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Thread: Tariff Wars- Round Three: Now Trump wants another $100 billion

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    U.S. aluminum prices are dropping, despite a 10% tariff imposed by President Donald Trump on the metal in early March intended to protect U.S. companies and allow for the creation of new manufacturing plants, one of his main promises during the 2016 presidential election.
    The president touted the falling aluminum costs — down 4% from when the White House first announced the tariffs — on Twitter early Friday morning.
    Despite the Aluminum Tariffs, Aluminum prices are DOWN 4%. People are surprised, I’m not! Lots of money coming into U.S. coffers and Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 6, 2018
    “Despite the Aluminum Tariffs, Aluminum prices are DOWN 4%. People are surprised, I’m not!” he wrote. “Lots of money coming into U.S. coffers and Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!”

    More at: https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics...-after-tariffs
    This deserves its own thread and please tag people from the old thread on these tariffs.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-b...ef-1522920600?
    Last edited by spudea; 04-06-2018 at 05:31 PM.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.



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  3. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    U.S. aluminum prices are dropping, despite a 10% tariff imposed by President Donald Trump on the metal in early March intended to protect U.S. companies and allow for the creation of new manufacturing plants, one of his main promises during the 2016 presidential election.
    The president touted the falling aluminum costs — down 4% from when the White House first announced the tariffs — on Twitter early Friday morning.
    Despite the Aluminum Tariffs, Aluminum prices are DOWN 4%. People are surprised, I’m not! Lots of money coming into U.S. coffers and Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 6, 2018
    “Despite the Aluminum Tariffs, Aluminum prices are DOWN 4%. People are surprised, I’m not!” he wrote. “Lots of money coming into U.S. coffers and Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!”

    More at: https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics...-after-tariffs
    Companies stockpiled what they could before the tariffs went into effect. "Delivered" prices are actually up 11% for the year. There was also a big run-up in price in anticipation of the tariffs.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-premium-jumps

    And when the cost of delivering the light-weight metal to American buyers is included, the all-in price is about 11 percent higher than a year ago. The Midwest premium has doubled in 2018 amid fears that tariffs will curtail imports, leaving domestic metal makers struggling to meet demand.


    “The global aluminum market was certainly substantially overbought on fears of Chinese supply constraints and cutbacks in production, which was exacerbated by tariff fears,” Tai Wong, the director of metals trading at BMO Capital Markets Corp., said by telephone.

    “Aluminum prices have dropped materially since the tariffs were announced due more to the fact that industrial metals overall have corrected, and aluminum specifically was solidly overbought for the past six to nine months on Chinese supply constraint fears in terms of the winter shutdowns,” he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post

    Half the crap I write here is just to entertain myself.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  4. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Companies stockpiled what they could before the tariffs went into effect. "Delivered" prices are actually up 11% for the year. There was also a big run-up in price in anticipation of the tariffs.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-premium-jumps



    Panic buying drove up the price and now it will drop back down.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Companies stockpiled what they could before the tariffs went into effect. "Delivered" prices are actually up 11% for the year. There was also a big run-up in price in anticipation of the tariffs.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-premium-jumps



    You mean to tell me that increasing taxes on a product doesnt lead to a price decline? Next thing zippy will school u guys on the fact that water is wet.

    Seriously guys, u need to question the stuff u read on the internet especially when it contradicts economics 101. Its one thing if an article said the tariffs spurred job creation and investment in US aluminium and steel industry.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  6. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You mean to tell me that increasing taxes on a product doesnt lead to a price decline? Next thing zippy will school u guys on the fact that water is wet.

    Seriously guys, u need to question the stuff u read on the internet especially when it contradicts economics 101. Its one thing if an article said the tariffs spurred job creation and investment in US aluminium and steel industry.
    When we are on a 1-1 trade ratio get back to me. Every little thing, gonna be alright.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  7. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    When we are on a 1-1 trade ratio get back to me. Every little thing, gonna be alright.
    What ratio are we on now? You know what would better for Trump to do. He can maybe put a flat rate 5% tariff on every chinese import and then demand that China do the same within a month or else cos at the point I doubt the tariffs are imbalanced as the MAGA/you ppl would like us to believe.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  8. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    What ratio are we on now?
    Come back to me when you can at least talk about trade imbalance.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  9. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Come back to me when you can at least talk about trade imbalance.
    Trade as in tariff imbalance? Or trade imbalance as they have the industrial ingenuity to create more stuff and subsequently sell it to us than we can sell back to them. Please clarify
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  10. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Next thing zippy will school u guys on the fact that water is wet.
    His misleading excepts are literally comparing different things. His linked source says the price of aluminum is down 7%. The "all in" cost including delivery isn't the same because of NON aluminum costs that have nothing to do with the tariffs. Then he shows another misleading graph of the "Midwest premium" which is a subset of aluminum prices and actually is included in the aluminum price quote where you get the DOWN 7% number.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  11. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    His misleading excepts are literally comparing different things. His linked source says the price of aluminum is down 7%. The "all in" cost including delivery isn't the same because of NON aluminum costs that have nothing to do with the tariffs. Then he shows another misleading graph of the "Midwest premium" which is a subset of aluminum prices and actually is included in the aluminum price quote where you get the DOWN 7% number.
    I am on my cell phone right now. But I googled aluminium price and got this. It seems like the price was already in a downtrend but it seems like something(who knows what) made it to spike up.

