View Poll Results: The discussion in this thread changed my mind

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  • No, I was always right and I am right now.

    9 100.00%
  • Somewhat.

    0 0%
  • Definitely. I flipped 180.

    0 0%
  • Other.

    0 0%
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Thread: Trump Steel Tariffs Could Kill Up to 40,000 Auto Jobs, Nearly One-Third of Steel Workforce

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    There is no reduction. You are adding yet another layer of central planning - done directly by the executive - atop other layers. Nothing is being removed.
    Yes there is. You're just making up $#@!.

    If other countries reduce or end their tariffs, then tariffs are being removed.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Do you have better numbers? If not, why?


    I'll skip ahead and tell you why not: this is propaganda, a narrative designed to use fear and nationalist feeling to convince people that they need to be protected. Protected by government, and specifically by the ideology that is pushing the narrative.
    How about not being screwed instead of "protected"?



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  5. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Yes there is. You're just making up $#@!.

    If other countries reduce or end their tariffs, then tariffs are being removed.
    Which countries are removing what tariffs?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  6. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Which countries are removing what tariffs?
    Many of them will be removing a lot. But first Trump has to announce the tariffs, which he has, then he has to make some deals. It has to go in that order. But that is exactly what he campaigned on, and he is a very capable negotiator.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Many of them will be removing a lot. But first Trump has to announce the tariffs, which he has, then he has to make some deals. It has to go in that order. But that is exactly what he campaigned on, and he is a very capable negotiator.
    Is that why he has already closed so many other trade deals since taking office- he is an awesome negotiator?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/cana...otiations.html

    Canada's PM Trudeau: Our Trump tariff exemption has nothing to do with NAFTA talks

    Canada's exemption from President Donald Trump's tariffs have nothing to do with talks on the North American Free Trade Agreement, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told CNBC on Monday.

    "We don't link together the tariffs and the negotiations for NAFTA, but we're happy to continue to move forward on the negotiations," he said in an interview on "Power Lunch."
    "We know well that with this president there are moments of unpredictability
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-12-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  8. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Yes there is. You're just making up $#@!.

    If other countries reduce or end their tariffs, then tariffs are being removed.
    Your religious beliefs as to the outcome of this trade war - that higher tariffs create lower tariffs - are based upon trust in your messiah the god emperor. Those of us who do not share your faith have no such assurances.

    Your beliefs are also nonsensical because the justification of national security as the reason for protectionism will not be changed by the reduction of foreign tariffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  9. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Your religious beliefs as to the outcome of this trade war - that higher tariffs create lower tariffs - are based upon trust in your messiah the god emperor. Those of us who do not share your faith have no such assurances.
    Why don't you stay on the sideline like you always have, dear liberty champion?

  10. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Is that why he has already closed so many other trade deals since taking office- he is an awesome negotiator?
    He's been too busy playing golf. Is that what you want to hear?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  11. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Your religious beliefs as to the outcome of this trade war - that higher tariffs create lower tariffs - are based upon trust in your messiah the god emperor. Those of us who do not share your faith have no such assurances.

    Your beliefs are also nonsensical because the justification of national security as the reason for protectionism will not be changed by the reduction of foreign tariffs.
    That's fine, we are all on record.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    This is a key point of the liberty message. Iím sorry you donít get it. It is not governmentís role to ďlevel any playing fieldsĒ. It is not the role of our government to make sure other countries donít impoverish their subjects. Itís not governmentís role to ensure US businesses have a market in other countries to sell their goods.

    The role of government is to protect liberty. Not violate it. You progressives always want to give government more power as long as they promise to give you things. You should read more and type less. Maybe youíd learn something. Positive rights donít exist. By creating them by government edict, you always violate someoneís negative rights.
    Yes, yes it is.

    And there will be no liberty if Bolshevik mobs, out of work and in debt up to their eyeballs due to "open trade" practices, win the day.



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  14. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You think NYC is a free trade paragon like Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore?

    No, NYC relies on high finance, largely thanks to certain geopolitical considerations, and is otherwise extremely anti-business.

