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Thread: Trump on Tariffs: Punish China By Taxing Americans - Ron Paul Liberty Report

  1. #91

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    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.



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  3. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    We're talking about tariffs.
    And subsidies are the flip side of the coin, but to stick to tariffs:

    Originally Posted by Madison320

    I posted this earlier:

    "Suppose Tariffia and Freetradia both want to make cars. Freetradia has all the steel. Tariffia has all the rubber. Since Freetradia has access to cheap steel and rubber it can make cars for 10K. Tariffia has no steel so it has to use carbon fiber and other various expensive or inferior substances. Tariffia can make cars for 100K. If you live in Freetradia you are going to buy the 10K cars manufactured locally, not the 100K cars manufactured in Tariffia. The manufacturer in Tariffia, even though permitted to sell to Freetradia, won't be able to sell any cars there because it costs to much to make them. On top of that Tariffia won't even be able to sell many cars to their own citizens because they're TOO EXPENSIVE!"

    In other words Tariffia will only be able to sell cars in Tariffia due to a comparative disadvantage, and Freetradia will only be able to sell cars in Freetradia due to fiat. But the Freetradia company will be able to sell MORE cars because they are more affordable. This example assumes equal populations in Tariffia and Freetradia.




    For one thing Tariffia won't place a tariff on steel, they aren't stupid, they will tariff only those things they can produce for themselves at a low enough price to still compete in Freetradia's car market while denying Freetradian car makers access to their domestic market.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    For one thing Tariffia won't place a tariff on steel, they aren't stupid, they will tariff only those things they can produce for themselves at a low enough price to still compete in Freetradia's car market while denying Freetradian car makers access to their domestic market.

    If Tariffia only puts tariffs on things it can already produce just as cheap as foreign goods, it's the same as not having tariffs. They'd have no effect because in that case everyone would be buying the local product anyway.

    Tariffs are used specifically to make imported goods more expensive. In this case Trump's steel tariffs are going to raise the cost of steel in the US. And that will raise the production costs of US manufacturers.

  5. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    If Tariffia only puts tariffs on things it can already produce just as cheap as foreign goods, it's the same as not having tariffs. They'd have no effect because in that case everyone would be buying the local product anyway.

    Tariffs are used specifically to make imported goods more expensive. In this case Trump's steel tariffs are going to raise the cost of steel in the US. And that will raise the production costs of US manufacturers.
    I didn't say it would only puts tariffs on things it can already produce just as cheap as foreign goods, I said it would only tariff things that it could produce without making the end product non-competitive in the Freetradian market, it would only raise it's costs a little here and there.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #95

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    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  7. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't say it would only puts tariffs on things it can already produce just as cheap as foreign goods, I said it would only tariff things that it could produce without making the end product non-competitive in the Freetradian market, it would only raise it's costs a little here and there.
    Don't you see the problem there? If you make the tariffs small enough so that they won't make a difference, what's the point of having tariffs?



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  9. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't say it would only puts tariffs on things it can already produce just as cheap as foreign goods, I said it would only tariff things that it could produce without making the end product non-competitive in the Freetradian market, it would only raise it's costs a little here and there.
    Yeah, because that is the proper role of government.

    Damn, folks. So much to learn about liberty.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  10. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Yeah, because that is the proper role of government.

    Damn, folks. So much to learn about liberty.
    Try to pay attention, I wasn't describing what we should do, I was describing what other countries do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Don't you see the problem there? If you make the tariffs small enough so that they won't make a difference, what's the point of having tariffs?
    It does make a difference, they get access to both markets (exclusive access to their market) while remaining competitive in Freetradia's market, the Freetradians are locked out of the Tariffian market while loosing market share in their own market, if that isn't enough to put them out of business slowly then Tariffia moves on to subsidizing their producers.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It does make a difference, they get access to both markets (exclusive access to their market) while remaining competitive in Freetradia's market, the Freetradians are locked out of the Tariffian market while loosing market share in their own market, if that isn't enough to put them out of business slowly then Tariffia moves on to subsidizing their producers.
    No because for the tariffs to be low enough to not affect Tariffia's production costs they'd also be low enough to not affect Freetradia's exports to Tariffia. Freetradia would NOT be locked out of Tariffia.

  13. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    No because for the tariffs to be low enough to not affect Tariffia's production costs they'd also be low enough to not affect Freetradia's exports to Tariffia. Freetradia would NOT be locked out of Tariffia.
    The tariffs on finished products will be high enough to lock out Freetradia as will the tariffs on anything Tariffia can make at a low enough cost to stay competitive in the Freetradian market.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The tariffs on finished products will be high enough to lock out Freetradia as will the tariffs on anything Tariffia can make at a low enough cost to stay competitive in the Freetradian market.
    So you're saying that tariffs will only work as long as they are only placed on finished products? You're conceding that they don't work on raw materials?

  15. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    So you're saying that tariffs will only work as long as they are only placed on finished products? You're conceding that they don't work on raw materials?
    I said no such thing, I said the tariffs would be placed on anything that Tariffia could produce while still remaining competitive in the Freetradian market, that includes raw materials.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I said no such thing, I said the tariffs would be placed on anything that Tariffia could produce while still remaining competitive in the Freetradian market, that includes raw materials.
    I already explained why that wouldn't work.



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  18. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I already explained why that wouldn't work.
    No you didn't.
    You keep pretending that they must have a ham handed approach when they can use a nuanced one instead.
    While we are at it your whole thought experiment ignores the fact that there are more than two countries in the world, Tariffia can negotiate favorable trade agreements with other sources of supply while Freetradia is preyed upon by every other country.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No you didn't.
    You keep pretending that they must have a ham handed approach when they can use a nuanced one instead.
    While we are at it your whole thought experiment ignores the fact that there are more than two countries in the world, Tariffia can negotiate favorable trade agreements with other sources of supply while Freetradia is preyed upon by every other country.
    Would you say that Ron Paul would only make a good president in the theoretical world, but that in the real world Trump is better?

  20. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Would you say that Ron Paul would only make a good president in the theoretical world, but that in the real world Trump is better?
    No, Ron is right on more things than Trump, and on more important things as well.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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