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Thread: President Trump is right about taxing at our water’s edge.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    One big difference between then and now is that our country had a trade surplus when Smoot-Hawley was implemented on June 17, 1930 so imho adding tariffs made no sense; since Bush 1, we've lost $12 trillion in trade deficits and our manufacturing industries have been completely gutted followed by the gutting of wealth of the middle and working classes.

    As mentioned in my post above: Having American labor compete with Chinese slave labor is a race to the bottom for the U.S. middle class and working class (what's left of it). ... One idea beyond Pat Buchanan would be to just have dynamic tariffs so that the overall trade we have with another country has a trade deficit of $0; once there's a trade surplus, the tariffs come off. That way we can continue trade with that country without losing manufacturing jobs.

    Not sure I agree with choosing products (although i can understand Trump's interest in steel for defense purposes); overall bilateral trade should have a trade deficit of $0. Let the market decide which country in a trade relationship makes which widgets better and more efficiently.



    The one worry as I see it is the current extent of the damage to our manufacturing base. Not only have we lost since Bush 1 the skills of our manufacturing workforce, but as i see it, even more importantly, when most of our manufacturing was offshored to China, they didn't just close down the factories. They literally exported most of the huge machinery inside those factories to China as well. So we're literally starting from scratch. We have to build the machines the factories use in creating their products. This takes investment and a great deal of time. Certainly the positive affects of a resurging middle & working class for the country will not be fully attained in the next 3 years of Trump's reign, and may only begin to see signs of positive change by 2024 if he wins in 2020. As Buchanan wrote, it will take some pain to get there. Certainly the greatest pain would be felt by retired workers who would be living on pensions of a less prosperous time. But if allowed, certainly in time the middle and working classes will once again begin to grow and prosper. As Buchanan writes, the alternative is losing our independence; i would also add if trade deficits continue as they have, we will also continue to lose our prosperity in the race to the bottom as our workers continue to compete with slave labor in China and other 3rd world countries.
    Milton Friedman was a Keynesian.

    From Milton Rothbard:

    Milton Friedman has revealed his quintessential pro-income tax and egalitarian position in numerous ways. As in many other spheres, he has functioned not as an opponent of statism and advocate of the free market, but as a technician advising the State on how to be more efficient in going about its evil work. (From the viewpoint of a genuine libertarian, the more inefficient the State’s operations, the better![5]) He has opposed tax exemptions and “loopholes” and worked to make the income tax more uniform.

    One of Friedman’s most disastrous deeds was the important role he proudly played, during World War II in the Treasury Department, in foisting upon the suffering American public the system of the withholding tax. Before World War II, when income tax rates were far lower than now, there was no withholding system; everyone paid his annual bill in one lump sum, on March 15. It is obvious that under this system, the Internal Revenue Service could never hope to extract the entire annual sum, at current confiscatory rates, from the mass of the working population. The whole ghastly system would have happily broken down long before this. Only the Friedmanite withholding tax has permitted the government to use every employer as an unpaid tax collector, extracting the tax quietly and silently from each paycheck. In many ways, we have Milton Friedman to thank for the present monster Leviathan State in America.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/02/...lton-friedman/

    The tariffs may bring a few more jobs in for actual steel production, but they will most likely cause lay-offs in jobs that produce products of steel.

    And because the costs will be much higher in product production this will cause prices to skyrocket for the average American.
    There is no spoon.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    What exactly do you mean "confirmed" the Great Depression?


    JWK




    Without a Fifth Column Media, Yellow Journalism, Hollywood, and a corrupted FBI, Loretta Lynch, Hillary Clinton and Barack Hussein Obama, would be making license tags in a federal penitentiary

    Disintegration of the World Economy

    The Hoover administration opposed any readjustment. Under the influence of “the new economics” of government planning, the president urged businessmen not to cut prices and reduce wages, but rather to increase capital outlay, wages, and other spending in order to maintain purchasing power. He embarked upon deficit spending and called upon municipalities to increase their borrowing for more public works. Through the Farm Board, which Hoover had organized in the autumn of 1929, the federal government tried strenuously to uphold the prices of wheat, cotton, and other farm products. The GOP tradition was further invoked to curtail foreign imports.

