View Poll Results: The discussion in this thread changed my mind

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  • No, I was always right and I am right now.

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  • Somewhat.

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Thread: Trump Steel Tariffs Could Kill Up to 40,000 Auto Jobs, Nearly One-Third of Steel Workforce

  1. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Most of the jobs lost or displaced by trade with China between 2001 and 2013 were in manufacturing industries (2.4 million jobs, or 75.7 percent).
    So? They're only talking about jobs lost from trade policy.
    Got it loud and clear, "$#@! Americans, all hail China and globalist elite".

    Like I said early in the thread I believe your choice of doing the bidding for the Chinese Communist party at the expense of US factory closings and putting thousands of Americans out of work is not only immoral it is repugnant and treasonous.



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  3. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I hope you enjoy being a collaborator while you can because sooner or later you will be judged for it.
    Cheaper prices are nothing compared to the loss of wages or even worse the loss of our independence and freedom, China and the globalists are well on their way to reducing Americans to debt slaves dependent on others for their needs with no ability to resist the dictates of those who supply their necessities.
    You know what? I am enjoying it. Enjoying it so much that I broke out the 10 lb beef tenderloin to throw a 12 hour smoke on it.

    Going to drink a beer in my airconditioned house, listen to old school country through my wireless speakers, and dick around on this mobile tablet.

    You can take your communist attempts at guilt tripping me somewhere else. I can't hear them over my high standard of living (which let me reiterate one more time, is due to capitalism and trade).

    Cheers.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  4. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What planet do you two live on? Mars or Pluto?
    I have asked fcreature twice already in this thread if he lives outside the US or region within the US or his age. If you have been around long enough in many cities in the US and seen the data year after year, there is really no denying the historical record. We see the establishment trying to rewrite history all the time to fit the narrative but this is pretty extreme.

    I know it is coming some day to RPF the younger generation that has not lived through the Iraq war denying that we spent a trillion dollars in Iraq. I think we will hear debates here saying it was only 10% of that, that Iraq boosted the economy and we had a surplus. If not the younger generation then political operatives for the think tanks or foreign influence.

    Just give it time or until the DNC or GOP establishment starts screaming for another war and we will see the historical rewrite by some here.

  5. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    CFR and CATO are also two organizations whose top goals are promotion of so called free trade.
    Also the Mises Institute.

    Here's an article they just posted today for you to add to your regular business news reading on why manufacturing jobs are overrated.
    https://mises.org/wire/manufacturing-jobs-are-overrated
    One of the reasons that Donald Trump gives for slapping new protectionist tariffs on steel and aluminum is that it will create manufacturing jobs, and by extension, greatly enhance income growth and standards of living in the United States.

    Trump is capitalizing on an enduring myth of American economic history in which it is believed that declines in manufacturing jobs are accompanied by drops in standards of living as well.

    What is often forgotten, however, is that manufacturing jobs, in proportion to the population overall, dropped significantly from the end of World War II through the 1950s and 1960s. And yet, during this time, real median incomes in the United States increased.


    Incomes stagnated somewhat during the 1970s, but then grew substantially again during the 1980s and 1990s. And, of course, during the 1980s and 1990s, manufacturing jobs continued a fast downward slide.

    In other words, it is not at all clear that falling manufacturing jobs lead to falling incomes or falling standards of living.

    Now, pointing out some correlations — or lack thereof — in the data doesn't prove that manufacturing jobs have no connection at all to incomes and wealth. To understand that, we need good economic theory. And, on this point sound economics is clear. Higher taxes — i.e., tariffs — are not the way to economic growth. But, when this is pointed out, proponents of higher tariffs say "but history proves that tariffs are great for America!" Well, history "proves" no such thing.

  6. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I have asked fcreature twice already in this thread if he lives outside the US or region within the US or his age.
    I'm turning 29 in 82 days. I currently live in and always have lived in upstate NY. My father was a roofer who was forced out of business due to restrictive government policies and prohibitive insurance costs. My mother was a waitress for most of her life, finally worked her way into a decent job at a water-jet manufacturing company, and was laid off 8 years later with no notice. I likely grew up in much poorer conditions than you. I distinctly remember days where my next meal was a concern. My family never leeched off the welfare system when by all accounts, easily could have. By the time I was 16 I had started an extremely profitable company and took over all household finances for my unemployed parents and still help them with their finances to this day. I went to 2 years of community college and never used the degree. Today I border on what would be considered upper-class income and lifestyle. I've likely paid as much income taxes already as most do by time they retire.

    Is that enough information for you?