    It will be Detroit in 30 years if you people have your way.
    It already has been through it's Detroit stage.

    That said, Hong Kong was the very definition, the epitome of free trade, where the people of a remote island, with no resources, turned itself into an economic powerhouse.

    Until they found out that the feckless British, whom they had been a protectorate of for decades while they prospered, decided they wanted nothing more to do with them anymore.

    And the whole island and all it's people was handed over to Communist Chinese, and there wasn't a $#@!ing thing they could do about it.

    There are more important freedoms than the freedom to make a quick buck off fake Rolexes, suits and noodle houses.

  15. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    It already has been through it's Detroit stage.

    That said, Hong Kong was the very definition, the epitome of free trade, where the people of a remote island, with no resources, turned itself into an economic powerhouse.

    Until they found out that the feckless British, whom they had been a protectorate of for decades while they prospered, decided they wanted nothing more to do with them anymore.

    And the whole island and all it's people was handed over to Communist Chinese, and there wasn't a $#@!ing thing they could do about it.

    There are more important freedoms than the freedom to make a quick buck off fake Rolexes, suits and noodle houses.
    So, why does Hong Kong rank #1 in Human Freedom and the US is 23rd?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...s-in-the-world
    There is no spoon.

  16. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So, why does Hong Kong rank #1 in Human Freedom and the US is 23rd?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...s-in-the-world
    Good question.

    I've never seen any of the "best of" lists rank Hong Kong first.

    But that doesn't address my concern: that the people of Hong Kong, in spite of economic prosperity, have no say, no self determination, in their future.

    They were dependent on Britain, now they are dependent and ultimately subject to control, of mainland China.

  17. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So, why does Hong Kong rank #1 in Human Freedom and the US is 23rd?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...s-in-the-world
    Upon further reading, I see that list is based on a (St)Cato report.

    Curious metrics must have been used.

    Do you honestly think the UK is 6th in freedom, while we are 23rd?

  18. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post

    Until they found out that the feckless British, whom they had been a protectorate of for decades while they prospered, decided they wanted nothing more to do with them anymore.
    Pretty sure Britain would have liked to have held onto Hong Kong forever. They didn't have a choice in the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Good question.

    I've never seen any of the "best of" lists rank Hong Kong first.

    But that doesn't address my concern: that the people of Hong Kong, in spite of economic prosperity, have no say, no self determination, in their future.

    They were dependent on Britain, now they are dependent and ultimately subject to control, of mainland China.
    Maybe not having a say in their future is precisely THE reason for their success. Stossel has done specials on Hong Kong over the years. Most people who live there have no idea why they have flourished. People like Jackie Chan are Commies and want Hong Kong to go that route. It is probably a good thing someone forced capitalism on them. Not being able to vote was the luckiest break those people ever had.

  19. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, yes it is.

    And there will be no liberty if Bolshevik mobs, out of work and in debt up to their eyeballs due to "open trade" practices, win the day.

    On the other hand, trade wars, which Trump is most definitely engaging in, have a very disturbing tendency of culminating in real hot wars. If that happens to any significant degree, you can kiss any semblance of liberty goodbye.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  20. #287
    How anyone on this website could in good conscience support the US Fed Gov increasing taxes anywhere, anytime, on anyone, is simply unfathomable.
    The bigger government gets, the smaller I wish it was.

  21. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by georgiaboy View Post
    How anyone on this website could in good conscience support the US Fed Gov increasing taxes anywhere, anytime, on anyone, is simply unfathomable.
    If you are even able to get them to admit it is a tax their argument is that it's the best option as different types of taxation go. Interestingly I haven't seen the income tax, property tax, sales tax, or any other tax removed prior to said tariffs being imposed so I'm not quite sure what their point is.



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  23. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    The role of government is to protect liberty. Not violate it.
    This is 180 degrees backwards.