    https://www.fastmarkets.com/base-met...es-and-charts/

    Forget what zippy said. Look at the chart for yourself. I have always associated tax raises to price increase and if prices happen to come down then it is inspite of the tariffs and most likely would have decreased even more without it
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  12. #101

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    I can't believe the forum dedicated to Ron Paul doesn't know what the $#@! is going on with commodities. What do you guys think would happen to the price of gold if the fiat dollars tanked? What do you think would happen to aluminum pricing if the Chinese currency tanked? Right now western countries are divesting from China- anyone who doesn't is getting punished, even the Russian oligarchs. The only reason why Washington is even talking about tarrifs is because they are trying to stabilize the prices of commodities so that they can pick winners and losers.

  13. #102

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    Escalating tensions between the United States and China have triggered a flurry of U.S. soybean purchases by European buyers, in one of the first signs that trade tariff threats lobbed between the world's top two economies are disrupting global commodity trade flows.News of the sales, confirmed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture on Friday, helped to underpin benchmark Chicago Board of Trade soybean prices <0#S:> after U.S. President Donald Trump threatened to slap tariffs on an additional $100 billion of Chinese goods.
    The USDA said 458,000 tonnes of U.S. soybeans were sold to undisclosed destinations, which traders and grains analysts said included EU soybean processors such as the Netherlands and Germany.
    If the entire volume is confirmed to be going to the European Union, it would be the largest one-off sale to the bloc in more than 15 years, according to USDA data. The USDA could not immediately be reached for comment.
    "We're seeing a realignment of trade," largely because the politics is driving up Brazilian soybean prices, said Jack Scoville, analyst with the Price Futures Group.

    More at: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-chi...120814218.html
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #103