    The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of June 1930, raised American tariffs to unprecedented levels, which practically closed our borders to foreign goods. According to most economic historians, this was the crowning folly of the whole period from 1920 to 1933 and the beginning of the real depression. “Once we raised our tariffs,” wrote Benjamin Anderson, an irresistible movement all over the world to raise tariffs and to erect other trade barriers, including quotas, began. Protectionism ran wild over the world. Markets were cut off. Trade lines were narrowed. Unemployment in the export industries all over the world grew with great rapidity. Farm prices in the United States dropped sharply through the whole of 1930, but the most rapid rate of decline came following the passage of the tariff bill.

    When President Hoover announced he would sign the bill into law, industrial stocks broke 20 points in one day. The stock market correctly anticipated the depression.

    The protectionists have never learned that curtailment of imports inevitably hampers exports. Even if foreign countries do not immediately retaliate for trade restrictions injuring them, their foreign purchases are circumscribed by their ability to sell abroad. This is why the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act which closed our borders to foreign products also closed foreign markets to our products. American exports fell from $5.5 billion in 1929 to $1.7 billion in 1932. American agriculture customarily had exported over 20 percent of its wheat, 55 percent of its cotton, 40 percent of its tobacco and lard, and many other products. When international trade and commerce were disrupted, American farming collapsed. In fact, the rapidly growing trade restrictions, including tariffs, quotas, foreign-exchange controls, and other devices were generating a worldwide depression.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2009/06/...at-depression/
    There is no spoon.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, it is.

    So, until such time as we can either:

    A - Have a revolution and violently depose the taxmen and their cronies and Quislings or:

    B - Convince enough fellow citizens of this fact, then:

    The fact is there will be tax of some kind, theft of some kind, enforced at the barrel of government gun.

    So, the question then is: "How bad a form of robbery do I want to be subjected to"?

    Tariffs are stealing my cigarette lighter.

    Income taxes are a mugging at gunpoint and a beating.

    Property taxes are a home invasion, where I am anally gang raped and sodomized, before being slowly tortured to death.

    I'll take tariffs, thank you.

    I can respect your position.

    However, I have to disagree with what the question actually is. It definitely is not "How bad a form of robbery do I want to be subjected to?", since we definitely are not being given a choice between tariffs, income tax or property tax. Your question, therefore presents a false dilemma.

    In actuality we're being subjected to income tax, property tax, and then having tariffs added on top. So it's more like this:

    "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to rob you at gunpoint and beat the $#@! out of you. Then we're going to follow you to your place where we'll invade your home, anally rape and sodomize you and slowly torture you to death. Oh, and by the way, we're stealing your cigarette lighter too."

    Kind of adding insult to injury. I've been insulted, abused, and stolen from enough.
    Last edited by CCTelander; 03-07-2018 at 05:17 PM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post

    The tariffs may bring a few more jobs in for actual steel production, but they will most likely cause lay-offs in jobs that produce products of steel.

    And because the costs will be much higher in product production this will cause prices to skyrocket for the average American.

    Overall our country lost $12 trillion in wealth since Bush 1. So-called free trade caused way more lay-offs of good living wage manufacturing jobs than any tariffs ever could; indeed it's gutted entire cities and towns. Those that would be laid off at the beginning because of higher steel prices from foreign imports could become the new employees of a new steel industry in this country.

    Your second point is noted, that's why I believe the attempt should be a dynamic tariff to obtain a $0 trade deficit in overall trade with another country which then would create many new manufacturing industries here, not just one industry. Done bilaterally with all countries, we then once again build a working and middle class who then can afford more expensive cars or widgets because the country itself is being lifted up. As I see it, only those not participating in the economy, ie. retirees living on savings and 401K's would be harmed by this because they are living on savings from a less prosperous time. But the country itself as a whole would be able to regain prosperity that has for so many years (since Bush 1) been lost to China and other 3rd world countries.