    I'm not sure what any of my personal details have to do with any of the statistics, facts or math I've posted. Instead of responding to any of the data you choose instead to focus on my personal life as if that somehow has any importance to the discussion at hand. Ironically I've actually lived through the experiences you've been talking about.
    Last edited by fcreature; 03-13-2018 at 04:22 PM.

  7. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    You know what? I am enjoying it. Enjoying it so much that I broke out the 10 lb beef tenderloin to throw a 12 hour smoke on it.

    Going to drink a beer in my airconditioned house, listen to old school country through my wireless speakers, and dick around on this mobile tablet.

    You can take your communist attempts at guilt tripping me somewhere else. I can't hear them over my high standard of living (which let me reiterate one more time, is due to capitalism and trade).

    Cheers.
    I wonder why it is that the economic illiterate can’t figure out what creates a high standard of living??
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  9. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I'm not sure what any of my personal details have to do with any of the statistics, facts or math I've posted. Instead of responding to any of the data you choose instead to focus on my personal life as if that somehow has any importance to the discussion at hand. Ironically I've actually lived through the experiences you've been talking about.
    The fact that you continue to ignore the historical record as if it did not happen and you minimize it 10%. Of course there are other factors yet you continue to downplay the impact and promote foreign interests over American interests.

    The think tanks on both sides have a tendency rewrite history to fit whatever narrative is being pushed that favours their globalist masters. In this case trade policy that favours their foreign interests at the expense of Americans. Someone who is young, did not live through or see it with their own two eyes may have a tendency to believe the propaganda. On the other hand I thought maybe you are not in the states or are invested in a foreign entity that may benefit from policies that favour those interests.

  10. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The fact that you continue to ignore the historical record as if it did not happen and you minimize it 10%. Of course there are other factors yet you continue to downplay the impact and promote foreign interests over American interests.

    The think tanks on both sides have a tendency rewrite history to fit whatever narrative is being pushed that favours their globalist masters. In this case trade policy that favours their foreign interests at the expense of Americans. Someone who is young, did not live through or see it with their own two eyes may have a tendency to believe the propaganda. On the other hand I thought maybe you are not in the states or are invested in a foreign entity that may benefit from policies that favour those interests.
    You cannot even acknowledge something so basic as automation and technology contributing towards loss of employment in manufacturing.

    Without even knowing me, you attack my personal life experience as a defense of your opinion.

    Rather than offer any empirically verifiable evidence that loss of manufacturing jobs is primarily due to trade policy, you offer vague personal experiences and appeal to emotion.

    You reject any data or statistics that doesn't confirm your conclusion, without explanation as to why or how that data is wrong.

    And when you have no retort to a stated fact, you ignore it and play the moral high-ground with the Chinese Communist.

    There is no point in having a discussion with you.

  11. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Of course there are other factors yet you continue to downplay the impact and promote foreign interests over American interests.
    I don't see anybody here doing that.

    But how would that be any worse than promoting American interests over foreign ones? Are we supposed to think that helping an American family put food on their table is a loftier goal than helping a Chinese family put food on theirs?

    Don't get me wrong, I think that tariffs aren't even a means of accomplishing the pursuit of American interests anyway, even if it were ethically defensible. But it's odd how some here just take for granted that everyone who lives in the tax jurisdiction of the regime in Washington DC is supposed to think that benefiting other people inside that tax jurisdiction has to be a higher priority than benefiting people outside it, to the point of suggesting that those who don't agree are somehow treasonous.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-13-2018 at 07:09 PM.

  12. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    You cannot even acknowledge something so basic as automation and technology contributing towards loss of employment in manufacturing.
    I never denied that. If you have any concern like I do about things going to hell here in the US due to automation you would not continue to promote trade policies that further exacerbate driving businesses and jobs offshore.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Without even knowing me, you attack my personal life experience as a defense of your opinion.
    I never attacked your personal life. I asked about whether you reside in the US and your age to try to figure out how you can be so damn blind to deny the historical record or whether you benefit from policies that enrich China over America.

    If you consider me calling you out for supporting the Communist Chinese over your American countrymen an attack, then so be it. The shoe fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Rather than offer any empirically verifiable evidence that loss of manufacturing jobs is primarily due to trade policy, you offer vague personal experiences and appeal to emotion.
    In this thread I have posts that provided charts, links to data and a lifetime of first hand experience. Those experiences you call "vague" included thousands of people I watched first hand lose their long careers due to trade policies sending manufacturing offshore. It effected me directly several times since I was one them along with many friends and half my family. So do not give me some brainwashed bull$#@! that it is some "vague" experience.

