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Thread: Ron Paul Against Tariffs

  1. #1

    Ron Paul Against Tariffs

    In the news this week Ron Paul came out against Tariffs.

    What I want to discuss is there place for tariffs in this new global economy.
    My thoughts are this, don't put tariffs on goods of any nations that have 1st world living conditions, so none on places like Canada or the UK or Germany places that pay there workers good benefits and fair wages. However that changes for me if the products are from nations that have poor wages and benefits for example Mexico, China and India. I am all for free markets, but is the playing field equal if a worker is forced to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for $1/hr building cheap whatever?

    I guess this is one area I disagree with both Trump and Ron, tariffs need only to create a level playing field, not punish a nation that pays there people good wages but maybe just does it better, in capitalism America will win some of those but it might lose some too, and that's ok.

    But if Trump can stop factories from leaving America and setting up in Mexico/China/India that is a good thing.

    Oh My does that make Ron Paul a globalist



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    In the news this week Ron Paul came out against Tariffs.

    What I want to discuss is there place for tariffs in this new global economy.
    My thoughts are this, don't put tariffs on goods of any nations that have 1st world living conditions, so none on places like Canada or the UK or Germany places that pay there workers good benefits and fair wages. However that changes for me if the products are from nations that have poor wages and benefits for example Mexico, China and India. I am all for free markets, but is the playing field equal if a worker is forced to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for $1/hr building cheap whatever?

    I guess this is one area I disagree with both Trump and Ron, tariffs need only to create a level playing field, not punish a nation that pays there people good wages but maybe just does it better, in capitalism America will win some of those but it might lose some too, and that's ok.

    But if Trump can stop factories from leaving America and setting up in Mexico/China/India that is a good thing.

    Oh My does that make Ron Paul a globalist
    Free trade isn't why the dollar isn't worth what it used to be, wanting to "level the playing field" after the dollar loses its value because we printed too much money is globalism. Wanting free trade so the dollar doesn't lose more value is not globalism.

  4. #3
    There is more than one way to tilt the playing field, plenty of first world countries tariff us and/or subsidize their industries.

    Ron is not a globalist he is just misguided about defensive tariffs.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There is more than one way to tilt the playing field, plenty of first world countries tariff us and/or subsidize their industries.

    Ron is not a globalist he is just misguided about defensive tariffs.
    Plenty of "first world countries" don't allow you to own a gun.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Plenty of "first world countries" don't allow you to own a gun.
    And I oppose their policy on that just as I do their tariffs and subsidies but since it only affects their citizens there is nothing I can do about it, their trade policies hurt Americans and we can defend ourselves with our trade policy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    In the news this week Ron Paul came out against Tariffs.

    What I want to discuss is there place for tariffs in this new global economy.
    My thoughts are this, don't put tariffs on goods of any nations that have 1st world living conditions, so none on places like Canada or the UK or Germany places that pay there workers good benefits and fair wages. However that changes for me if the products are from nations that have poor wages and benefits for example Mexico, China and India. I am all for free markets, but is the playing field equal if a worker is forced to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for $1/hr building cheap whatever?

    I guess this is one area I disagree with both Trump and Ron, tariffs need only to create a level playing field, not punish a nation that pays there people good wages but maybe just does it better, in capitalism America will win some of those but it might lose some too, and that's ok.

    But if Trump can stop factories from leaving America and setting up in Mexico/China/India that is a good thing.

    Oh My does that make Ron Paul a globalist
    It makes Ron Paul a libertarian. You don't just disagree with him on some marginal issue. You disagree with him on his whole philosophy.

    But yes, it also makes him a globalist, provided you define that correctly. His globalism is not the globalism of worldwide government, but the globalism of a worldwide unregulated market, without governments interfering with the global interactions that will naturally take place as individuals around the world seek their own interests. One of the features of this free market would even be a market-based non-fiat global currency.

    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-12-2018 at 08:19 AM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It makes Ron Paul a libertarian. You don't just disagree with him on some marginal issue. You disagree with him on his whole philosophy.
    LOL yeah but libertarian is a bad word. Libertarianism is even worse then globalism because libertarianism doesn't work because capitalism doesn't work because free trade doesn't work because the world isn't real, its a reality show, truth is treason in an empire of lies.

  9. #8
    Tariffs are tax
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    In the news this week Ron Paul came out against Tariffs.

    What I want to discuss is there place for tariffs in this new global economy.
    My thoughts are this, don't put tariffs on goods of any nations that have 1st world living conditions, so none on places like Canada or the UK or Germany places that pay there workers good benefits and fair wages. However that changes for me if the products are from nations that have poor wages and benefits for example Mexico, China and India. I am all for free markets, but is the playing field equal if a worker is forced to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for $1/hr building cheap whatever?