    As Buchanan noted, there will be initial pain. There would need to be buy in from the country as a whole. It will take time to re-build the prosperity lost by most of America's middle and working classes since Bush 1. It's a huge endeavor. But if we stay the course, one day we could again have a working and middle class making living wages instead of living off debt. I think it's worth it. Many do not. And many won't have the patience to go thru the initial years of difficulty. And in that case, we just continue as we have with our country losing it's prosperity to other countries with each coming year.
    Last edited by charrob; 03-07-2018 at 07:21 PM.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Overall our country lost $12 trillion in wealth since Bush 1. So-called free trade caused way more lay-offs of good living wage manufacturing jobs than any tariffs ever could; indeed it's gutted entire cities and towns. Those that would be laid off at the beginning because of higher steel prices from foreign imports could become the new employees of a new steel industry in this country.

    Your second point is noted, that's why I believe the attempt should be a dynamic tariff to obtain a $0 trade deficit in overall trade with another country which then would create many new manufacturing industries here, not just one industry. Done bilaterally with all countries, we then once again build a working and middle class who then can afford more expensive cars or widgets because the country itself is being lifted up. As I see it, only those not participating in the economy, ie. retirees living on savings and 401K's would be harmed by this because they are living on savings from a less prosperous time. But the country itself as a whole would be able to regain prosperity that has for so many years (since Bush 1) been lost to China and other 3rd world countries.

    The problem, IMHPOV, is not free trade, which has not been happening since Bush 1, but the FED, fiat money, no gold standard & crony-capitalism.

    A quote from @AZJoe on the RP Forum:

    Harry Browne on tariffs:

    The government prohibits some imports and taxes others. … the real reason is to reward the industries with the most political influence.

    The principal barriers to imports are tariffs that make foreign goods more expensive for you to buy. The tariffs also make American products more expensive by increasing the cost of imported raw materials. And the tariffs make some foreign products so expensive they can’t compete here-leaving you no alternative to more costly American versions.
    In addition … foreign products can be banned entirely …

    Import barriers cost Americans about $70 billion a year-roughly about $700 for every American household. …
    The US should immediately spread the existing tariff revenue evenly over all imported products, reducing tariffs to roughly 2%. Tariffs should never be used as a political tool to reward influential industries and companies.

    http://www.issues2000.org/Frontline/...mmigration.htm


    No import tariffs, regardless of human rights. (May 1996)
    Tariffs cost Americans $70B a year. (Sep 2000)
    Replace WTO & NAFTA with uniformly low tariffs. (Jan 2000)
    No import tariffs, regardless of human rights. (May 1996)

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Harry_Browne.htm
    There is no spoon.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The problem, IMHPOV, is not free trade, which has not been happening since Bush 1, but the FED, fiat money, no gold standard & crony-capitalism.
    I agree with you that the FED, fiat money, no gold standard and crony-capitalism has increased the problems substantially; but we differ in our view of trade deficits which I believe has been a major blow to the middle and working classes.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Milton Friedman was a Keynesian.

    From Milton Rothbard:


    Rothbard said a lot of things. Rothbard thought deflation was a wonderful thing in the depression because it would some how speed up the cleansing depression. Here is an alternative from Keynesian economist FA Hayek.

    Quote Originally Posted by FA HAYEK
    “I agree with Milton Friedman that once the Crash [of 1929] had occurred, the Federal Reserve System pursued a silly deflationary policy. I am not only against inflation but I am also against deflation. So, once again, a badly programmed monetary policy prolonged the depression.”
    Quote Originally Posted by HAYEK
    “The moment there is any sign that the total income stream may actually shrink [during a post-bust deflationary crash], I should certainly not only try everything in my power to prevent it from dwindling, but I should announce beforehand that I would do so in the event the problem arose.”

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Rothbard said a lot of things. Rothbard thought deflation was a wonderful thing in the depression because it would some how speed up the cleansing depression. Here is an alternative from Keynesian economist FA Hayek.
    Not a Hayek fan.

    Why Mises (and not Hayek)?
    By Hans-Hermann Hoppe

    Mises.org

    September 14, 2016

    Ludwig von Mises and F. A. Hayek are widely considered the most eminent classical liberal thinkers of this century. They are also the two best known Austrian economists. They were great scholars and great men. I was lucky to have them both as my teachers.… Yet it is clear that the world treats them very differently. Mises was denied the Nobel Prize for economics, which Hayek won the year after Mises’s death. Hayek is occasionally anthologized and read in college courses, when a spokesman for free enterprise absolutely cannot be avoided; Mises is virtually unknown in American academia. Even among organizations that support the free market in a general way, it is Hayek who is honored and invoked, while Mises is ignored or pushed into the background.