    Phil4Paul is another here that told you he lived it first hand and described a similar manner industries in his region wiped out by it, but I guess he is full of $#@! to since his story does not fit your fairytale narrative on trade.

    You would have to be blind not to recognize the daily output of news articles since the mid 70s of companies moving overseas. It is one of the reasons why Ross Perot did so well in the 1992 election and how Pat Buchanan posed a threat to the establishment in 1996 and 2000. The trade debate dominated politics in the mid 70s and throughout the 80s.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I reject any data or statistics that doesn't confirm my conclusion, without explanation as to why or how that data is wrong.
    Fixed that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    And when you have no retort to a stated fact, you ignore it and play the moral high-ground with the Chinese Communist.

    There is no point in having a discussion with you.
    Considering you do not see any moral or allegiance issue with enriching the Communist Chinese at the expense of our American countrymen then I agree there is no point of continuing a discussion with a traitor like you.

  13. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    If you have any concern like I do about things going to hell here in the US due to automation...
    So you think things are going to hell in the US due to automation?!

  14. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Considering you do not see any moral or allegiance issue with enriching the Communist Chinese at the expense of our American countrymen then I agree there is no point of continuing a discussion with a traitor like you.
    Wait a minute... I can't keep up with you protectionists. So now we are enriching the Chinese? I thought they were subsidizing their production to sell their products at a lower cost - which means they'd be losing every time they made the trade. And if I'm buying steel at a reduce cost, wouldn't I be enriching myself? Because now I have the steel plus some extra money to use elsewhere... I mean, there's an obvious reason why American consumers buy those goods, right? Because it gives us each more money for other things. A steel worker may have lost his job, but now I get to hire a contractor to build my deck.

    Why do you hate contractors? Who is going to stand up for his job?! I guess he's just not as politically connected to benefit from your brand of cronyism.

    So let's review: You want contractors to lose their jobs. And you want to stop taking advantage of the Chinese because you're putting their interests above ours. Tsk, tsk. And you're calling other people traitors...
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So you think things are going to hell in the US due to automation?!
    In a different world it wouldn't be the case, in this world however automation is pouring gasoline on the economic dumpster fire that government and the globalists caused.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Wait a minute... I can't keep up with you protectionists. So now we are enriching the Chinese? I thought they were subsidizing their production to sell their products at a lower cost - which means they'd be losing every time they made the trade. And if I'm buying steel at a reduce cost, wouldn't I be enriching myself? Because now I have the steel plus some extra money to use elsewhere... I mean, there's an obvious reason why American consumers buy those goods, right? Because it gives us each more money for other things. A steel worker may have lost his job, but now I get to hire a contractor to build my deck.

    Why do you hate contractors? Who is going to stand up for his job?! I guess he's just not as politically connected to benefit from your brand of cronyism.

    So let's review: You want contractors to lose their jobs. And you want to stop taking advantage of the Chinese because you're putting their interests above ours. Tsk, tsk. And you're calling other people traitors...
    The peasants lose, the ChiCom Government is enriched, their trade war is a misallocation of resources that causes less wealth to be created but it diverts a larger amount to their regime.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 03-13-2018 at 07:33 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  18. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So you think things are going to hell in the US due to automation?!
    Yeah, of course they are. Things were so much more productive when we would spend hours each day washing our clothes by hand. And if we could just go back to churning butter by hand, maybe I'd feel more "productive" at breakfast.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  19. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So you think things are going to hell in the US due to automation?!
    Have you not been paying attention to the calls for a UBI due to the coming advances in automation? This goes to my point not to exacerbate a growing problem with off-shoring. If you do not wish to expand the welfare state then one would have a concern about mass US unemployment and lack of job opportunities due to off-shoring.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=automation+ubi&t=ffsb&ia=web

  20. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Wait a minute... I can't keep up with you protectionists. So now we are enriching the Chinese? I thought they were subsidizing their production to sell their products at a lower cost - which means they'd be losing every time they made the trade.
    Once they put their foreign competitors out of business with that tactic and bruise the vertical industries that sell into them, then that tactic is no longer necessary. The added benefit for them is if they beat them down enough to or near bankruptcy they can buy the American entity, shut it down and off-shore it.
    Last edited by kahless; 03-13-2018 at 08:40 PM.