  24. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    This is 180 degrees backwards.
    lol - should I have included the adjective "ostensible" or "proper" to describe "role"? I think you know what I was getting at.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  25. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by georgiaboy View Post
    How anyone on this website could in good conscience support the US Fed Gov increasing taxes anywhere, anytime, on anyone, is simply unfathomable.
    Some of us are not looking for brownie points by shouting out slogans to prove how anti-tax and libertarian we are. Some of live in the real world and realize the real world is not a libertarian utopia that has our best interests at heart. One can also say how can anyone on this site support Communist China and their economy over our own.

    If a foreign government's policy is to deny Americans access to their markets, increases tariffs on our imports and has the intent to undermine our economy then it is well within reason for our government to retaliate through tariffs. The government's purpose is to ensure strategic free trade that is designed to be advantageous to America first and foremost. Trade policy should be used to advance Americaís national and economic security priorities NOT work against it as advocated by some here. This can be done by making access to U.S. markets contingent on foreigners playing by the rules in ALL sectors. If they donít cooperate, they should pay a tariff in the best interests of Americans first.

  26. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    But that doesn't address my concern: that the people of Hong Kong, in spite of economic prosperity, have no say, no self determination, in their future.
    Um, neither do we.

  27. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So, why does Hong Kong rank #1 in Human Freedom and the US is 23rd?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...s-in-the-world
    That said, why is Switzerland, that has extremely stiff tariffs and immigration control, ranked number 2?

  28. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    One can also say how can anyone on this site support Communist China and their economy over our own.
    What you don't seem to get is that China denying access to American goods is not good for their economy. Nor is subsidizing their industry so that their goods are cheaper for Americans. These actions are extremely detrimental to overall wealth creation and accumulation within their country. Sure, it might benefit the Communist regime temporarily but it does nothing to raise the standard of living of their people.

    And you would have us follow suit.

  29. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    What you don't seem to get is that China denying access to American goods is not good for their economy. Nor is subsidizing their industry so that their goods are cheaper for Americans. These actions are extremely detrimental to overall wealth creation and accumulation within their country. Sure, it might benefit the Communist regime temporarily but it does nothing to raise the standard of living of their people.

    And you would have us follow suit.
    Not countering the protectionism of other countries has resulted in the loss of 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost since Bush I.

    Temporarily? Are you really now going to deny how far the Chinese have come to be the economic powerhouse through export policies built on protectionism during that period?

  30. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by georgiaboy View Post
    How anyone on this website could in good conscience support the US Fed Gov increasing taxes anywhere, anytime, on anyone, is simply unfathomable.
    The total taxes paid will go way down, that's why. You aren't considering what is going to happen in the other direction when we have to pay far less taxes to sell our stuff in other countries.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  32. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That said, why is Switzerland, that has extremely stiff tariffs and immigration control, ranked number 2?
    Source on their having high tariffs?

    That's not what I found here.
    https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...st-tariffs.asp

  33. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Not countering the protectionism of other countries has resulted in the loss of 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost since Bush I.
    This is a flat out lie.

    What you mean to say is: There have been a loss of 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 (actually it's 5.5 million) manufacturing jobs since Bush I.

    Can you spot the difference?

    You cannot leap to the conclusion that a lack of US protectionism is the singular cause of 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs disappearing. The US economy has added over 40 million jobs in that same time period. Prior to Bush, the pace of manufacturing job loss was only slightly less than it was after him.

    It's more likely that trade policy accounts for maybe 10% of this job loss. The biggest factor by leaps and bounds is automation and technology, followed by market inefficiencies. Again I ask, shall we ban technology to save your precious jobs? Let's just stop progressing all together? Or even better, why not dictate by law that we can only use the technology that was available at the peak of our manufacturing employment in the 1970s. Production and output would be far lower, but hey, more people might be employed in back-breaking, disease ridden, manual labor tasks.
    Last edited by fcreature; 03-13-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  34. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Source on their having high tariffs?

    That's not what I found here.
    https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...st-tariffs.asp
    The Swiss do not make much of their own, I recall reading a study showing high import duties on items that they do make.

    But I cannot recall it off the top of my head, so I stand corrected.

  35. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    back-breaking, disease ridden, manual labor tasks.


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