgments.”

    More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/world...ela-s-defaults
    Also Venezuela got themselves into this mess long ago and the arbitration award just happened, the commies have had the benefit of the two oil projects all this time.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are right, I am sure the arbitration process was very fair to both sides and were not at all showing favoritism to the western backed company. Btw, this is all speculation on my part. Venezuela has a massive oil reserve that I am sure the US wants to control. They tried a coup when Chavez was in power and believe they have never stopped trying
    From Ron Paul:

    Most importantly, the dollar/oil relationship has to be maintained to keep the dollar as a preeminent currency. Any attack on this relationship will be forcefully challenged — as it already has been.

    In November 2000 Saddam Hussein demanded Euros for his oil. His arrogance was a threat to the dollar; his lack of any military might was never a threat. At the first cabinet meeting with the new administration in 2001, as reported by Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, the major topic was how we would get rid of Saddam Hussein — though there was no evidence whatsoever he posed a threat to us. This deep concern for Saddam Hussein surprised and shocked O’Neill.

    It now is common knowledge that the immediate reaction of the administration after 9/11 revolved around how they could connect Saddam Hussein to the attacks, to justify an invasion and overthrow of his government. Even with no evidence of any connection to 9/11, or evidence of weapons of mass destruction, public and congressional support was generated through distortions and flat out misrepresentation of the facts to justify overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

    There was no public talk of removing Saddam Hussein because of his attack on the integrity of the dollar as a reserve currency by selling oil in Euros. Many believe this was the real reason for our obsession with Iraq. I doubt it was the only reason, but it may well have played a significant role in our motivation to wage war. Within a very short period after the military victory, all Iraqi oil sales were carried out in dollars. The Euro was abandoned.

    In 2001, Venezuela’s ambassador to Russia spoke of Venezuela switching to the Euro for all their oil sales. Within a year there was a coup attempt against Chavez, reportedly with assistance from our CIA.

    After these attempts to nudge the Euro toward replacing the dollar as the world’s reserve currency were met with resistance, the sharp fall of the dollar against the Euro was reversed. These events may well have played a significant role in maintaining dollar dominance.

    It’s become clear the U.S. administration was sympathetic to those who plotted the overthrow of Chavez, and was embarrassed by its failure. The fact that Chavez was democratically elected had little influence on which side we supported.


    Now, a new attempt is being made against the petrodollar system. Iran, another member of the “axis of evil,” has announced her plans to initiate an oil bourse in March of this year. Guess what, the oil sales will be priced Euros, not dollars.

    Most Americans forget how our policies have systematically and needlessly antagonized the Iranians over the years. In 1953 the CIA helped overthrow a democratically elected president, Mohammed Mossadeqh, and install the authoritarian Shah, who was friendly to the U.S. The Iranians were still fuming over this when the hostages were seized in 1979. Our alliance with Saddam Hussein in his invasion of Iran in the early 1980s did not help matters, and obviously did not do much for our relationship with Saddam Hussein. The administration announcement in 2001 that Iran was part of the axis of evil didn’t do much to improve the diplomatic relationship between our two countries. Recent threats over nuclear power, while ignoring the fact that they are surrounded by countries with nuclear weapons, doesn’t seem to register with those who continue to provoke Iran. With what most Muslims perceive as our war against Islam, and this recent history, there’s little wonder why Iran might choose to harm America by undermining the dollar. Iran, like Iraq, has zero capability to attack us. But that didn’t stop us from turning Saddam Hussein into a modern day Hitler ready to take over the world. Now Iran, especially since she’s made plans for pricing oil in Euros, has been on the receiving end of a propaganda war not unlike that waged against Iraq before our invasion.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/02/...and-venezuela/

    More Ron Paul:

    There is something unsettling about how President Trump has surrounded himself with generals. From his defense secretary to his national security advisor to his White House chief of staff, Trump looks to senior military officers to fill key positions that have been customarily filled by civilians. He’s surrounded by generals and threatens war at the drop of a hat.

    President Trump began last week by threatening “fire and fury” on North Korea. He continued through the week claiming, falsely, that Iran is violating the terms of the nuclear deal. He finally ended the week by threatening a US military attack on Venezuela.

