Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 107

Thread: Trump on Tariffs: Punish China By Taxing Americans - Ron Paul Liberty Report

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    You're assuming we're better off with tariffs if everyone else has tariffs on us.

    Suppose there's only 2 countries in the world. Tariffia and Freetradia. Tariffia puts a 1000% tariff on all goods from Freetradia, essentially making it illegal for Freetradia to sell goods to Tariffia, but at least Freetradia still can buy goods from Tariffia. Would Freetradia be better off if they "retaliated" and also put a 1000% tariff on goods from Tariffia? Then Freetradia can neither sell nor buy from Tariffia. At least before Freetradia could still buy stuff.

    The real problem is that we are not competitive because we are not the most free country anymore. Our government is too big. We need to reduce the size of government to become competitive. There'll be plenty of buyers if we can sell good stuff at a cheap price.
    The tariffs are bad enough but we might be able to ignore them as you say (EDIT: SEE THOUGHTOMATOR"S POST ABOVE), what we must respond to is the export subsidies that are designed to destroy our industries and make us dependent on others for our needs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What must be protected from the economic warfare of other nations isn't the "jobs" it is the infrastructure, the education, and the experience, all of the things that make it possible for you to do the work for yourself if the need arises.

    If picking up the driftwood plank costs you your axe then to do so IS to ruin yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There are thresholds below which you no longer have the capacity to rebuild in any reasonable length of time or before you are forced to surrender to the enemy, the south lost the war of northern aggression because as Rhett Butler puts it in Gone with the wind "there is not a cannon factory in the whole south".

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    OK so in the real world this is what would happen. All the industries would move to Tariffia to avoid the tariffs while being able to sell to both countries. Freetradia would end up economically barren as Tariffia acquired all its economic assets.
    Industries located in Tariffia would be able to sell to both countries, but they can only buy their supplies from Tariffia.

    But Freetradia industries would have an advantage because they can make their products cheaper. It works both ways.

    Speaking of the "Real World", how do you explain the fact that countries with protectionist policies tend to have lower standards of living and vice versa?

    Here's a more realistic scenario. There's 100 countries, 50 are free trade, 50 are total protectionist. If you locate your widget factory in a protectionist country your cost is going to be triple compared to in a free trade country, since you have to buy all your supplies in your own country. In that case it's a no brainer, you're going to locate in a free trade country. If you make your widgets in the protectionist country the only place you can sell them is that country. If you make widgets in one of the 50 free trade countries you can sell them to any of the other free trade countries.
    Last edited by Madison320; 03-07-2018 at 04:11 PM.



  4. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  5. #33
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-28-2018 at 01:33 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Personally, I think that if you want individuals in the US to refrain from purchasing less expensive goods from another country, then you should have to convince them rather than force them.
    At one time Americans bought American. Made in the U.S.A. meant quality and durability at an affordable price. Then globalists pushed for unfair trade while increasing regulations killed American industry. American companies were forced to lower their standards so that the could compete with the flood of cheap foreign $#@!. $#@! that was designed with the sole purpose of causing aneurysms in the brain of every American male. Aneurysms caused by the necessity to spend twice as much time getting a piece of $#@! to work than it did working for you.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Industries located in Tariffia would be able to sell to both countries, but they can only buy their supplies from Tariffia.
    That wouldn't be a problem for them AT ALL as their competition in Freetradia would be destroyed. They'd have no competition from Freetradia at all in the Tariffian market, and at the same time could compete on even terms in Freetradia. Any businessman making a pure dollars-and-cents calculation would move his company to Tariffia for the same exact reasons so many US companies moved to other countries. In a rather short period of time, they would only buy their supplies from Tariffia because all the producers in Freetradia would be out of business. That's why, for example, there's no such thing as a US-made smart phone, even though we invented the damn things.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    At one time Americans bought American. Made in the U.S.A. meant quality and durability at an affordable price. Then globalists pushed for unfair trade while increasing regulations killed American industry. American companies were forced to lower their standards so that the could compete with the flood of cheap foreign $#@!. $#@! that was designed with the sole purpose of causing aneurysms in the brain of every American male. Aneurysms caused by the necessity to spend twice as much time getting a piece of $#@! to work than it did working for you.
    Holy $#@!. My opinion of you just went up for the first time in years. We need to mark a holiday or something.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Personally, I think that if you want individuals in the US to refrain from purchasing less expensive goods from another country, then you should have to convince them rather than force them.
    Americans were convinced of that, which is why they voted Trump.

