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Thread: Trump: 'We're going to be guarding our border with the military' until wall complete

  1. #31
    So what exactly is the military going to do? Shoot trespassers? Catch and release according to federal law? If so, whats the point?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So what exactly is the military going to do? Shoot trespassers? Catch and release according to federal law? If so, whats the point?
    We could also throw them in prisons. And they can work off their sentence by building a wall.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    I have no problem with Mexicans and think the border Wall is stupid, but if the choice is between the Military being overseas being a offensive imperialistic force, or staying at home and protecting the borders I’m voting B every time.
    He's going to use the National Guard for it, which means federalizing more troops and spending even more money, not redirecting the active force away from overseas tasks to domestic tasks.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So what exactly is the military going to do? Shoot trespassers? Catch and release according to federal law? If so, whats the point?
    Trump (and his neocon advisors) are rather fond of Israeli tactics and strategies...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    He's going to use the National Guard for it, which means federalizing more troops and spending even more money, not redirecting the active force away from overseas tasks to domestic tasks.
    Of course. We certainly wouldn't want to jeopardize national defense, by bringing our troops home to defend our nation.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Trump (and his neocon advisors) are rather fond of Israeli tactics and strategies...
    We're going to bulldoze their homes and claim their land as ours?

    Not a bad strategy actually.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Seems like a whole lotta screaming from DC for something not endangering- maybe to take our eye off the man behind the curtain?
    It seems to be that the "man behind the curtain" (hint, it's not Trump) is doing everything he can to prevent a border wall from being built.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    I’m alright with this.

    I have no problem with Mexicans and think the border Wall is stupid, but if the choice is between the Military being overseas being a offensive imperialistic force, or staying at home and protecting the borders I’m voting B every time.

    Still think that welfare is the cause of mass movement over the borders. End welfare and the phony drug war and the need for a fence is completely evaporated.
    It's hard to disagree with that.

    But military protection of the border shouldn't involve stopping peaceful people from crossing it.

    I agree with Ron Paul's position that we should be allowed to cross the border without even having to show ID to anyone.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So what exactly is the military going to do? Shoot trespassers? Catch and release according to federal law? If so, whats the point?
    It's unlikely that Trump has thought through those nitty gritty details.

  12. #40
    http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...403-story.html

    Federal law limits Trump's proposal to send troops to guard border

    President Donald Trump on Tuesday said he hopes to send members of the military to guard the southwest border — an escalation in his push to reduce the number of immigrants coming to the U.S. But without sign off from Congress or Gov. Jerry Brown, federal law will likely block the president’s plans, at least in California.

    Since he took office, Trump has criticized U.S. laws that allow people to come to the border and ask for asylum. After reports of a large caravan of migrants traveling through Mexico to seek asylum from violence-stricken Central American countries surfaced over Easter, the president reinforced his push to change what he called “weak” immigration laws.

    Trump said he planned to meet with Gen. Jim Mattis, the defense secretary, on Tuesday to discuss options for installing troops at the U.S.-Mexico border.

    “The Mexican border is very unprotected by our laws,” Trump said during a news conference with the presidents of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. “We have horrible, horrible, and very unsafe, laws in the United States.”

    The White House confirmed that Trump’s strategy involves mobilizing the National Guard.

    Trump said the military would remain at the border until his promised border wall is completed. Though Congress has granted $1.6 billion in funding for new and replacement fencing along the border, Trump has not been able to get funding to build a wall fashioned after his prototypes in Otay Mesa.

    Everard Meade, director of the Trans Border Institute at University of San Diego, said the president will also have a difficult time installing troops at the border.

    “They’ve been using military metaphors and talking about invasions — in that sense, it’s not a surprise, but when you move from political rhetoric to actual policy, I don’t see a legal way to actually do it,” Meade said. “The U.S. Armed Forces are far too professional and risk-averse and rule-bound to accept some vague cowboy mission down there. That’s just not what they do.”