    He told reporters on Friday that, “We have many options for Venezuela including a possible military option if necessary. …We have troops all over the world in places that are very, very far away. Venezuela is not very far away and the people are suffering, and they are dying.”

    Venezuela’s defense minister called Trump’s threat “an act of craziness.”

    Even more worrisome, when Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro tried to call President Trump for clarification he was refused.
    The White House stated that discussions with the Venezuelan president could only take place once democracy was restored in the country. Does that mean President Trump is moving toward declaring Maduro no longer the legitimate president of Venezuela? Is Trump taking a page from Obama’s failed regime change policy for Syria and declaring that “Maduro must go”?

    The current unrest in Venezuela is related to the economic shortcomings of that country’s centrally-planned economy. The 20th century has shown us very clearly that state control over an economy leads to mismanagement, mal-investment, massive shortages, and finally economic collapse. That is why those of us who advocate free market economics constantly warn that US government intervention in our own economy is leading us toward a similar financial crisis.

    But there is another factor in the unrest in Venezuela. For many years the United States government, through the CIA, the National Endowment for Democracy, and US government funded NGOs, have been trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government.
    They almost succeeded in 2002, when then-president Hugo Chavez was briefly driven from office. Washington has spent millions trying to manipulate Venezuela’s elections and overturn the results. US policy is to create unrest and then use that unrest as a pretext for US intervention.
    And Darius Shahtahmasebi:

    Now Venezuela may ultimately join the bandwagon, all the while cozying up to Russia, as well (unsurprisingly, Venezuela and Iran were identified in William R. Clark’s book as attracting particular geostrategic tensions with the United States). The CIA’s admission that it intends to interfere inside Venezuela to exact a change of government — combined with Trump’s recent threat of military intervention in Venezuela and Vice President Mike Pence’s warning that the U.S. will not “stand by” and watch Venezuela deteriorate — all start to make a lot more sense when viewed through this geopolitical lens.

    What initially sounded like a conspiracy theory seems to be a more plausible reality as countries that begin dropping the U.S. dollar and opting for alternative currencies continuously — and without exception — end up targeted for regime change.

    If the U.S. steps up its involvement in Venezuela, the reasons why should be clear to those who have been paying attention.


    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/09/...-ditch-dollar/
    There is no spoon.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    None of which changes the fact that communism is the primary factor responsible for the current state of Venezuela.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Venezuela owes money to lots of people, even if you imagine some justification for the seizure Conoco's assets to suit your love of communists it doesn't change a thing:



    Also Venezuela got themselves into this mess long ago and the arbitration award just happened, the commies have had the benefit of the two oil projects all this time.
    And the US owes lots of people lots of money too. As a %age of GDP, the United States Capitalist country has a much higher debt to GDP ration than Commie Venezuela, imagine that? The difference between the two is that one has the ability to print money and two have the ability to sanction countries they don't like to make it harder for that country to finance their much smaller debt.

    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    And the US owes lots of people lots of money too. As a %age of GDP, the United States Capitalist country has a much higher debt to GDP ration than Commie Venezuela, imagine that? The difference between the two is that one has the ability to print money and two have the ability to sanction countries they don't like to make it harder for that country to finance their much smaller debt.

    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.
    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.

    Exactly- and the meddling is to bring countries with large resources down & into the complete control of USG.
    Last edited by Ender; 05-23-2018 at 09:43 AM.
    There is no spoon.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    the United States Capitalist country
    Where is this country of which you speak? Sounds like a great place! I'd really like to visit there!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    And the US owes lots of people lots of money too. As a %age of GDP, the United States Capitalist country has a much higher debt to GDP ration than Commie Venezuela, imagine that? The difference between the two is that one has the ability to print money and two have the ability to sanction countries they don't like to make it harder for that country to finance their much smaller debt.