    I guess this is one area I disagree with both Trump and Ron, tariffs need only to create a level playing field, not punish a nation that pays there people good wages but maybe just does it better, in capitalism America will win some of those but it might lose some too, and that's ok.

    But if Trump can stop factories from leaving America and setting up in Mexico/China/India that is a good thing.

    Oh My does that make Ron Paul a globalist
    I agree with them on many issues but on this I am unsure what to believe about their intentions. Supporting globalist policies to the detriment of American citizens is sure starting to look like they are globalists and are betraying the American people on this issue.

    The organizations that have funded the Pauls including Rand's biggest donor to date actively campaign for free trade including actively campaigning against Trump's tariffs. Disappointing.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    In the news this week Ron Paul came out against Tariffs.

    What I want to discuss is there place for tariffs in this new global economy.
    My thoughts are this, don't put tariffs on goods of any nations that have 1st world living conditions, so none on places like Canada or the UK or Germany places that pay there workers good benefits and fair wages. However that changes for me if the products are from nations that have poor wages and benefits for example Mexico, China and India. I am all for free markets, but is the playing field equal if a worker is forced to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for $1/hr building cheap whatever?

    I guess this is one area I disagree with both Trump and Ron, tariffs need only to create a level playing field, not punish a nation that pays there people good wages but maybe just does it better, in capitalism America will win some of those but it might lose some too, and that's ok.

    But if Trump can stop factories from leaving America and setting up in Mexico/China/India that is a good thing.

    Oh My does that make Ron Paul a globalist
    Always beware of progressives wanting to use the government to "level" a "playing field".
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Ron is not a globalist he is just misguided about defensive tariffs.
    Ron is 100% right on this. I'm just sorry that you haven't come to understand why, yet.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It makes Ron Paul a libertarian. You don't just disagree with him on some marginal issue. You disagree with him on his whole philosophy.

    But yes, it also makes him a globalist, provided you define that correctly. His globalism is not the globalism of worldwide government, but the globalism of a worldwide unregulated market, without governments interfering with the global interactions that will naturally take place as individuals around the world seek their own interests. One of the features of this free market would even be a market-based non-fiat global currency.
    ^This! Trade globally; govern locally.

    You get in real bad shape when you allow progressives to dictate what terms mean. The term "globalist" as we refer to it means those pushing for global governance. We are against that. But the progressives want to change the term to include global trade - we are 100% for that~!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Ron is 100% right on this. I'm just sorry that you haven't come to understand why, yet.
    Exactly.

    Maybe start with a few of Ron's books on economy & freedom?

    End the Fed

    A Foreign Policy of Freedom

    Liberty Defined

    The Revolution: A Manifesto

    Gold, Peace, and Prosperity

    The Case for Gold
    There is no spoon.

  16. #14
    I hear what you guys are saying, but I really think sometimes government needs to protect it's citizenry from making self sufficiency errors.
    Let me explain, I will use garlic as an example, you can buy grown in America garlic or grown in China garlic. One is 1/4 the price. We need to grow our own food supplies here we need the info-structure and everything to support it, we should NOT be depending on China for food at any discount. There may come a time when we can't depend on that product getting here and we need to be able to look after our own. So government seeing the bigger picture slaps a 50% tariff on Chinese garlic and gives American garlic growers big tax breaks to help level the playing field for our own long term good.

    Sorry I might have a little different philosophical outlook than some here, America making itself self-sufficient and not depending on other nations has to be a good thing, especially if those nations are far away. But I am not talking about vegetables imported from Canada into North Dakota for cheaper, because there dollar is down this month.

    Is steel in this equation, that is for you to answer, but food staples sure are.
    Last edited by ProBlue33; 03-12-2018 at 06:30 PM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is not a globalist he is just misguided about defensive tariffs.
    Ron favors free trade because he is a liberal, contra a nationalist/economic ignoramus.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Ron favors free trade because he is a liberal, contra a nationalist/economic ignoramus.
    A CLASSIC LIBERAL- not the mentality that people today now associate with the word.
    There is no spoon.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    A CLASSIC LIBERAL- not the mentality that people today now associate with the word.
    The nationalists and socialists co-opted the term about a century and a half ago.

    For what it's worth, I've decided to continue using it in its original and now anachronistic sense.

    People who fundamentally hate human liberty should not be allowed to call themselves liberals.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    A CLASSIC LIBERAL- not the mentality that people today now associate with the word.
    Liberals favor the steel tariffs because it will support union (high paying) jobs.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Liberals favor the steel tariffs because it will support union (high paying) jobs.
    Yea, the "liberty" to make a good living through the robbery of your neighbors.