  21. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Once they put their foreign competitors out of business with that tactic and bruised the vertical industries that sell into them. then that tactic is no longer necessary. The added benefit is if they beaten then down enough to or near bankruptcy they can buy the American entity, eventually off-shore it and shut it down.
    Gibberish. Been drinking tonight? Wanna respond to the rest of that post? Why do you hate contractors?
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  22. #349
    How is China's government taxing it's citizens in order to subsidize their government's favored industries in order that they can "dump" the products of that industry on US consumers advantageous to Chinese citizens and disadvantageous to US citizens? The Chinese are getting screwed by their government; we get richer as a result of this policy.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  23. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Once they put their foreign competitors out of business with that tactic and bruised the vertical industries that sell into them. then that tactic is no longer necessary. The added benefit is if they beaten them down enough to or near bankruptcy they can buy the American entity, eventually off-shore it and shut it down.
    https://fee.org/articles/herbert-dow...atory-pricing/
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  24. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    How is China's government taxing it's citizens in order to subsidize their government's favored industries in order that they can "dump" the products of that industry on US consumers advantageous to Chinese citizens and disadvantageous to US citizens? The Chinese are getting screwed by their government; we get richer as a result of this policy.
    blah blah blah. your sound logic clearly outs you as a treacherous chinese communist sympathizer

  25. #352
    Foundation for Economic Education?! Revisionist history and fake news!!!



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  27. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Gibberish. Been drinking tonight? Wanna respond to the rest of that post?
    Yeah wow, lol distracted typing. "Once they put their foreign competitors out of business with that tactic and bruise the vertical industries that sell into them, then that tactic is no longer necessary. The added benefit for them is if they beat them down enough to or near bankruptcy they can buy the American entity, shut it down and off-shore it. "

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Why do you hate contractors?
    One is not going to be able to afford a contractor if their job is shipped off to China.

  28. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    "$#@! Americans, all hail China and globalist elite".
    I never thought you would just out right say it. I finally know what MAGA means.

  29. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I never thought you would just out right say it. I finally know what MAGA means.
    That was obviously sarcasm. I believe that is the belief system of some posting here.

  30. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I believe that is the belief system
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking.

  31. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking.
    RIP
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  32. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    One is not going to be able to afford a contractor if their job is shipped off to China.
    Pretty hard to off-shore a construction contractor job. Again, I'm not sure what you have against American jobs. If we can get some materials cheaper, then we all have more wealth. Yeah, it may hurt an industry that is in competition with those external resources, but in the aggregate we are ALL more wealthy. We'll have those materials AND extra wealth. Which means more American jobs, like a contractor, that are difficult to outsource. But go ahead and play the cronyism game... Save the factory workers at the expense of all the contractors out there and at the expense of every American consumer. I'm still not sure why you care more about saving the Chinese money than you do about American workers. This is pretty shameful, if you ask me.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  33. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Have you not been paying attention to the calls for a UBI due to the coming advances in automation?
    Yeah. It's stupid. And it's a shame that you buy that nonsense.

  34. #360
    Still waiting for one of you protectionists out there to tell me how tariffs are going to stop automation from displacing manufacturing jobs?

    Robotics systems are thus becoming an economically viable alternative to human labor in more and more industries. A human welder today earns around $25 per hour (including benefits), while the equivalent operating cost per hour for a robot is around $8 when installation, maintenance, and the operating costs of all hardware, software, and peripherals are amortized over a five-year depreciation period. In 15 years, that gap will widen even more dramatically. The operating cost per hour for a robot doing similar welding tasks could plunge to as little as $2 when improvements in its performance are factored in.


    https://www.bcg.com/publications/201...itiveness.aspx

    Also still waiting on one of you to prove your assertion that the US no longer manufactures much of anything.



    https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

    And is someone going to debunk this study?

    https://conexus.cberdata.org/files/MfgReality.pdf

    Still, national manufacturing production, in inflation-adjusted dollars, remains on a steady and long-term growth path. By 2014, the manufacturing economy had completely recovered with record levels of production.
    The persistent growth of manufacturing production, when adjusted for inflation, has been an important and consistent contributor to output in the United States. The notion that manufacturing in the United States is in decline is factually incorrect.
    Over the entire period 2006-2013, manufacturing grew by 17.6 percent, or at roughly 2.2 percent per year
    We believe a contribution to the myth of manufacturing decline is the state of labor usage in manufacturing.
    A closer examination of productivity yields some interesting insights as well. In 1998, the inflation-adjusted output per worker was much lower than it is today. This is due to a variety of factors, chief among them being the automation and information technology advances absorbed by these sectors over this time period.
    Had we kept 2000-levels of productivity and applied them to 2010-levels of production, we would have required 20.9 million manufacturing workers. Instead, we employed only 12.1 million.



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