    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.
    No it's not. I don't like US meddling but the US meddles in lots of countries and their economies don't suddenly collapse. Socialism/communism is clearly the cause.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    No it's not. I don't like US meddling but the US meddles in lots of countries and their economies don't suddenly collapse. Socialism/communism is clearly the cause.
    Maybe the Venezuela is just more vulnerable to US meddling. Sudden collapse or tipping point? their efforts to undermine the Venezuelan economic started when Chavez was in power and now with the help of low oil prices which the economy(which the country is high dependent on) and well placed sanction led to a collapse. The point being that the economy would most likely not have collapsed had the US not meddled.

    Also take a look at the other countries US is meddling in. We have North Korea, Russia, Iran, Sudan and feel free to add more and you can see that all these countries are having problems with their economies. The common denominator with these countries is not their economic system but it is US meddling. End the US meddling, sanctions and economic sabotage and watch how they all experience economic recoveries.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.

    Exactly- and the meddling is to bring countries with large resources down & into the complete control of USG.
    The funny part is that most of the stories he posts about Venezuela point to US meddling and he still thinks that the effects are minimal.

    Btw, I used to be like him where I was staunch free markets. I was very dogmatic about the capitalist system being the only way to run an prosperous economy. I have soften up on that idea. Capitalism is the most efficient way and most likely to lead to prosperity but I now know that humans can succeed in just about any economic system. Socialism, command economy, capitalism (obviously), once you can psych the populous into believing that they are working for each other, there is equity in the system and the leader are not stealing from they. The human animal can thrive even in a cage.

    The reason I think capitalism works best is that it is the economic system when these claims are easiest to make
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are right, I am sure the arbitration process was very fair to both sides and were not at all showing favoritism to the western backed company. Btw, this is all speculation on my part. Venezuela has a massive oil reserve that I am sure the US wants to control. They tried a coup when Chavez was in power and believe they have never stopped trying


    Hugo Chavez took numerous American businesses. That is never an appropriate solution. So what do you mean the the arbiters were biased to the US? Chavez literally just plundered US businesses and didn't even pay them. He said he did it because they were "exploiting the workers." This is a historical fact. https://www.google.com/search?q=chav...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    I don't get these eyerolls. You can't have a functioning economy when anytime you are successful the government is going to take your business. That isn't debatable. Who is going to invest in a country like that? Socialism is 100% of the problem in Venezuela. Not 99%. 100%. The United States is 0% of Venezuela's problem.

    A coup is totally legitimate against Chavez. He should have had his head cut off and kicked around like a soccer ball. He should have gotten the Mussolini treatment.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Venezuela owes money to lots of people, even if you imagine some justification for the seizure Conoco's assets to suit your love of communists it doesn't change a thing:



    Also Venezuela got themselves into this mess long ago and the arbitration award just happened, the commies have had the benefit of the two oil projects all this time.
    You're talking to a guy who thinks Che is a hero. It shouldn't be shocking to find that he's a socialism-denier.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Sorry buddy, but the US meddling is the cause of their economic problems.

    Exactly- and the meddling is to bring countries with large resources down & into the complete control of USG.

    What is this Commie Trash Forums? No, the United States is not the problem. Not even a little bit. The United State is not the cause of all evil.

  25. #22
    So many thread in RPF reminds me of high school, where one sides just lines up behind their cliques, deploying all manners of logical fallacies and ignoring the points made by the other side. Keep calling me a commie, that should win the argument with your clique.
    Last edited by juleswin; 05-23-2018 at 11:11 AM.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    So many thread in RPF reminds me of high school, where one sides just lines up behind their cliques, deploying all manners of logical fallacies and ignoring the points made by the other side. Keep calling me a commie, that should win the argument with your clique.
    I don't know if you are talking to me, but I provided factual arguments to why socialism is the cause.

    You cannot seize private property on a mass scale and have a functioning economy. You are going to have capital flight out of the country. That happens every time. It happened in Zimbabwe. Price controls lead to shortages. It can't be any other way. It is non-debatable.

    We have North Korea, Russia, Iran, Sudan and feel free to add more and you can see that all these countries are having problems with their economies.
    Those are the least free countries in the world. North Korea is 180 out of 180. Communism does not work. This is a settled issue.