    I want to speculate — and present a thesis — why this is so and explain why I — and I take it most of us here — take a very different view. Why I (and presumably you) are Misesians and not Hayekians.

    My thesis is that Hayek’s greater prominence has little if anything to do with his economics. There is little difference in Mises’s and Hayek’s economics. Indeed, most economic ideas associated with Hayek were originated by Mises, and this fact alone would make Mises rank far above Hayek as an economist. But most of today’s professed Hayekians are not trained, economists. Few have actually read the books that are responsible for Hayek’s initial fame as an economist, i.e., his Monetary Theory and the Trade Cycle and his Prices and Production. And I venture the guess that there exist no more than 10 people alive today who have studied, from cover to cover, his Pure Theory of Capital.

    Rather, what explains Hayek’s greater prominence is Hayek’s work, mostly in the second half of his professional life, in the field of political philosophy — and here, in this field, the difference between Hayek and Mises is striking indeed.

    My thesis is essentially the same one also advanced by my friend Ralph Raico: Hayek is not a classical liberal at all, or a “Radikalliberaler” as the NZZ, as usual clueless, has just recently referred to him. Hayek is actually a moderate social democrat, and since we live in the age of social democracy, this makes him a “respectable” and “responsible” scholar. Hayek, as you may recall, dedicated his Road to Serfdom to “the socialists in all parties.” And the socialists in all parties now pay him back in using Hayek to present themselves as “liberals.”

    Instant Access to Current Spot Prices & Interactive Charts

    Now to the proof, and I rely for this mostly on the Constitution of Liberty, and his three-volume Law, Legislation, and Liberty which are generally regarded as Hayek’s most important contributions to the field of political theory.

    According to Hayek, government is “necessary” to fulfill the following tasks: not merely for “law enforcement” and “defense against external enemies” but “in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided, or cannot be provided adequately, by the market.” (Because at all times an infinite number of goods and services exist that the market does not provide, Hayek hands government a blank check.)

    Among these goods and services are:

    protection against violence, epidemics, or such natural forces as floods and avalanches, but also many of the amenities which make life in modern cities tolerable, most roads … the provision of standards of measure, and of many kinds of information ranging from land registers, maps and statistics to the certification of the quality of some goods or services offered in the market.

    Additional government functions include “the assurance of a certain minimum income for everyone”; government should “distribute its expenditure over time in such a manner that it will step in when private investment flags”; it should finance schools and research as well as enforce “building regulations, pure food laws, the certification of certain professions, the restrictions on the sale of certain dangerous goods (such as arms, explosives, poisons and drugs), as well as some safety and health regulations for the processes of production; and the provision of such public institutions as theaters, sports grounds, etc.”; and it should make use of the power of “eminent domain” to enhance the “public good.”

    Moreover, it generally holds that “there is some reason to believe that with the increase in general wealth and of the density of population, the share of all needs that can be satisfied only by collective action will continue to grow.”

    Further, government should implement an extensive system of compulsory insurance (“coercion intended to forestall greater coercion”), public, subsidized housing is a possible government task, and likewise “city planning” and “zoning” are considered appropriate government


    functions — provided that “the sum of the gains exceed the sum of the losses.” And lastly, “the provision of amenities of or opportunities for recreation, or the preservation of natural beauty or of historical sites or scientific interest … Natural parks, nature-reservations, etc.” are legitimate government tasks.

    In addition, Hayek insists we recognize that it is irrelevant how big government is or if and how fast it grows. What alone is important is that government actions fulfill certain formal requirements. “It is the character rather than the volume of government activity that is important.” Taxes as such and the absolute height of taxation are not a problem for Hayek. Taxes — and likewise compulsory military service — lose their character as coercive measures,

    if they are at least predictable and are enforced irrespective of how the individual would otherwise employ his energies; this deprives them largely of the evil nature of coercion. If the known necessity of paying a certain amount of taxes becomes the basis of all my plans, if a period of military service is a foreseeable part of my career, then I can follow a general plan of life of my own making and am as independent of the will of another person as men have learned to be in society.