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    But in spite of signs of renewed economic activity in March, the country’s debt build-up has provoked increasing concern amongst Beijing’s policy makers, as it points to an underlying long-term financial fragility, particularly if trade war pressures intensify. Just last October during the Communist Party Plenary, Zhou Xiaochuan, then head of the country’s central bank, warned of a “Minsky moment“:
    “When there are too many pro-cyclical factors in an economy, cyclical fluctuations will be amplified. If we are too optimistic when things go smoothly, tensions build up, which could lead to a sharp correction, what we call a ‘Minsky Moment’. That’s what we should particularly defend against.”
    To elaborate on Zhou’s statement, the economist Hyman Minsky described how once the debt “disease” goes metastatic, there will come a “Minsky moment” (a term originally coined by economist Paul McCulley) when euphoria gives way to concern and then to panic liquidation and credit revulsion. When that dynamic is in full flower, policy makers are powerless to avert it, no matter how much they want to bring the punchbowl back. Governor Zhou’s public warning was no doubt in response to recent rapid increase of debt which, according to Professor L. Randall Wray, “increased from 162 percent to 260 percent of GDP between 2008 and 2016,” and remains “a topic of discussion, if not deep concern.”
    It may seem odd to warn of a Chinese slowdown, given the recent renewed surge in exports and the corresponding rise in both the manufacturing and non-manufacturing purchasing managing indices (both the manufacturing and service gauges remain above 50, and therefore indicative of robust economic activity). But these gains ought to be viewed against the backdrop of a more hostile external environment for Chinese manufactured goods. Discussing the recently imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum, the New York Times reported that Trump has already provided brief exemptions to “Canada, Mexico, the European Union, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and South Korea” (countries that “account for more than half of the $29 billion in steel sold to the United States in 2017”), which reinforces the idea that it is largely China that remains the major target of Trump’s economic nationalists.
    In that context, China’s ramped-up production in March could well be interpreted as an effort to evade the tariffs by exporting products into the U.S. under the wire, suggested economist Raymond Yeung of the ANZ group. If so, that could provoke further aggressive responses from Trump’s trade hawks, especially if it results in an expansion of the bilateral trade surplus with the U.S. Adding to the pressures, Reuters reports that “Top Trump administration officials are asking China to cut tariffs on imported cars, allow foreign majority ownership of financial services firms and buy more U.S.-made semiconductors in negotiations to avoid plans to slap tariffs on a host of Chinese goods and a potential trade war.”
    But how serious are these threats? Are they simply a case of “smoke and mirrors,” as the economist Dani Rodrik has suggested? China itself appears to be taking the risk of a trade war seriously, imposing retaliatory tariffs of up to 25 percent on 128 food imports from the U.S., an understandable negotiating posture given its position as a major creditor nation. But the very fact of its creditor status might presage problems for Beijing. If anything, history has shown that it is trade surplus nations, not debtors, that tend to be the biggest casualties of trade wars, as this account of America’s ill-fated Smoot-Hawley tariff imposition illustrates:
    “World War I… made America the world’s creditor. The center of the financial world moved from London to New York, and billions of dollars were owed to large U.S. banks. The Smoot-Hawley Tariff threw inter-allied war-debt repayment relations into limbo by shutting down world trade. An international moratorium on debtor repayments to the United States froze billions in foreign assets, thus weakening the financial solvency of the American banks. Specifically, over $2 billion worth of German loans were obstructed by Germany’s inability to acquire dollars through trade to repay its debts. This same scenario played out in many other countries as well.”
    China today occupies a creditor position comparable to the U.S. in the 1930s. Trump was certainly exaggerating when he suggested that “trade wars are good and easy to win.” But the U.S. is a largely self-sufficient economy; China is not—which is what Trump was implicitly highlighting when he made his comments (albeit, typically oversimplified and ignoring the fact that the U.S. itself still has quasi-bubbleized assets and very high levels of indebtedness).
    Even if the trade war threat turns out to be more talk than action, there are other ways in which Beijing might risk a Minsky-style deflation. There is a very old idea from business cycle theory prior to the Second World War that private sector over-investment can become so unsustainably high that even without a fiscal/monetary shock, there could be a fall in autonomous investment. Once that begins, accelerator multiplier dynamics can lead to a cumulative economic contraction even if interest rates plummet and monetary conditions ease.
    There are grounds for thinking this is an idea whose time has come again. Though fixed investment is very low in the U.S., it is not so globally, especially in China, which has a condition of over-investment that is historically unprecedented. A decline in global autonomous investment that threatens accelerator and multiplier dynamics should follow.
    Some would argue that the global capex overinvestment problem is purely a product of low interest rates, but in China’s case, it is also a product of their economic model. Although the reforms undertaken over the past few decades have given China the appearance of a market economy, it is not in many important aspects, notably in regards to the allocation of capital, which is not market-determined.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...s-domestically
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #104

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    Chinese President Xi Jinping on Tuesday promised to open the country's economy further and lower import tariffs on products including cars, in a speech that comes amid rising trade tensions between China and the United States.Xi also said China would raise the foreign ownership limit in the automobile sector "as soon as possible" and push previously announced measures to open the financial sector.
    "This year, we will considerably reduce auto import tariffs, and at the same time reduce import tariffs on some other products," Xi said at the Chinese Boao Forum for Asia in Hainan province.

    The comments sent U.S. stock futures, the dollar and Asian shares higher.

    More at: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china...4--sector.html
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Sort of like their soy tariff.
    Rut roh, maybe those genetically socialist chinamen aren't so stupid after all:

    http://fortune.com/2018/04/12/white-...versal-on-tpp/

    ...

    Earlier in the day, Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse had told reporters that Trump was reconsidering the withdrawal from the trade agreement, which Obama Administration had negotiated with 11 other Pacific Rim countries to promote free trade by reducing barriers between them. ďThe President multiple times reaffirmed in general to all of us, and looked at Larry Kudlow, and said Larry go get it done,Ē Sasse said after exiting a White House meeting with the President about trade and agriculture that he attended with several governors and congressional leaders who represent states that they say will be adversely impacted by the Presidentís recently announced tariffs.

    Iowa Sen. Joni Ernst, who also attended the meeting, said afterwards that she had urged the President to reconsider negotiating the TPP because of concerns by constituents about the tariffs.
    Throwback Signature: Before They Were Trumpkins Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Sorry that your candidate is a fascist and you can't even see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I heard he called for 30k troops in Syria in the debate this evening. /Deal breaker.

