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Thread: If there was ever a Libertarian religion, this is it.

  1. #1

    If there was ever a Libertarian religion, this is it.

    The pre-islamic religion of Iran:

    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/



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  3. #2
    IDK about that. Sassanian soldiers (Zoroastrians) were appalled by the amount of pornography they found when they looted a Roman camp.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  4. #3
    Choosing a religion with how it reflects your secular/political views is a bit counter productive. We choose a religion because we submit to the higher power and understand our worldviews are rife with biases.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    Choosing a religion with how it reflects your secular/political views is a bit counter productive. We choose a religion because we submit to the higher power and understand our worldviews are rife with biases.
    Who is this "we"? There are a great many reasons people choose a religion having nothing to do with what you said. I would even argue that most people "choose" a religion entirely based off family history and local culture. Choosing one because it aligns with your existing secular/political views makes just as much as sense anything else.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Who is this "we"? There are a great many reasons people choose a religion having nothing to do with what you said. I would even argue that most people "choose" a religion entirely based off family history and local culture. Choosing one because it aligns with your existing secular/political views makes just as much as sense anything else.
    We [should] choose a religion...

    Try to read between the lines, what I was saying wasn't that unclear.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    We [should] choose a religion...
    Try to read between the lines, what I was saying wasn't that unclear.
    Careful now, you are letting your biases affect your worldviews. I completely disagree.

  8. #7
    I know what we shouldn't do: indoctrinate kids into religion/convince others to join your religion with a thousand lies by omission. Both of which probably account for 99%+ of the believers of any religion.

  9. #8
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    I personally find Zoroastrianism to be very interesting.

    http://www.avesta.org/
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones




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  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I know what we shouldn't do: indoctrinate kids into religion/convince others to join your religion with a thousand lies by omission. Both of which probably account for 99%+ of the believers of any religion.
    Abrahamic Religions mostly.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    IDK about that. Sassanian soldiers (Zoroastrians) were appalled by the amount of pornography they found when they looted a Roman camp.
    Quite a few people here are as well.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I know what we shouldn't do: indoctrinate kids into religion/convince others to join your religion with a thousand lies by omission. Both of which probably account for 99%+ of the believers of any religion.
    That's nonsense. As a parent your job is to promulgate your views, value, and yes faith, into your children. You do this because you genuinely believe it to be true and right.

    If you're wrong, then when they're of age they will work through that themselves. That's part of being an adult and synthesizing everything you've been taught and learned.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    We [should] choose a religion...

    Try to read between the lines, what I was saying wasn't that unclear.
    Clear enough,, but I don't agree..

    IF you seek truth you will find religions,, Those that seek truth and seek God,, and those that obscure Him, and those that prey on seekers.
    If you reject religion you find peace,, Seek God,, and you will meet others on the path.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Clear enough,, but I don't agree..

    IF you seek truth you will find religions,, Those that seek truth and seek God,, and those that obscure Him, and those that prey on seekers.
    If you reject religion you find peace,, Seek God,, and you will meet others on the path.
    I'm an exception to this. I've found a lot more peace in Orthodoxy than I ever did trying to do it alone. Thousands of other catechumen have had the same experience. Peace on your path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I'm an exception to this. I've found a lot more peace in Orthodoxy than I ever did trying to do it alone. Thousands of other catechumen have had the same experience. Peace on your path.
    For some the organized Churches work.. All have some truth. all have their error. Seek truth and seek God and He will be found everywhere.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    I personally find Zoroastrianism to be very interesting.

    http://www.avesta.org/
    Zoroastrianism is truly based upon free will in that God (Ahura Mazda) seeks the assistance of Mankind in perfecting creation but there is no reward for those who accept the offer nor any punishment for those who don't. Punishment is for those who violate the rights of others and consists of having their soul cleansed of evil by fire. Therefore Ahura Mazda does not demand or even desire worship but merely wants Mankind to be virtuous for it's own sake. It is not an exaggeration to say that Zoroastrianism is based on the non-aggression principle. Unlike most concepts of God, Ahura Mazda is all good and therefore is not all powerful. There is a dark power named Angra Mainyu. It is not clear from the Gathas that Angra Mainyu is an entity, such as Satan but may be simply the absence of virtue.