    Cliques? I like reading contrarian opinions. I like Zippyjuan's posts even if they sometimes are a little annoying. He makes me think and defend my view. What he doesn't do is try to justify Communism as a system. A reasonable person cannot hold that view.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 05-23-2018 at 11:28 AM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Maybe the Venezuela is just more vulnerable to US meddling. Sudden collapse or tipping point? their efforts to undermine the Venezuelan economic started when Chavez was in power and now with the help of low oil prices which the economy(which the country is high dependent on) and well placed sanction led to a collapse. The point being that the economy would most likely not have collapsed had the US not meddled.

    Also take a look at the other countries US is meddling in. We have North Korea, Russia, Iran, Sudan and feel free to add more and you can see that all these countries are having problems with their economies. The common denominator with these countries is not their economic system but it is US meddling. End the US meddling, sanctions and economic sabotage and watch how they all experience economic recoveries.
    So according to your theory the US wasn't meddling in Venezuela until after Chavez was elected, then right after the election the US started meddling and that caused the economy to collapse? Chavez's massive confiscation of private businesses (and all sorts of other violations of private property rights) had nothing to do with it? C'mon man.

    How do you know the US meddled more in those bad countries compared to good countries like Switzerland or Canada or Singapore or Hong Kong? And if US governmental meddling is SO BAD that it is THE determining factor in the health of an economy why isn't the US economy the WORST OF ALL???? After all I'm pretty sure the US government meddles a lot more in the US compared to Venezuela or North Korea.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    You cannot seize private property on a mass scale and have a functioning economy. You are going to have capital flight out of the country. That happens every time. It happened in Zimbabwe. Price controls lead to shortages. It can't be any other way. It is non-debatable.
    My wife is from Colombia so she follows the situation in Venezuela closely. Back when Chavez instituted price controls I told her "watch, they'll have food shortages next". Then like night follows day ... food shortages.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    What is this Commie Trash Forums? No, the United States is not the problem. Not even a little bit. The United State is not the cause of all evil.
    I am completely for free markets- have never said otherwise.

    BUT- the USG meddles in elections & coups all over the world and for places like Venezuela & Iran, it is for resources. The sanctions put on these countries are deliberate acts of war & uncalled for. We have no business overthrowing other governments and sanctioning countries. PLUS the US is no longer a capitalist country- it is a center of crony-capitalism or more correctly, mercantilism, which the War of Independence was fought over.

    Also, when left alone many "communist" regimes collapse & then become capitalistic- like Cuba right now. Here's a great article about how Cuba has morphed into real capitalism.

    Investing in Collapse
    By Jeff Thomas
    International Man

    May 22, 2018

    For years, I’ve been writing about Venezuela, describing it as the “movie” by which we can view the future of other jurisdictions that are presently in decline.

    The reason is that declining nations follow the same pattern, time and time again, over the centuries. This is not coincidence. The pattern exists because human nature never changes, regardless of the era or the locale. Political leaders make the same mistakes as their forebears, and the people of a nation react in kind.

    For this reason, countries have a sort of “shelf life.” They rise in prominence, due to work ethic and productivity. They then go through a period of abundance, which eventually deteriorates, due to complacency and apathy. Finally, they collapse into a period of bondage.

    If we recognize that this pattern has played out countless times over the millennia, we can track any given country and assess where it is at present, in the pattern. For example, Europe and North America are presently in the last stages prior to collapse, Venezuela is in the process of collapse and Cuba is in the post-collapse recovery.

    But, although this may be historically interesting, of what value is it to us in terms of our own lives and the choices we make for our future?

    Well, we can observe Venezuela and see the effects of the present policies evident in our own country, if we happen to live in one that’s on the verge of collapse.

    For example, we can see that ever-increasing largesse by a government—on the backs of productive taxpayers—is a major destructive trend. “Protective” tariffs and capital controls also lead to collapse. And excessive debt is a pathway to economic collapse.

    We can see from the recent history in Venezuela how these political mistakes caused their collapse, and we can now observe how that collapse plays out.

    But, going back to the title of this essay, how do we invest in collapse?

    Well, the reader will be familiar with the investment principle of “buy low, sell high.” This means that the investor should not wait until an investment is already popular. He should invest when it’s at its least popular.

