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Thread: President Trump is right about taxing at our water’s edge.

  1. #91
    “Economists around the country argued to the Republican Congress that this would only hurt the world economy, and the United States economy,” Barfield says. (Before the political parties realigned in the mid-20th century, the Democrats were the “free trade” party.)

    And they were right. Although it did not cause the onset of the Great Depression, it did help extend it. Other countries responded to the United States’ tariffs by putting up their restrictions on international trade, which just made it harder for the United States to pull itself out of its depression.

    In effect, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act “prolonged [the depression] and possibly deepened it around the world, not just in the United States but for other countries,” he says.

    https://www.history.com/news/trade-w...p-smoot-hawley
    There is no spoon.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The return of Republicans to national power in 1920 led to a resumption of protectionist legislation. By now a power in the Senate, Smoot was a close economic adviser to Presidents Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover. In 1923 the Fordney-McCumber Tariff raised rates again, including those on Cuban sugar, a direct competitor with Utah's beet sugar industry. With Smoot's ascension to the chairmanship of the Finance Committee even higher rates were assured. In 1930 President Hoover signed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff which boosted average duties on imports to 53 percent, the highest in American history. While Smoot saw this legislation as the culmination of his protectionist career, most economists then and since have assailed the tariff's disastrous effect on world trade at a time when the domestic economy of the U.S. was already suffering. The higher rates, about one-third greater than previous duties, made it more difficult for foreign nations to purchase American goods and pay off their war debts. In retaliation, some twenty-five nations raised their duties, making American goods more expensive. By the time the Democrats took power in 1932 and lowered the tariffs under the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act in 1934 the world economy was in a tailspin.

    http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_cha...ariff1930.html

    I'd +rep you for your multiple excellent posts this morning if I could. Sadly, your opponents will almost certainly just ignore the facts and continue propagating their nationalistic mythology.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  4. #93
    Ron Paul: The Case for Free Trade


    05/22/2015Mises Institute

    Although we think of ourselves as a free-trading nation, it takes more than 700 pages just to list all the tariffs on imported goods, and another 400 to inventory all the non-tariff restraints, such as quotas and "orderly marketing agreements."

    A tariff is a tax levied on a foreign good, to help a special interest at the expense of American consumers.

    A trade restraint or marketing agreement—on the number of inexpensive Taiwanese sneakers that Americans can buy, for example—achieves the same goal, at the same cost, in a less forthright manner.

    And all the trends are towards more subsidies for U.S. exporters, and more prohibitions and taxes on imports.

    Trade is to be subsidized or restrained, not left to the voluntary actions of consumers and producers.

    In 1930, Congress passed the Smoot-Hawley tariff bill, imposing heavy tariffs on imports, with the avowed motive of "protecting" U.S. companies and jobs. Within one year, our 25 major trading partners had retaliated with their own tariffs on American goods. World trade declined sharply, and the depression was made world-wide and longer-lasting.

    Today the policy of protectionism is again gaining favor in Congress, and in other countries. But it must be fought with all our strength.

    Not only does protectionism make everyone poorer—except certain special interests—but it also increases international tensions, and can lead to war.

    "If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it," wrote Adam Smith in 1776, "better buy it of them with some part of the pro duce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage. The general industry of the country will not therefore be diminished... but only left to find out the way in which it can be employed to the greater advantage."

    An important economic principle is called the division of labor. It states that economic efficiency, and therefore growth, is enhanced by everyone doing what he does best.

    If I had to grow my own food, make my own clothes, build my own house, and teach my own children, our family's living standard would plummet to a subsistence, or below-subsistence, level.
    There is no spoon.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    I'd +rep you for your multiple excellent posts this morning if I could. Sadly, your opponents will almost certainly just ignore the facts and continue propagating their nationalistic mythology.
    No prob about the rep- just seeing if there are some who actually can read and then WAKE UP.

    There is no spoon.

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post

    [B]What the Smoot Hawley Act Can Teach . . . .
    It apparently has not taught you anything, or, you are using it to post false assertions in order to disrupt an intelligent discussion regarding the use of taxes at our water's edge to advance the general welfare of the United States.


    You asserted Smoot-Hawley " . . . turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression."


    JWK





    American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance the economic needs of millions of poverty stricken, poorly educated, low and unskilled aliens who have invaded America borders.


  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    It apparently has not taught you anything, or, you are using it to post false assertions in order to disrupt an intelligent discussion regarding the use of taxes at our water's edge to advance the general welfare of the United States.


    You asserted Smoot-Hawley " . . . turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression."


    JWK





    American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance the economic needs of millions of poverty stricken, poorly educated, low and unskilled aliens who have invaded America borders.

    Reading is your friend.

    Ron Paul:

    In 1930, Congress passed the Smoot-Hawley tariff bill, imposing heavy tariffs on imports, with the avowed motive of "protecting" U.S. companies and jobs. Within one year, our 25 major trading partners had retaliated with their own tariffs on American goods. World trade declined sharply, and the depression was made world-wide and longer-lasting.
    There is no spoon.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    It apparently has not taught you anything, or, you are using it to post false assertions in order to disrupt an intelligent discussion regarding the use of taxes at our water's edge to advance the general welfare of the United States.