    The existing web of international trade agreements forbids the simple solution you offer. Tariffs are a step in the direction of unwinding those agreements so that the voluntary exchange you wish for might actually have a shot of occurring for real.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Holy $#@!. My opinion of you just went up for the first time in years. We need to mark a holiday or something.
    I just felt a thrill going up my leg.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Personally, I think that if you want individuals in the US to refrain from purchasing less expensive goods from another country, then you should have to convince them rather than force them.
    And one convinces corrupted imbecilic children... how, exactly? This is not to say force is good or right, but we then come down to what we want more - what is more important, - sticking to a principle, or gaining a practical result. Recall what... who was it, Ben Franklin, said about slavish devotions?

    China runs the largest slave labor market on the planet. By way of that market, they produce the world's goods at rates other nations cannot match. This violates the most basic tenets of free market economies. China is by no means doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. I could be wrong, but so far as I can see China has big ambitions for global influence, if not outright dominion, at least in such terms that best guarantee protection from international threats. That last bit would be understandable, given China's more recent history of colonization by the likes of the Brits.

    So what, then, is the practical solution here? We have a major world power rigging the global markets with slave labor at next to no cost, thereby luring in hordes of manufacturers from all over the world, lending China vast economic power. You have a national consumer market made of willful nitwits who, on the average, are driven almost solely by price. How, pray you tell us, do you expect to get such people to do what we might loosely term "the right thing"?

    Those same people, on the average, could give a rat's ass about their most fundamental, inborn rights. How are you going to get them to care enough about the better economic path for the nation in which they reside to not buy Chinese products? Answer: force. I know it sucks ass, but recall how the Framers warned us about the oil-vinegar incompatibility of freedom and stupidity. Free men cannot remain that way for long if they bootholes and nitwits. Who here will argue otherwise?

    That leaves us with precious few alternatives. Ideally, the best would be to free the markets properly such that industry returns to America. That, however, is not going to happen when $14/hr labor has to compete with $0.45/hr labor from China. $#@!'s sake man, we're shipping our damned chickens to China for processing and then back to America for sale because it's cheaper than doing it here! I cannot see another way around this problem, off the top of my head, besides slowing sales via import tariffs. Perhaps I am suffering one of my very rare failures in creative thinking - I almost pride myself on the ability to find solutions nobody else has considered - but on this one I seem to be drawing blanks on better alternatives.

    But if you have an idea, please and by all means share it. To put it to you more formally: what can we do here in America, given the realities of Chinese slave labor coupled with American high technology located there, as well as a consumer population comprised of enough dimwits, that would cause those dimwits to shift away from Chinese products in favor of those made in America? Here, I mean specifics and not broad philosophical notions - we have plenty of those that are for all intents and practical purposes perfect. What do we do, tactically speaking, to cause this sea change in American spending habits?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I just felt a thrill going up my leg.
    Get a room.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



  13. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    At one time Americans bought American. Made in the U.S.A. meant quality and durability at an affordable price. Then globalists pushed for unfair trade while increasing regulations killed American industry. American companies were forced to lower their standards so that the could compete with the flood of cheap foreign $#@!. $#@! that was designed with the sole purpose of causing aneurysms in the brain of every American male. Aneurysms caused by the necessity to spend twice as much time getting a piece of $#@! to work than it did working for you.
    Don't you want more cheap crap from China? Think about the amount of oil it takes to send this crap over here. Some say the China trade is an oil industry subsidy.

  15. #42
    Harry Browne on tariffs:

    The government prohibits some imports and taxes others. … the real reason is to reward the industries with the most political influence.
    The principal barriers to imports are tariffs that make foreign goods more expensive for you to buy. The tariffs also make American products more expensive by increasing the cost of imported raw materials. And the tariffs make some foreign products so expensive they can’t compete here-leaving you no alternative to more costly American versions.
    In addition … foreign products can be banned entirely …
    Import barriers cost Americans about $70 billion a year-roughly about $700 for every American household. …
    The US should immediately spread the existing tariff revenue evenly over all imported products, reducing tariffs to roughly 2%. Tariffs should never be used as a political tool to reward influential industries and companies.
    http://www.issues2000.org/Frontline/...mmigration.htm


    • No import tariffs, regardless of human rights. (May 1996)
    • Tariffs cost Americans $70B a year. (Sep 2000)
    • Replace WTO & NAFTA with uniformly low tariffs. (Jan 2000)
    • No import tariffs, regardless of human rights. (May 1996)

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Harry_Browne.htm
    Last edited by AZJoe; 03-07-2018 at 06:56 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Don't you want more cheap crap from China? Think about the amount of oil it takes to send this crap over here. Some say the China trade is an oil industry subsidy.
    Obviously fuel costs aren't an issue.