    So, let’s look at that a bit more closely.

    The principle would suggest that, in the main, the US, in its final, declining stage, is a poor country for investment, but that Venezuela could be a far better possibility.

    But at what point should investment take place? Well, there are a few basic assumptions that might be made. First, investment is difficult at a time when there’s massive unrest. If a “boots on the ground” assessment can be made fairly safely, this can be a very advantageous time to begin studying possibilities.

    Also, during a collapse, local businessmen and government officials are desperate and will cut virtually any deal with anybody, just to get a bit of money into their hands. Such deals are normally cancelled wholesale by the incoming government, after power has been transferred to them (often just for spite).

    So, for any investor, the country should ideally be researched both during and following the collapse and a decision made as to what investments to focus on. Then, when the new government has largely stabilized the country (the riots are over and commerce has begun to function normally), the greatest opportunities for investment occur. The country is desperate for inward investment, and opportunities abound.

    So, let’s have a look at a country that has already passed through its collapse stage and has stabilized.

    Cuba collapsed for much the same reasons as its neighbour, Venezuela is now collapsing. But that was back in the 1990s. An anomaly in Cuba’s case is that the government was not overturned and the re-stabilisation was left to the still-collectivist government. Being unable to admit that they’d caused the collapse, but desperately needing a recovery, the Castro government chose the obvious solution—capitalism. By this time, the once-committed communist Raul Castro advised his brother Fidel that collectivism was a failure and that they must adopt a free-market if the country was to recover.

    However, being unable to admit that the problem was of their own doing (they blamed the American blockade), they set about introducing free-market principles within the existing system.

    Over the years since that time, it’s become increasingly possible for Cubans to open their own businesses, and to pay the government taxes on the profits.

    Today, there are now so many cuentapropistas (business owners) in Cuba that the taxes generated have not only enriched many of the Cuban people, but have refloated the government. (Even a mid-level bureaucrat understands that the reason he’s been able to discard his thirty-year-old Russian Lada and now has a new Hyundai is due to the influx of tax revenue.) No one in Cuba has the cheek to call it “free-market,” but most everyone understands that the end of food shortages and the importation of such goods as appliances and stylish clothing is due to the cuentapropista revenue.

    So, then, why isn’t this big news in the larger world? Well, although the free market has been taking over the Cuban economy (from the bottom, up) for over a decade, the Castro government still maintains ownership of much of the real estate, still owns many businesses, and controls the military. However, the government businesses (as they are collectivist) are highly inefficient, so the flood of tourists prefer the privately run businesses, which are thriving.

    And the military is now in charge of renovating Havana’s old buildings for new shops—they’ve become a sort of urban public works department.

    Yet the claim internationally is that Cuba is still communist.

    Strictly speaking, this is so. But each year, more government businesses fold and more opportunities are given to allow restaurants, tourist accommodations, taxi services, farm cooperatives and factories to be started up privately by the Cuban people.

    The government not only condones the free-market development, but encourages it, as today, the butter on their own bread comes from tax receipts, not Russian subsidies.

    At present, the government still holds many areas of investment for itself. An outside investor cannot legally make an investment deal with a local unless he’s a “relation.” But the government creates opportunities and joint-ventures with outside investors for tourism, mining, telecommunications, energy, biotechnology, etc., and, in fact, each day cruise ships arrive in Havana Harbour from Miami, loaded with American tourists, whose countrymen are under the impression that they cannot enter Cuba legally.

    The anomaly in Cuba is that it’s a country that’s being reinvented from within, but without the customary announcements from the political leaders that the “rebirth” is underway.

    Raul Castro has just stepped down as president, but as I’d expected, he’ll stay on as the Secretary General of the Communist party until 2021, which would mean that he’ll continue to engineer the rebirth of Cuba from behind the scenes.