    But please, it must be a proportional tax and general military service!

    I could go on and on, citing Hayek’s muddled and contradictory definitions of freedom and coercion, but that shall suffice to make my point. I am simply asking: what socialist and what green could have any difficulties with all this? Following Hayek, they can all proudly call themselves liberals.

    In distinct contrast, how refreshingly clear — and very different — is Mises! For him, the definition of liberalism can be condensed into a
    single term: private property. The state, for Mises, is legalized force, and its only function is to defend life and property by beating antisocial elements into submission. As for the rest, the government is “the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisonment. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.”

    Moreover (and this is for those who have not read much of Mises but invariably pipe up, “but even Mises is not an anarchist”), certainly the younger Mises allows for unlimited secession, down to the level of the individual, if one comes to the conclusion that government is not doing what it is supposed to do: to protect life and property. And the older Mises never repudiated this position. Mises, then, as my own intellectual master, Murray Rothbard, noted, is a laissez-faire radical: an extremist.

    The Best of Hans-Hermann Hoppe
    There is no spoon.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    I agree with you that the FED, fiat money, no gold standard and crony-capitalism has increased the problems substantially; but we differ in our view of trade deficits which I believe has been a major blow to the middle and working classes.
    I believe all the above is the direct cause of this major blow. And I also agree with RP that free trade prevents war.

    That said, I appreciate good dialog with you- we don't have to agree on everything but I highly respect your POV and input.
    There is no spoon.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post

    You can try to trade with Floyd the barber, but I'm going to use aggression to stimulate trade with Goober, because I have what's best in mind for you.


    That is what you are trying to sell. Nothing more.

    never ever go full retard.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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  14. #41

  15. #42
    This, coming from a company that owes its very existence to tariffs enacted over 30 years ago, designed to specifically save its ass.

    Not sure how much market share they will retain, selling motorcycles to a demographic getting too old to ride anymore and fat, tattooed lesbians.



    Harley-Davidson Warns Against Trump’s Tariffs While Laying Off American Manufacturing Workers

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...uring-workers/

    Harley-Davidson, the iconic American motorcycle company, is warning against President Trump’s proposed 25 percent tariffs on imported steel and ten percent tariff on imported aluminum while laying off American manufacturing workers.

    This week, Harley-Davidson released a statement on Trump’s proposed tariffs on steel and aluminum imports — primarily to protect American industries and jobs from a flood of cheap imported materials from China — saying the motorcycle would be hit, as far as sales, if the tariffs were enacted.

    <snip>

    Harley-Davidson, though, was protected by tariffs in the 1980s under President Ronald Reagan, when he raised tariffs on imported motorcycles. At the time, Harley-Davidson was “delighted” by the tariffs.

    The New York Times reported in 1983:

    The action was exceptional for protecting a single American company, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company of Milwaukee, the sole surviving American maker of motorcycles.

    The only comparable trade action by this Administration, the President’s decision last May to impose quotas on sugar imports for the first time since 1974, was aimed at an entire industry.

    ‘‘We’re delighted,” said Vaughn L. Beals, Harley-Davidson’s chairman. ”It will give us time that we might otherwise not have had to make manufacturing improvements and bring out new products.”

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I believe all the above is the direct cause of this major blow. And I also agree with RP that free trade prevents war.

    That said, I appreciate good dialog with you- we don't have to agree on everything but I highly respect your POV and input.
    Same here Ender. I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This, coming from a company that owes its very existence to tariffs enacted over 30 years ago, designed to specifically save its ass.

    Not sure how much market share they will retain, selling motorcycles to a demographic getting too old to ride anymore and fat, tattooed lesbians.
    Isn't this an excellent argument against tariffs? A company insulated from its own poor decisions by government fatwa, enabled to sell expensive, inferior products for decades. And yet despite this government assistance, it continues to struggle to stay afloat.

    See also: Chrysler.
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    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
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    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Isn't this an excellent argument against tariffs? A company insulated from its own poor decisions by government fatwa, enabled to sell expensive, inferior products for decades. And yet despite this government assistance, it continues to struggle to stay afloat.