    One of the reasons Zoroastrianism is known mostly by its influence on other religions, which is a controversial subject is because under the Achmenaeid kings of the first Persian Empire, when the religion was adopted as the state religion is that it was not forced upon subject peoples but rather they were permitted to follow their own gods and customs. However its influence today is greater than the numbers. Since Ahura Mazda does not require worship and only seeks good behavior, then it is entirely reasonable to be a Zoroastrian and a member of some other religion. This is one of the reasons that some Zoroastrians, especially the Indian Parsee, do not permit conversion. They say (correctly) that if you are a Christian, be a good one and if you are a Muslim, the same. However they are incorrect when they say that it is an affront to God to convert from the religion you were born into. Not only does this conflict with free will but there is absolutely nothing in any Zoroastrian writings that say that it is a blood religion. Conversion is permitted by Iranians (although illegal in Iran if you were born a Muslim).

    Today in Iran is Nooruz, the Persian new year. It is the most popular holiday in Iran and the basis of the Zoroastrian calendar which is still followed to this day.

    PS, The Japanese car is named after the Persian God.
    Last edited by Vieux Canard; 03-20-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    That's nonsense. As a parent your job is to promulgate your views, value, and yes faith, into your children. You do this because you genuinely believe it to be true and right.

    If you're wrong, then when they're of age they will work through that themselves. That's part of being an adult and synthesizing everything you've been taught and learned.
    How about teaching values to your children without threatening them with eternal damnation in hell and telling them that apostasy merits death and teaching them all sorts of impossible fables about the universe instead of what we know to have happened based on archaeology, geology, history, cosmology etc..



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  20. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    How about teaching values to your children without threatening them with eternal damnation in hell and telling them that apostasy merits death and teaching them all sorts of impossible fables about the universe instead of what we know to have happened based on archaeology, geology, history, cosmology etc..
    I am not aware of my parents ever telling me that if I ate beef I'd burn in hell forever. In fact they openly let me.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    I am not aware of my parents ever telling me that if I ate beef I'd burn in hell forever. In fact they openly let me.
    not all religions are the same, and not all parents will teach their religion in the same way. Some parts of religion are good, and some are bad. But I would say it is certainly a net negative overall.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    For some the organized Churches work.. All have some truth. all have their error. Seek truth and seek God and He will be found everywhere.
    I like that.
    And wholeheartedly agree with you.
    There is only one kind of freedom and that's individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator
    and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it. -Ron Paul

    RAND 20/20

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    not all religions are the same, and not all parents will teach their religion in the same way. Some parts of religion are good, and some are bad. But I would say it is certainly a net negative overall.
    o rlly? Many of man's greatest achievements in the arts, sciences, and humanities were made by devoutly religious men and women. Think the sacred works of Bach, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. Gutenberg's efforts to mass produce the Bible led to the discovery of modern printing press technology in the West. Modern music notation used all over the world developed based on notation for Roman Catholic plainchant/Gregorian chant etc, etc.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 03-20-2018 at 09:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    o rlly? Many of man's greatest achievements in the arts, sciences, and humanities were made by devoutly religious men and women. Think the sacred works of Bach, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. Gutenberg's efforts to mass produce the Bible led to the discovery of modern printing press technology in the West. Modern music notation used all over the world developed based on notation for Roman Catholic plainchant/Gregorian chant etc, etc.
    Men (and women) of Faith..
    Yes many are in religions,, It is Faith in Christ that blesses the works of my hand. and made me a master of my craft.
    There is Faith in God,,
    There is Faith in Institutions
    There is Faith in the State
    Faith in Teachers,

    Mine is in God and in His Christ.. not in men,, nor the institutions of men. and am wary of teachers having heard many.

    It is based on the Foundation that Jesus told my namesake of,

    When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
    They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you? Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”…

    Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.…
    It was revealed to me that Christ died for sin,, and set me free. Revelation Knowledge.
    The Foundation that all is built on.

    And I walked in a Maximum Security Prison as a Free Man with this knowledge.

    Religions are mans drift back into the error of Nimrod,, follow the leader
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    o rlly? Many of man's greatest achievements in the arts, sciences, and humanities were made by devoutly religious men and women. Think the sacred works of Bach, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. Gutenberg's efforts to mass produce the Bible led to the discovery of modern printing press technology in the West. Modern music notation used all over the world developed based on notation for Roman Catholic plainchant/Gregorian chant etc, etc.
    Most of those devoutly religious weren't white christian Europeans.

    Printing presses had been used since the Tang Dynasty in China

    White Christians did not invent the number zero known as Shuunya in sanskrit.