    The Posse Comitatus Act, which passed after the Civil War to keep federal troops from policing the South, limits federal troops’ deployment on U.S. soil and forbids using them to enforce domestic laws.

    The President can deploy troops if there’s an insurrection or invasion on U.S. soil. Congress later gave the military the ability to provide equipment and personnel for certain drug enforcement operations. The Coast Guard is exempt from the act’s restrictions.

    The estimated 1,200 migrants in the caravan would not count as an invasion, Meade said. Border Patrol has also apprehended significantly fewer unauthorized crossers since arrests peaked in 2000, according to data from the agency, which Meade said would also argue against sending military.

    Governors can deploy the National Guard in their states to respond to emergencies. Previous presidents have, with governor sign off, used the National Guard to supplement Border Patrol agents during hiring pushes.



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  14. #41
    On Wednesday, Department Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen announced that President Donald Trump is sending the National Guard to protect the United States' southern border and also indicated that DHS is looking into constructing military installations along the border.

    "What [Trump] meant is there are some lands that the Defense Department owns right on the border where we see illicit activity," Nielsen said during a White House press briefing. "We're looking into options for the military to build wall or military installations on the border."
    On using military appropriations to fund construction of proposed border wall, DHS Sec. Nielsen tells @jonkarl: "We're looking into options for the military to build wall on military installations on the border." https://t.co/VFkTztU5Xx pic.twitter.com/4ww3Neys7j
    — ABC News (@ABC) April 4, 2018
    More at: https://www.dailywire.com/news/29077...ontent=2215152
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post
    No, the border isn't in Mexico, but legally, as I understand it, we would have to be at war with our neighbor in order for the military to be stationed and engaging in defense activities (not training) domestically (on our side of the border) or it would run afoul of the Posse Comitatus restriction.
    Posse Comitatus is about domestic law enforcement. Putting troops on the border is a purely military action and fully within the President's authority. You don't need any Congressional input because it is simply moving troops around and not engaging in a war.

    In fact, the most Constitutional thing Trump could do is withdraw our overseas troops and station all of them on our border. Then we would go back to having a fully Constitutional military.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    Posse Comitatus is about domestic law enforcement. Putting troops on the border is a purely military action and fully within the President's authority. You don't need any Congressional input because it is simply moving troops around and not engaging in a war.

    In fact, the most Constitutional thing Trump could do is withdraw our overseas troops and station all of them on our border. Then we would go back to having a fully Constitutional military.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

    18 U.S. Code § 1385 - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus


    Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
    Enforcing immigration laws would be a violation of the Act.

    If he wants to use the National Guard, the Governors of the respective states would have to agree.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-04-2018 at 05:03 PM.

  17. #44
    Oh lawdy, is Congress just now taking offense, after decades of unconstitutional wars were waged under their noses w/ approvals from almost everyone?


    What makes the basic human rights of brown Catholics down south more important than brown Muslims overseas? (Not that Congress respect anybody's rights.)
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 04-04-2018 at 05:30 PM.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385


    Enforcing immigration laws would be a violation of the Act.



    If he wants to use the National Guard, the Governors of the respective states would have to agree.
    except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution

    A4S4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;



    Keep DREAMing Juan.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A4S4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;



    Keep DREAMing Juan.
    Maybe we should hold the United States accountable for every state being a Republic first?

    Then, guess what? Most problems are easily solved.
    There is no spoon.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A4S4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;



    Keep DREAMing Juan.

    invasion
    noun [ C ] US ​ /ɪnˈveɪ·ʒən/

    the act of entering a place by force, often in large numbers
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...glish/invasion

    Definition of invasion

    1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasion

    1. variable noun
    If there is an invasion of a country, a foreign army enters it by force
    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...glish/invasion

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385



    Enforcing immigration laws would be a violation of the Act.