    See also: Chrysler.
    Your whole argument hangs on assertions that are debatable and even if true the problems are caused by government regulations etc. and not by tariffs, America is a large enough country to create many competitors in a given industry if government would get out of the way.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Isn't this an excellent argument against tariffs? A company insulated from its own poor decisions by government fatwa, enabled to sell expensive, inferior products for decades. And yet despite this government assistance, it continues to struggle to stay afloat.

    See also: Chrysler.
    The company made good decisions in the wake of that, and went on to become one of the most recognized and sought after motorcycle brands, making millions of dollars and employing thousands of people.

    Mushy headed one worlders and Harvard MBA bean counters instead of real motorcycle guys like Vaughn Beals and Willie G. are going to be the downfall of HD.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I have no problem with your position. But that is not the position of the OP, which instead claims that taxation by way of tariffs is a positive good, and that it would be a bad thing to deprive the federal government of all revenue, since it needs money to advance America's general welfare and common defense.

    Johnwk rejects the claim that you and I agree on that taxation is theft.
    Federal taxation for functions not authorized by our written Constitution e.g., food stamps, public schools, foreign aid, public housing, etc., is theft. Federal taxation for functions authorized by our written constitution and which follow the constitutional rules which limited federal taxation, e.g., any direct tax must be apportioned, have been agree to, and you are free to call them what you will.


    JWK


    "To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen [a working person’s earned wage] and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes [our Washington Establishment’s Solyndra, Chevy Volt, Fisker, Exelon swindling deals] is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation."____ Savings and Loan Assc. v.Topeka,(1875).

  21. #48
    You never answered my question. What exactly do you mean Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression? Are you incapable of answering the question in your own words?

    JWK



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Overall our country lost $12 trillion in wealth since Bush 1. So-called free trade caused way more lay-offs of good living wage manufacturing jobs than any tariffs ever could; indeed it's gutted entire cities and towns. Those that would be laid off at the beginning because of higher steel prices from foreign imports could become the new employees of a new steel industry in this country.

    Your second point is noted, that's why I believe the attempt should be a dynamic tariff to obtain a $0 trade deficit in overall trade with another country which then would create many new manufacturing industries here, not just one industry. Done bilaterally with all countries, we then once again build a working and middle class who then can afford more expensive cars or widgets because the country itself is being lifted up. As I see it, only those not participating in the economy, ie. retirees living on savings and 401K's would be harmed by this because they are living on savings from a less prosperous time. But the country itself as a whole would be able to regain prosperity that has for so many years (since Bush 1) been lost to China and other 3rd world countries.

    As Buchanan noted, there will be initial pain. There would need to be buy in from the country as a whole. It will take time to re-build the prosperity lost by most of America's middle and working classes since Bush 1. It's a huge endeavor. But if we stay the course, one day we could again have a working and middle class making living wages instead of living off debt. I think it's worth it. Many do not. And many won't have the patience to go thru the initial years of difficulty. And in that case, we just continue as we have with our country losing it's prosperity to other countries with each coming year.
    Pat Buchanan is spot on!


    Also, keep in mind "free trade" begins with people being free to negotiate the value of their own labor. China does not engage in free trade.


    When a product is produced in China using what amounts to slave labor wages, and America adds a tariff to the product in the amount which the laborer in China ought to have been paid, it levels the playing field and the America consumer can choose to purchase a well manufactured article produced in America or the inferior similar product produced in China under slave labor conditions.

    The fact is, there are countless international corporate giants who have no allegiance to America or any country and have aligned themselves with the leaderships of oppressive countries to gain assess to slave labor in order to increase their profits, and have a competitive edge based on slavery which they use to destroy competitors where a fair market wage is paid.


    For America to not put a tariff on imports produced under slave labor conditions is tantamount to subsidizing slave labor.


    JWK




    The unavoidable truth is, our social democrat political leaders’ plan for “free” college tuition will be paid for by confiscating the paychecks of millions of college graduates who worked for and paid their own way through college and are now trying to finance their own economic needs.


  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You never answered my question. What exactly do you mean Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression? Are you incapable of answering the question in your own words?

    JWK
    Are you incapable of reading?