    White Christians did not invent the republic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahajanapada

    White Christians did not invent Hindu Arabic Numerals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%...numeral_system

    White Christians were not the first linguists
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

    And Western Civilization did not produce the highest quality of artwork. Siddham Calligraphy and Mandalas produced in China and Japan are far better and require a greater degree of effort than anything produced in Europe between 500 AD and 1500 AD.
    Last edited by Lamp; 03-21-2018 at 01:57 PM.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    o rlly? Many of man's greatest achievements in the arts, sciences, and humanities were made by devoutly religious men and women. Think the sacred works of Bach, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. Gutenberg's efforts to mass produce the Bible led to the discovery of modern printing press technology in the West. Modern music notation used all over the world developed based on notation for Roman Catholic plainchant/Gregorian chant etc, etc.
    Even if I grant this to you, we still have religion, yours included, to thank for millions of dead bodies all over the world.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Even if I grant this to you, we still have religion, yours included, to thank for millions of dead bodies all over the world.
    That's nowhere near what the secular regimes of China, the Soviet Union, and others amassed in the last century alone. I think it's dumb to argue which group of people did the worst to others, but either your atheistic Moa or Stalin easily win that award



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  29. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    That's nowhere near what the secular regimes of China, the Soviet Union, and others amassed in the last century alone. I think it's dumb to argue which group of people did the worst to others, but either your atheistic Moa or Stalin easily win that award
    Ok level with me here.

    Are you familar with any of the activities of the former Portuguese Empire in Goa, Japan, Angola, and Brazil?
    Are you familiar with the Bengal famine under the British Empire through grain rationing?
    Are you familiar with Taiping Rebellion in Southern China brought about by western missionaries from Britain that killed more than 20 million people?

    At the very least the communists actually made an effort to appeal to their respective peoples on some level the Portuguese and British did not come as friends to any of the territories they possessed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
    Last edited by Lamp; 03-21-2018 at 01:25 PM.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    Ok level with me here.

    Are you familar with any of the activities of the former Portuguese Empire in Goa, Japan, Angola, and Brazil?
    Are you familiar with the Bengal famine under the British Empire through grain rationing?

    At the very least the communists actually made an effort to appeal to their respective peoples on some level the Portuguese and British did not. And moreover communism was the opposite and equal reaction these colonialists got in many places.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
    For one thing, I am not arguing East vs west or Christianity vs Hinduism. I am taking the side that religion has caused far, far less death than atheistic communism. The flu man on the other hand is condemning all religion.

    2nd those incidents that you posted we're not committed by religion s but rather by state. They may have used religion as an excuse, but the real cause was greed which is counter to most religious teaching. On the the other hand, Communism openly seeks seeks to destoy religion, enforce atheism, and turn worship to the state.

    3rd, communism's death toll still far exceeds the tragedies that you posted.

  31. #27
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    There never would have been any communism to come into fruition if the missionaries and colonial authorities in Africa and Indochina hadn't taught them how to torture people. To be fair communism only killed more people because there were more people to kill in China ,Russia and Vietnam at that point in history due to the advent of the industrial revolution and that common people gained their trust through propaganda more easily.
    Last edited by Lamp; 03-21-2018 at 01:41 PM.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  32. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    For one thing, I am not arguing East vs west or Christianity vs Hinduism. I am taking the side that religion has caused far, far less death than atheistic communism. The flu man on the other hand is condemning all religion.

    2nd those incidents that you posted we're not committed by religion s but rather by state. They may have used religion as an excuse, but the real cause was greed which is counter to most religious teaching. On the the other hand, Communism openly seeks seeks to destoy religion, enforce atheism, and turn worship to the state.

    3rd, communism's death toll still far exceeds the tragedies that you posted.
    I see your point. That's perfectly valid. It's just that when anyone mentions religion on this forum I assume we're talking about Christianity. I was never argueing from a Hindu perspective I fully mentioned China in there I think.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones


  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    There never would have been any communism to come into fruition if the missionaries and colonial authorities in Africa and Indochina hadn't taught them how to torture people. To be fair communism only killed more people because there were more people to kill in China ,Russia and Vietnam at that point in history due to the advent of the industrial revolution and that common people gained their trust through propaganda more easily.
    Regardless of numbers, Christianity or rather the spread of it, has destroyed entire native cultures (Islam has as well). All secular totalitarian ideologies have been able to do is to suppress them.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    That's nowhere near what the secular regimes of China, the Soviet Union, and others amassed in the last century alone. I think it's dumb to argue which group of people did the worst to others, but either your atheistic Moa or Stalin easily win that award
    You don't even know what the word secular means, lmao. Neither china nor the soviet union are/were secular. Secularism wants religious institutions to remain separate from the state, not that the state bans religions or dictates which are or aren't okay.

    All you are doing is setting up an idiotic strawman. I said that religions are responsible for millions of deaths. This is an indisputable fact. Nowhere did I suggest that communism is therefore better. I have only supported secularism, which has nothing in common with communist dictatorships. In fact, you are living in a secular country right now. Although Roy Moore, the christian taliban, and its idiotic supporters wish it wasn't.

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