    Bridge Comes to San Francisco With a Made-in-China Label

    SHANGHAI — Talk about outsourcing.

    At a sprawling manufacturing complex here, hundreds of Chinese laborers are now completing work on the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

    Next month, the last four of more than two dozen giant steel modules — each with a roadbed segment about half the size of a football field — will be loaded onto a huge ship and transported 6,500 miles to Oakland. There, they will be assembled to fit into the eastern span of the new Bay Bridge.

    The project is part of China’s continual move up the global economic value chain — from cheap toys to Apple iPads to commercial jetliners — as it aims to become the world’s civil engineer.

    The assembly work in California, and the pouring of the concrete road surface, will be done by Americans. But construction of the bridge decks and the materials that went into them are a Made in China affair. California officials say the state saved hundreds of millions of dollars by turning to China.
    In New York City alone, Chinese companies have won contracts to help renovate the subway system, refurbish the Alexander Hamilton Bridge over the Harlem River and build a new Metro-North train platform near Yankee Stadium. As with the Bay Bridge, American union labor would carry out most of the work done on United States soil. < Except for the steel workers union. $#@! them. Bunch of Republican voting rednecks. p4p>
    But California officials and executives at American Bridge said Zhenhua’s advantages included its huge steel fabrication facilities, its large low-cost work force and its solid finances. (The company even had its own port and ships.) <All State engineered. p4p>
    “I don’t think the U.S. fabrication industry could put a project like this together,” Brian A. Petersen, project director for the American Bridge/Fluor Enterprises joint venture, said in a telephone interview. “Most U.S. companies don’t have these types of warehouses, equipment or the cash flow. <I wonder $#@!ing why? p4p> The Chinese load the ships, and it’s their ships that deliver to our piers.”
    Pan Zhongwang, a 55-year-old steel polisher, is a typical Zhenhua worker. He arrives at 7 a.m. and leaves at 11 p.m., often working seven days a week. He lives in a company dorm and earns about $12 a day.

    “It used to be $9 a day, now it’s $12,” he said Wednesday morning, while polishing one of the decks for the new Bay Bridge. “Everything is getting more expensive. They should raise our pay.” <Seems Zhongwang is living the new American dream. p4p>
    Asked about reports that some American labor groups had blocked bridge shipments from arriving in Oakland, Mr. Anziano dismissed those as confused.

    “That was not about China,” he said. “It was a disagreement between unions about which had jurisdiction and who had the right to unload a shipment. That was resolved.” <People were paid off. It's all good. Capisce? p4p>
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/bu.../26bridge.html

  17. #44
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-28-2018 at 01:35 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Obviously fuel costs aren't an issue.
    Of course not.



    Great comment section:

    Abraham Lincoln once said, "If we buy a ton of steel from England, it will cost us $25. We will have the steel and England will have the $25. But if we buy the ton of steel in America for $30, we will have the money and the steel." I can't remember the exact words, but that's the basics of it. If we spend a little more on buying in America, we will have the jobs as well. It's time to stop the out-sourcing and look into building the American manufacturing industry again. Short term outlooks lead to long term unemployment.

  19. #46
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    That wouldn't be a problem for them AT ALL as their competition in Freetradia would be destroyed. They'd have no competition from Freetradia at all in the Tariffian market, and at the same time could compete on even terms in Freetradia. Any businessman making a pure dollars-and-cents calculation would move his company to Tariffia for the same exact reasons so many US companies moved to other countries. In a rather short period of time, they would only buy their supplies from Tariffia because all the producers in Freetradia would be out of business. That's why, for example, there's no such thing as a US-made smart phone, even though we invented the damn things.
    You totally ignored my point about the cost. It would cost manufacturers much more to produce goods in Tariffia then Freetradia. That's why protectionist countries like the Philippines for example are dirt poor and free trade countries like Hong Kong are wealthy.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    China runs the largest slave labor market on the planet. By way of that market, they produce the world's goods at rates other nations cannot match. This violates the most basic tenets of free market economies. China is by no means doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. I could be wrong, but so far as I can see China has big ambitions for global influence, if not outright dominion, at least in such terms that best guarantee protection from international threats. That last bit would be understandable, given China's more recent history of colonization by the likes of the Brits.
    For one thing I think you're exaggerating the slave labor thing a little. I'm pretty sure a bunch of slaves didn't build my computer. From what I've heard China is in many ways more free market oriented than the US. I think any free market economy can compete without "special" government aid. The problem is we don't have a free market economy any more.