    The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of June 1930, raised American tariffs to unprecedented levels, which practically closed our borders to foreign goods. According to most economic historians, this was the crowning folly of the whole period from 1920 to 1933 and the beginning of the real depression. “Once we raised our tariffs,” wrote Benjamin Anderson, an irresistible movement all over the world to raise tariffs and to erect other trade barriers, including quotas, began. Protectionism ran wild over the world. Markets were cut off. Trade lines were narrowed. Unemployment in the export industries all over the world grew with great rapidity. Farm prices in the United States dropped sharply through the whole of 1930, but the most rapid rate of decline came following the passage of the tariff bill.
    There is no spoon.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Federal taxation for functions not authorized by our written Constitution e.g., food stamps, public schools, foreign aid, public housing, etc., is theft. Federal taxation for functions authorized by our written constitution and which follow the constitutional rules which limited federal taxation, e.g., any direct tax must be apportioned, have been agree to, and you are free to call them what you will.


    JWK


    "To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen [a working person’s earned wage] and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes [our Washington Establishment’s Solyndra, Chevy Volt, Fisker, Exelon swindling deals] is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation."____ Savings and Loan Assc. v.Topeka,(1875).
    Theft is theft. Putting something in the Constitution doesn't change that.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Are you incapable of reading?
    You still did not answer my question. What exactly do you mean Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression? Are you incapable of answering the question in your own words?


    JWK

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You still did not answer my question. What exactly do you mean Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression? Are you incapable of answering the question in your own words?


    JWK
    Is this plain enough?
    In 1930, the US economy was in a small recession.
    Under Harding, the 1922 recession had recovered quickly.

    Under Hoover, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act raised costs & created immense trade barriers.

    Because of this:
    American farm exports, which had supported American agriculture & been as high as 55% fell to below 1/5 of what they had been previously.
    Hundreds of thousands of farmers went bankrupt.
    Unemployment shot to 8 million+.

    Hoover objected to lowered costs/prices/spending and raised deficit spending & borrowing.
    Hoover got the Fed Gov involved in industry & allowed no dropping of prices/wages etc.
    He also instilled the Revenue Act of 1932, which doubled income tax, and raised all taxes to a unprecedented high.

    Read Murray Rothbard’s: America’s Great Depression.
    There is no spoon.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Is this plain enough?
    No. I'm waiting for you to use your own words explaining what you mean by Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression.


    JWK

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    No. I'm waiting for you to use your own words explaining what you mean by Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression.


    JWK
    Those are my words.

    And, if I had originally posted my "own words" you would have wanted "proof", so to stop all the nonsense, I posted from a reliable source first.
    There is no spoon.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Those are my words.

    And, if I had originally posted my "own words" you would have wanted "proof", so to stop all the nonsense, I posted from a reliable source first.
    They still do not explain what you mean by Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression. Are you incapable of explaining what you mean by "confirmed"?


    JWK



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    They still do not explain what you mean by Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression. Are you incapable of explaining what you mean by "confirmed"?


    JWK
    The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression.

    Does that help you understand a little better?
    There is no spoon.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    They still do not explain what you mean by Smoot-Hawley "confirmed" the Great Depression. Are you incapable of explaining what you mean by "confirmed"?


    JWK
    More of a "reaffirm" then confirm. Not sure if he meant that but tarrifs, especially protectionist tariffs and tax cuts during a recession is a last ditch effort for the cronies to steal as much wealth as possible from the dumb populace before a depression ala hungry hungry hippos. Tarrifs create artificial industries to stop people from rising up against a government who takes too much. The next step is the US Government will be forced to start taking from other nations when there is no more to take from ours.

  34. #59
    Smoot-Hawley was the designated scapegoat for the Federal Reserve's deliberate destruction of the economy, yes starting a trade war while you have a trade surplus was stupid but it was inconsequential compared to the actions of the banksters.

    Blaming Smoot-Hawley for the great depression is spreading bankster propaganda.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Smoot-Hawley was the designated scapegoat for the Federal Reserve's deliberate destruction of the economy, yes starting a trade war while you have a trade surplus was stupid but it was inconsequential compared to the actions of the banksters.

    Blaming Smoot-Hawley for the great depression is spreading bankster propaganda.
    Right. Maybe you should listen to that bankster-propagandist, Ron Paul.

    http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/...out-hoover-fdr
    There is no spoon.

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