    If he wants to use the National Guard, the Governors of the respective states would have to agree.
    A long time ago Governors had that kind of control, I'm pretty sure the President can now use the Guard without the Governors' consent.
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  23. #49
    Definition of invasion

    1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder

    2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful



    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasion


    from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition

    • n. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
    • n. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
    • n. An intrusion or encroachment.

    from Wiktionary, Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License

    • n. A military action consisting of armed forces of one geopolitical entity entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of conquering territory or altering the established government.
    • n. The entry of a large group into a new area.

    from the GNU version of the Collaborative International Dictionary of English

    • n. The act of invading; the act of encroaching upon the rights or possessions of another; encroachment; trespass.
    • n. A warlike or hostile entrance into the possessions or domains of another; the incursion of an army for conquest or plunder.
    • n. The incoming or first attack of anything hurtful or pernicious.

    from The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia

    • n. The act of invading a country or territory as an enemy; hostile entrance or intrusion.
    • n. Hence A harmful incursion of any kind; an onset or attack, as of disease.
    • n. Infringement by intrusion; encroachment by entering into or taking away what belongs to another: as, an invasion of one's retirement or rights.
    • n. In phytogeography, the phenomenon of the movement of plants from an area of one character into one of a different character, and their colonization in the latter.

    from WordNet 3.0 Copyright 2006 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.

    • n. the act of invading; the act of an army that invades for conquest or plunder
    • n. any entry into an area not previously occupied
    • n. (pathology) the spread of pathogenic microorganisms or malignant cells to new sites in the body



    https://www.wordnik.com/words/invasion


    invasion

    (ɪnˈveɪʒən) n1. (Military) the act of invading with armed forces
    2. any encroachment or intrusion: an invasion of rats.

    3. the onset or advent of something harmful, esp of a disease
    4. (Pathology) pathol the spread of cancer from its point of origin into surrounding tissues
    5. (Botany) the movement of plants to a new area or to an area to which they are not native

    Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014


    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/invasion



    • invasion

      noun

      • 1An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
        ‘Napoleon's disastrous invasion of Russia in 1812’

        mass noun ‘in 1546 England had to be defended from invasion’




      • 1.1 An incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity. ‘there was a brief pitch invasion when Sunderland scored’


    • 1.2 An unwelcome intrusion into another's domain. ‘random drug testing of employees is an unwarranted invasion of privacy’




    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/invasion
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    A long time ago Governors had that kind of control, I'm pretty sure the President can now use the Guard without the Governors' consent.
    Obama and Bush both sent National Guard troops to the border for short periods of time- and they worked with the governors on it. The governors have to foot the bill if they go.

    Are they needed? Border interdictions are at record lows.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/4/4/1719979...er-trump-legal




    President Trump is signing a proclamation to authorize the use of state National Guard forces to protect the US-Mexico border — where inflows of immigrants are at historic lows.

    You read that right.

    The president has the legal authority to do this, as long as governors of border states acquiesce — and agree to foot the bill. (Given that three of the four governors of southwestern border states are Republicans, their agreement looks likely.) But just because it’s legal doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea.

    Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said on Wednesday, announcing the mobilization, that “the threat” of drug smuggling and illegal entry “is real.” But it’s not clear precisely what threat the administration is trying to address with a National Guard mobilization.
    Both of Trump’s predecessors got state governors to mobilize National Guard troops at the border, as Vox’s Tara Golshan has explained. George W. Bush called National Guard troops to the border in May 2006, and Barack Obama mobilized 1,200 National Guard troops for border enforcement in May 2010. (In 2014, Texas Gov. Rick Perry mobilized 1,000 National Guard members to the border to help process unaccompanied children from Central America entering the US.)

    National Guard troops aren’t sent to the border to literally fight off immigrants — that’s still illegal. They’re not even sent to the border to catch immigrants; only Border Patrol agents are authorized to do that. So during previous mobilizations, the National Guard has done a mix of surveillance and intelligence work to help Border Patrol agents track down immigrants, and support work to help process those immigrants once they’re apprehended.
    Deploying the National Guard to help guard the border won’t have a huge impact on drug smuggling, which is much more common through ports of entry — airports, seaports, road crossings — than by sneaking across the border. And it won’t prevent people who are trying to cross the US to seek asylum from being able to do so.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-04-2018 at 06:10 PM.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obama and Bush both sent National Guard troops to the border for short periods of time- and they worked with the governors on it. The governors have to foot the bill if they go.