  17. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Rut roh, maybe those genetically socialist chinamen aren't so stupid after all:

    http://fortune.com/2018/04/12/white-...versal-on-tpp/
    The soy tariff will hurt them more than us, anything they do will since they run a giant trade surplus with us but the soy tariff will be worse than the rest.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #107

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    Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is preparing a fresh trade complaint - again under Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 - the same section of the trade act under which the US filed its complaint about China's intellectual property abuses, aka the first salvo in the US's trade war. This time, Lighthizer is aiming at China's unfair restrictions on US companies trying to establish a foothold in China in high-tech industries like cloud computing. As a general rule, China requires foreign firms to partner with a domestic firm in a "revenue-sharing agreement" before they can gain entry to the Chinese market. By comparison, the US allows Chinese firms like Alibaba to function almost totally unfettered.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...ina-trade-spat
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #108

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    The tit-for-tat trade spat between the US and China continued late Tuesday when the US revealed that it is starting a new investigation into whether steel wheels produced in China are illegally dumped in the US - an investigation that's being carried out at the behest of Accuride and Maxion Wheels, two US vehicle components suppliers, Reuters reported.
    In addition to the investigation, the Department of Commerce also revealed on Tuesday that producers of common alloy aluminum sheet imported from China enjoy anticompetitive state subsidies as high as 113.3%, based on findings from an investigation launched in November.

    The news comes a day after China's Ministry of Commerce announced that it would impose a massive 178.6% anti-dumping tariff on imported sorghum, a grain used to feed Chinese pigs and other livestock, which in turn was in response to the US banning exports to Chinese telecom giant ZTE.
    The two companies initially petitioned the Department of Commerce and the US International Trade Commission earlier this month, according to Tire Business - a trade publication that covers the tire production and other segments of the auto parts industry.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...l-wheels-china
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    will hurt them more than us
    I'm sure that Falkenhayn said the same on the eve of Verdun.

  21. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm sure that Falkenhayn said the same on the eve of Verdun.
    And Hannibal at Cannae.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And Hannibal at Cannae.
    And they were both right, but it didn't work out well in the end for either, did it?

  23. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And they were both right, but it didn't work out well in the end for either, did it?
    War is complex and trying to use at as a metaphor for a trade war only muddles things further, but one thing is clear if someone else starts the war you are better off defending yourself and trying to get them to come to the peace table than you are if you just surrender.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    War is complex and trying to use at as a metaphor for a trade war only muddles things further, but one thing is clear if someone else starts the war you are better off defending yourself and trying to get them to come to the peace table than you are if you just surrender.

  25. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If you prefer suicide to surrender or defending yourself that is your business.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you prefer suicide to surrender or defending yourself that is your business.
    No, I'm saying that the protectionist is committing suicide.

    Or, perhaps more on point, cutting off his nose to spite his face.

    There is no question that Chinese peasants will be poorer as a result of these higher taxes, but so will American peasants.

    It would be nice if politicians weren't demagogues, playing to popular ignorance, and tried rather to do what was best for the people.

  27. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No, I'm saying that the protectionist is committing suicide.

    Or, perhaps more on point, cutting off his nose to spite his face.

    There is no question that Chinese peasants will be poorer as a result of these higher taxes, but so will American peasants.

    It would be nice if politicians weren't demagogues, playing to popular ignorance, and tried rather to do what was best for the people.
    It's not suicide, we got along fine while China was still in the stone age and we will get along fine without them now if we have to, if China disappeared tomorrow it would cause short term problems but it would stop the death by a thousand cuts that they have been inflicting on our economy.
    Letting them continue to destroy us is suicide.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's not suicide, we got along fine while China was still in the stone age and we will get along fine without them now if we have to, if China disappeared tomorrow it would cause short term problems but it would stop the death by a thousand cuts that they have been inflicting on our economy.
    Letting them continue to destroy us is suicide.
    Back when China was in the stone age (i.e. communism, excessive state control of the economy), what did our government spend?

    What was our debt?

    What was the regulatory burden?

    ...how's it now thirty years later?

    Without major and politically impossible reforms, the standard of living of Americans would/will dramatically decline without cheap imports.

    This is now the land of the indebted and the home of the foot stamp recipient.

    And that is not the fault of any foreigner, dear Brutus.

  29. #118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Back when China was in the stone age (i.e. communism, excessive state control of the economy), what did our government spend?

    What was our debt?

    What was the regulatory burden?

    ...how's it now thirty years later?

    Without major and politically impossible reforms, the standard of living of Americans would/will dramatically decline without cheap imports.

    This is now the land of the indebted and the home of the foot stamp recipient.

    And that is not the fault of any foreigner, dear Brutus.
    Then you are arguing that we should continue to enable our drug habit with the second more dangerous drug, it will make you feel great...........until you OD.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then you are arguing that we should continue to enable our drug habit with the second more dangerous drug, it will make you feel great...........until you OD.
    Free-ish trade ain't the drug Huckleberry


  31. #120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Free-ish trade ain't the drug Huckleberry

    Subsidized trade is and China is a pusher.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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