    You asserted Smoot-Hawley " . . . turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression."
    What exactly is your objection to what he said? Is it that by 1930 it was already a depression and not just a minor recession?

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    I'd +rep you for your multiple excellent posts this morning if I could. Sadly, your opponents will almost certainly just ignore the facts and continue propagating their nationalistic mythology.

    Unsubstantiated opinions and assertions are worth rep points? The fact is, economists still, to this date, babble on and on as to what caused the great depression. Additionally, an irrefutable fact is, the Smoot-Hawley Act had a very small, statistically confirmed, impact on the depression.


    Another irrefutable fact is, taxes used at our water's edge are a very important tool which can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States.


    JWK




    The unavoidable truth is, our social democrat political leaders’ plan for “free” college tuition will be paid for by confiscating the paychecks of millions of college graduates who worked for and paid their own way through college and are now trying to finance their own economic needs.


  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Additionally, an irrefutable fact is, the Smoot-Hawley Act had a very small, statistically confirmed, impact on the depression.


    Another irrefutable fact is, taxes used at our water's edge are a very important tool which can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
    A lot of people, including the man this website is named after, and those who agree with this website's mission, refute both of the facts you consider irrefutable.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    A lot of people, including the man this website is named after, and those who agree with this website's mission, refute both of the facts you consider irrefutable.

    Since they're capable of being refuted, and many very credible experts do so, calling them "facts" is giving them some. A LOT, actually.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Reading is your friend.

    Ron Paul:
    Your adolescent extremely large type font does not change the fact that the S/H Act had a very small impact on the depression.


    And, what does your assertion have to do with the fact that taxes at our water's edge are a very important tool which can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States? Is that question too complicated for you to address in an intelligent manner? Are you more interested in obfuscations, deflections and avoiding that subject and prefer to continue with you intended distractions?


    JWK




    80% of green energy money taxed away from the wages of hard working American Citizens WENT TO our Washington sewer rat donors!


  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Your adolescent extremely large type font does not change the fact that the S/H Act had a very small impact on the depression.


    And, what does your assertion have to do with the fact that taxes at our water's edge are a very important tool which can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States?
    You keep using the word "fact." I don't think you know what it means.

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    A lot of people, including the man this website is named after, and those who agree with this website's mission, refute both of the facts you consider irrefutable.
    Now that's odd because when I met with Ron Paul in 1984, he agreed with Congress' use of power to encourage America's ship building industry under our nation's first revenue raising act. At least, that was the impression he gave me and my associate during our meeting.


    JWK




    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“
    ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.


  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Now that's odd because when I met with Ron Paul in 1984, he agreed with Congress' use of power to encourage America's ship building industry under our nation's first revenue raising act. At least, that was the impression he gave me and my associate during our meeting.
    Unless he changed his position since then, your impression was mistaken. It's interesting that you can't cite any public statements he's made, nor even anything he specifically actually said to you, and have to rely on your impression about some warm fuzzy feelings you had 33 years ago.

    Over the lifespan of this website, Ron Paul's consistent position on tariffs has been the diametric opposite of yours.



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Your adolescent extremely large type font does not change the fact that the S/H Act had a very small impact on the depression.


    And, what does your assertion have to do with the fact that taxes at our water's edge are a very important tool which can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States? Is that question too complicated for you to address in an intelligent manner? Are you more interested in obfuscations, deflections and avoiding that subject and prefer to continue with you intended distractions?


    JWK




    80% of green energy money taxed away from the wages of hard working American Citizens WENT TO our Washington sewer rat donors!

    Just copying your screaming, dude.

    I gave you facts from many sources, that state what the Smoot/Hawley Act did and how it increased and extended the drepression, but you don't care to have a conversation about it- you only want to insult.
    There is no spoon.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Now that's odd because when I met with Ron Paul in 1984, he agreed with Congress' use of power to encourage America's ship building industry under our nation's first revenue raising act. At least, that was the impression he gave me and my associate during our meeting.


    JWK




    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“
    ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

    That hardly qualified as a tariff at all. It wasn't imposed on any particular imported good. It was more of a port tax imposed on foreign-built ships using American docks.

    It was 1789, and the U.S. was still in the process of building its shipwright industry from nothing. That's hardly analogous to the present day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Amash is wrong...

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    That hardly qualified as a tariff at all. It wasn't imposed on any particular imported good. It was more of a port tax imposed on foreign-built ships using American docks.

    It was 1789, and the U.S. was still in the process of building its shipwright industry from nothing. That's hardly analogous to the present day.
    So, are you agreeing taxing at our water's edge can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States?


    JWK

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Just copying your screaming, dude.

    I gave you facts from many sources, that state what the Smoot/Hawley Act did and how it increased and extended the drepression, but you don't care to have a conversation about it- you only want to insult.
    You falsely asserted Smoot-Hawley " . . . turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression."