    Are they needed? Border interdictions are at record lows.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/4/4/1719979...er-trump-legal

    doesn't really address what I wrote.

    as in, a Governor could try to prevent using his Guard forces, but the President has ultimate say.
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  26. #52
    Bush spent over $1 billion on national guard troops for the border.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/03/polit...ush/index.html

    2006: In a national address, President George W. Bush announces plans to deploy 6,000 troops

    Name: Operation Jump Start

    When it happened: June 2006-July 2008

    Cost: $1.2 billion

    Who was deployed: 6,000 National Guard troops deployed to California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

    Assists with undocumented immigrant apprehensions: 186,814 (11.7% of the total apprehensions on the Southwest land border in that period)

    Assists with drug seizures: 316,364 pounds of marijuana (9.4% of all marijuana seized on the Southwest border in that period)


    2010: President Obama orders the deployment of up to 1,200 troops to the US-Mexico border

    Name: Operation Phalanx

    When it happened: Initially from July 2010-June 30, 2011, then extended

    Cost: $110 million for the first year

    Who was deployed: Initially 1,200 National Guard troops. In 2012, the number of troops was scaled back as the focus shifted from boots on the ground to aerial surveillance.

    Assists with undocumented immigrant apprehensions: 17,887 in the first 11 months (5.9% of the total apprehensions on the Southwest land border in that period)

    Assists with drug seizures: 56,342 pounds of marijuana in the first 11 months (2.6% of all marijuana seized on the Southwest border in that period)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Bush spent over $1 billion on national guard troops for the border.
    Always thought it was interesting that none of this happened after 9-11. That was my first clue, as a kid, that something was not right.
    There is no spoon.

  28. #54
    The border is leaking like crazy! Massive, record numbers swarming across! Actually it is a distraction- an excuse to justify spending more taxpayer money.

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-04-2018 at 06:36 PM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    Posse Comitatus is about domestic law enforcement. Putting troops on the border is a purely military action and fully within the President's authority.
    If the troops will not be enforcing a law, what will they be doing and how?
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    He's going to use the National Guard for it, which means federalizing more troops and spending even more money, not redirecting the active force away from overseas tasks to domestic tasks.
    As far as I know it would keep troops from overseas because the Guard and Reserve have been in the overseas rotations for a couple decades based on the units within 60 miles of me .



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    doesn't really address what I wrote.

    as in, a Governor could try to prevent using his Guard forces, but the President has ultimate say.
    The Gov here has his own . A guard Reserve . ( IGR , Indiana Guard Reserve , formerly known as Indiana Legion or Liberty Guard) .
    Last edited by oyarde; 04-04-2018 at 08:39 PM.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    As far as I know it would keep troops from overseas because the Guard and Reserve have been in the overseas rotations for a couple decades based on the units within 60 miles of me .
    There is only one large guard unit deployed overseas right now that I know of; they're from PA. Other than that there's individuals and small units.

    Overall only a very small part of the military is deploying compared to a decade ago or even 5 years ago.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    The Gov here has his own . A guard Reserve . ( IGR , Indiana Guard Reserve , formerly known as Indiana Legion or Liberty Guard) .

    Doesn't sound very trustworthy.
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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  35. #60
    Mexico says US troops on border won’t be armed
    https://apnews.com/b45463c479584daf9...&utm_medium=AP


    The Mexican foreign ministry says U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen has told Mexico’s top diplomat that U.S. National Guard troops being deployed to the border “will not carry arms or carry out migration or customs control activities.”

    Mexican Foreign Secretary Luis Videgaray is in Washington on a visit. A foreign ministry statement issued Wednesday night says Nielsen told Videgaray that the troops will only be providing support for Department of Homeland Security work.

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