    After this date, the cloak of free-market secrecy may be tossed off in Cuba, and those who have invested at the bottom will watch their investments blossom.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Hugo Chavez took numerous American businesses. That is never an appropriate solution. So what do you mean the the arbiters were biased to the US? Chavez literally just plundered US businesses and didn't even pay them. He said he did it because they were "exploiting the workers." This is a historical fact. https://www.google.com/search?q=chav...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    I don't get these eyerolls. You can't have a functioning economy when anytime you are successful the government is going to take your business. That isn't debatable. Who is going to invest in a country like that? Socialism is 100% of the problem in Venezuela. Not 99%. 100%. The United States is 0% of Venezuela's problem.

    A coup is totally legitimate against Chavez. He should have had his head cut off and kicked around like a soccer ball. He should have gotten the Mussolini treatment.
    Btw, the US seizes private properties and bank accounts of foreign govts too, seizing private property is not unique to Venezuela. In the case of Venezuela, they understand how private property especially in vital sectors can be used by foreign govts to undermine the nation and cause unrest. You see what happened in Chile when the CIA was able to use the Chilean trucking industry to undermine the govt. These countries are virtually in a constant state of war playing defense all the time knowing that the US is unrelenting in their desire to overthrow them. These policies wouldn't be happening in peace time

    If you think the US states, the greatest country in the world and its allies carrying on a campaign to undermine the Venezuelan govt is contributing 0% of the country's economic problems, them I am really a Nigerian prince and a $5000 custom fees wired via western union to me is the only thing stopping me from sending you $25m for your effort.





    Some clips open minded people interested in this debate should view.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I don't know if you are talking to me, but I provided factual arguments to why socialism is the cause.

    You cannot seize private property on a mass scale and have a functioning economy. You are going to have capital flight out of the country. That happens every time. It happened in Zimbabwe. Price controls lead to shortages. It can't be any other way. It is non-debatable.

    Those are the least free countries in the world. North Korea is 180 out of 180. Communism does not work. This is a settled issue.

    Cliques? I like reading contrarian opinions. I like Zippyjuan's posts even if they sometimes are a little annoying. He makes me think and defend my view. What he doesn't do is try to justify Communism as a system. A reasonable person cannot hold that view.
    Lots of countries confiscate private properties all the time. Saudi Arabia did it a few years back and nothing bad happened to their economy. The problem comes when that confiscation is followed by international sanctions. The difference between Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe is that one was sanctioned to death by the US and international community and the other was supported by same community. Look up "The Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001". And believe me, if those sanctions are painless as some people on this thread are claiming, then the US and its allies wouldn't be doing it.

    Communism does not work as good as capitalism but communism along with stifling sanctions definitely will not work at all. Switch communism with just about any economic system and the results will be the same. That too is settled.

    I do not think you are part of the clique, when I see your post, I know u are actually going to try and debate me instead of replying with snark and name calling. The people I am talking about know exactly who they are.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    So according to your theory the US wasn't meddling in Venezuela until after Chavez was elected, then right after the election the US started meddling and that caused the economy to collapse? Chavez's massive confiscation of private businesses (and all sorts of other violations of private property rights) had nothing to do with it? C'mon man.

    How do you know the US meddled more in those bad countries compared to good countries like Switzerland or Canada or Singapore or Hong Kong? And if US governmental meddling is SO BAD that it is THE determining factor in the health of an economy why isn't the US economy the WORST OF ALL???? After all I'm pretty sure the US government meddles a lot more in the US compared to Venezuela or North Korea.
    My theory is that the US started meddling once Chavez started defying their orders. I am not sure when that exactly started but Chavez realized it and acted accordingly to avoid sabotage of the economy by US. The Venezuelan economy did not collapse during Chavez rule.

    Lets see, Canada, Switzerland, Columbia, France, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Hong Kong are client/compliant/captured states while Venezuela, Russia, Syria, North Korea, Sudan are not. Common sense says that you don't treat your friends the same way you treat your enemies. This stiff ain't rocket science.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    My theory is that the US started meddling once Chavez started defying their orders. I am not sure when that exactly started but Chavez realized it and acted accordingly to avoid sabotage of the economy by US. The Venezuelan economy did not collapse during Chavez rule.

    "Venezuela's Hugo Chavez tightens state control of food amid rocketing inflation and food shortages"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...shortages.html

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