    ...but no, to properly use the English language, these people are called socialists, not liberals.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The nationalists and socialists co-opted the term about a century and a half ago.

    For what it's worth, I've decided to continue using it in its original and now anachronistic sense.

    People who fundamentally hate human liberty should not be allowed to call themselves liberals.
    Well, my grandfather is a classic liberal & he's a bit younger than 150 years.
    There is no spoon.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Well, my grandfather is a classic liberal & he's a bit younger than 150 years.
    Well, that makes 5 of us.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  25. #22

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I absolutely agree with what Ron said about the Fed and WTO in this video. I just wish he could have explained how we deal with China currency manipulation as it relates to trade, China blocking our imports, their high tariffs on American imports and their reselling US companies intellectual property. What about the decimation of our manufacturing base Ron due to imbalanced trade?

    If tariff's are not the solution, then what is? The status quo of Americans continue to take a beating is not a solution.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I absolutely agree with what Ron said about the Fed and WTO in this video. I just wish he could have explained how we deal with China currency manipulation as it relates to trade, China blocking our imports, their high tariffs on American imports and their reselling US companies intellectual property. What about the decimation of our manufacturing base Ron due to imbalanced trade?

    If tariff's are not the solution, then what is? The status quo of Americans continue to take a beating is not a solution.
    How do you beat China in a currency war? We just need better fiscal policy and the market would handle itself, we can't fight gresham's law. "Thiers' Law" is how we win a currency war.
    Last edited by nikcers; 03-12-2018 at 08:52 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    America making itself self-sufficient and not depending on other nations has to be a good thing, especially if those nations are far away.
    This is positively ludicrous.

    You must have this place confused with Democrat Underground.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I absolutely agree with what Ron said about the Fed and WTO in this video. I just wish he could have explained how we deal with China currency manipulation as it relates to trade, China blocking our imports, their high tariffs on American imports and their reselling US companies intellectual property. What about the decimation of our manufacturing base Ron due to imbalanced trade?

    If tariff's are not the solution, then what is? The status quo of Americans continue to take a beating is not a solution.
    Is China blocking our exports?



    As for the value of their currency, that is a bit trickier. Normally when we buy things from a country, they pay us in dollars and that is usually converted back into their currency so they can use it to buy something else- from us again or to pay workers or whatever. Converting our dollars to their currency should raise the value of their currency relatively to ours (they are demanding more of their currency while increasing the number of dollars available). And as the value of their currency starts to rise, the cost of their exports to us rises and the price of our exports goes down- over time if both economies are relatively the same the trade should start to balance out over the long term (other factors also impact a trade deficit).

    But they don't want that to happen- their competitive advantage would shrink. So they don't convert their dollars into yuan. Instead, they make dollar denominated investments- like buying US Treasury notes- our debt. That keeps the relative value from changing as much as it normally would.

    Our stronger currency makes imports cheaper (with any country) and our exports more expensive- encouraging a larger trade deficit.

    What can we do? We could try to dump dollars on the international market and try to drive down the value of the dollar- and cause price inflation here.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Is China blocking our exports?



    As for the value of their currency, that is a bit trickier. Normally when we buy things from a country, they pay us in dollars and that is usually converted back into their currency so they can use it to buy something else- from us again or to pay workers or whatever. Converting our dollars to their currency should raise the value of their currency relatively to ours (they are demanding more of their currency while increasing the number of dollars available). And as the value of their currency starts to rise, the cost of their exports to us rises and the price of our exports goes down- over time if both economies are relatively the same the trade should start to balance out over the long term (other factors also impact a trade deficit).

    But they don't want that to happen- their competitive advantage would shrink. So they don't convert their dollars into yuan. Instead, they make dollar denominated investments- like buying US Treasury notes- our debt. That keeps the relative value from changing as much as it normally would.

    Our stronger currency makes imports cheaper (with any country) and our exports more expensive- encouraging a larger trade deficit.

    What can we do? We could try to dump dollars on the international market and try to drive down the value of the dollar- and cause price inflation here.
    Do they or don't they have high tariffs and other trade barriers?

    Our exports to them should be much higher.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Do they or don't they have high tariffs and other trade barriers?

    Our exports to them should be much higher.
    Why? How high should they be? What should they be buying more of?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Why? How high should they be?
    As high as they would be without the excessive tariffs and other trade barriers.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What should they be buying more of?
    The things they put excessive tariffs on and that they block with their other trade barriers.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 03-12-2018 at 09:07 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    As high as they would be without ht excessive tariffs and other trade barriers.




    The things they put excessive tariffs on and that they block with their other trade barriers.
    What things are those?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

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