    JWK

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You falsely asserted Smoot-Hawley " . . . turned the minor recession into the full blown Great Depression."
    Again, what part of that do you object to?

    When Smoot Hawley became law, the US was already in a recession. After that, the economic downturn continued to last and deepened into a depression. Smoot Hawley was one major factor that contributed to that.

    It looks to me like the way Ender said it is pretty unobjectionable.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Again, what part of that do you object to?

    When Smoot Hawley became law, the US was already in a recession. After that, the economic downturn continued to last and deepened into a depression. Smoot Hawley was one major factor that contributed to that.

    It looks to me like the way Ender said it is pretty unobjectionable.
    I don't agree with the statement at all. It was bad policy just like Hoover raising taxes dramatically was bad policy. It was one policy of many bad policies that started with Hoover and then FDR that made America less productive.

    Do you honestly believe Smoot Hawley was the major reason for so many businesses going bankrupt and the bank failures? The country had tariffs throughout history. There was never a result like this.

  24. #111
    I don't have a problem with uniform tariffs at waters edge as user fees to fund ports and finance a navy to defend shipping lanes.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    So, are you agreeing taxing at our water's edge can be used to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States?


    JWK
    You don't even seem to know whether you're interested in tariffs or beach user fees. Why don't we just tax seashells and clams?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Amash is wrong...



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I don't agree with the statement at all. It was bad policy just like Hoover raising taxes dramatically was bad policy. It was one policy of many bad policies that started with Hoover and then FDR that made America less productive.

    Do you honestly believe Smoot Hawley was the major reason for so many businesses going bankrupt and the bank failures? The country had tariffs throughout history. There was never a result like this.
    Smoot Hawley significantly increased tariffs. The effects were exacerbated by deflation. And they then caused further harm through the retaliatory increases in tariffs by other countries.

    As of 1930, when Smoot Hawley was passed, yes, I think it was probably the major reason (although, notice that I previously only said "one" not "the") for the prolonging of the recession at that point in time. Subsequent to that both Hoover and Roosevelt signed many other interventions into law that did even more damage. But by 1931, it was no longer just a recession, but a depression, and Ender said in the quote that johnwk finds so objectionable.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-14-2018 at 02:59 PM.

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You don't even seem to know whether you're interested in tariffs or beach user fees. Why don't we just tax seashells and clams?



    JWK



    There was a time not too long ago in New York when the able-bodied were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now, New York City and many other major cities are infested with countless government cheese factions from crap hole countries, who not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs, sex, and Lotto tickets.


  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I don't agree with the statement at all. It was bad policy just like Hoover raising taxes dramatically was bad policy. It was one policy of many bad policies that started with Hoover and then FDR that made America less productive.

    Do you honestly believe Smoot Hawley was the major reason for so many businesses going bankrupt and the bank failures? The country had tariffs throughout history. There was never a result like this.
    You can't reason with some folks, especially when their mission is to disrupt any productive discussion concerning the use of taxes at our waters' edge to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States.


    JWK




    The unavoidable truth is, our social democrat political leaders’ plan for “free” college tuition will be paid for by confiscating the paychecks of millions of college graduates who worked for and paid their own way through college and are now trying to finance their own economic needs.


  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You can't reason with some folks, especially when their mission is to disrupt any productive discussion concerning the use of taxes at our waters' edge to advance the common defense and general welfare of the United States.
    To be clear, I don't agree tariffs are good policy at all. I think they are brain-dead. So I wasn't agreeing with what you are saying in the thread outside the narrow point on Smoot-Hawley causing the Depression.

    The major cause of the beginning of the Depression was a deliberate policy of letting the money supply collapse. If that doesn't happen, there is no deflationary spiral where people can't service debt which lead to bank failures. The economy immediately started recovering when FDR devalued the dollar when he cut the link to gold.

  31. #117
    So how exactly do the steel and aluminum tariffs advance our "general welfare and common defense"? I'm genuinely curious what you think, @johnwk?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk
    while Congress then freely taxes and regulates to death America’s domestic manufactures
    I'm not sure that taxing imported goods to level the playing field with our excessively taxed goods here at home is the right approach. Seems it might be better for all parties if we instead reduced our taxes here at home as to match the supposedly less taxed goods from elsewhere.

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    To be clear, I don't agree tariffs are good policy at all. I think they are brain-dead. So I wasn't agreeing with what you are saying in the thread outside the narrow point on Smoot-Hawley causing the Depression.

    The major cause of the beginning of the Depression was a deliberate policy of letting the money supply collapse. If that doesn't happen, there is no deflationary spiral where people can't service debt which lead to bank failures. The economy immediately started recovering when FDR devalued the dollar when he cut the link to gold.
    I didn't suggest you agree or disagree with tariffs. And, I personally would not make a broad brush positive or negative comment concerning tariffs. Each must be judged upon its merits or drawbacks.


    In regard to what you posted about the money supply during that time period, contemporary newspapers articles of the time confirm your opinion. I am one who actually researched that time period while at the University of Maryland while engaged in a lengthy project.


    JWK

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