    Also even if the Chinese are total slave labor camps, so what? Cheap products raise our standard of living. Suppose that for some crazy reason perfectly processed steel started oozing out of the ground somewhere in the US in unlimited quantities. Should we bury it to save our steel manufacturing? Or take advantage of it and make stuff out of it?



  22. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    You totally ignored my point about the cost. It would cost manufacturers much more to produce goods in Tariffia then Freetradia. That's why protectionist countries like the Philippines for example are dirt poor and free trade countries like Hong Kong are wealthy.
    That's plainly contradicted by the example of China which has built itself into an economic powerhouse behind a protective wall of tariffs.

    Hong Kong is just a city-state, and the way they achieved success (a very high concentration of financial industries) there can't be replicated on a larger scale. Same goes for Singapore. Neither one became prosperous by manufacturing anything, so they have nothing to protect with a tariff anyway.

  24. #50
    Granite City Works to bring back 500 jobs, restart blast furnace
    https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/ar...s-12735065.php

    Some Steel and Aluminum Makers to Restart Plant Operations Amid Tariff Plans
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ste...and-1520430223


    ETA:

    Last edited by donnay; 03-08-2018 at 01:04 PM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    For one thing I think you're exaggerating the slave labor thing a little.
    Well, my wife is in China every week and she reports to me that conditions for workers there are atrocious. Companies treat their employees like $#@!. The Beijing "authorities" are now kicking people out because in their view it is "too crowded". People who came to find work and a better life in Beijing are now doing whatever they can just to get bus money back home. That is no exaggeration, but the direct observations of a woman who is tougher and more hard working than any ten Navy Seals you care to name put together. She knows how to work in ways neither you nor I will ever know. She is no complainer, no candy-ass, so when she says things are bad, you can take it to the bank that it is so.

    Interestingly, the people with whom she does various business talk openly with her as to the evil of their government, as well as the blatant corruption. Hell, I have spoken with some of them over Facetime when she calls home. China's a mess.

    I'm pretty sure a bunch of slaves didn't build my computer.
    Would you like to bet me your home on that? They are in fact slaves. They work for subsistence wages. To ask for a raise is to put your very life at risk. To attempt to unionize (and I despise unions as many of you know) gets you a 10 minute trial and a bullet.

    From what I've heard China is in many ways more free market oriented than the US.
    Well, you keep believing it all you like. I know better from sources I trust, including Chinese people living and working there. China has been whitewashed by our administrations and a compliant press for decades. Believe you me, I was utterly surprised to learn of how bad it is there. I was more surprised to find people actually speaking out, however privately.

    Then there's the "air". Last trip, Bibi told me they were in zero-zero conditions landing in Beijing and the pilots had to make a IIIC approach as they descended into the orange-brown stink-soup they call air.

    I think any free market economy can compete without "special" government aid.
    With other free market economies, yes. China is nothing of the sort. It is a rigged-market slave-labor economy that pays an average of about $0.80/hour., up from $0.60 in 2006.

    The problem is we don't have a free market economy any more.
    Ya think?

    Also even if the Chinese are total slave labor camps, so what?
    Here you appear to show a lack of understanding of basic macroeconomics. Free market economies can prosper only when all players are the same such that no single participant holds market power over the others in distortion of those economies. China is precisely such a player. They hold disproportionate market power through the forced labor markets that pay artificially low wages at the points of guns. This is bad for any of a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that China is not the world's friend. Their hold on the global economy is not a good thing and has wholly and grossly distorted it.

    Cheap products raise our standard of living.
    That's just nutty because "cheap products" are not the only consideration in this equation; they are, in fact very much secondary. Political power through economic usurpation is the deeper issue. Cheap products are the bait. If China were ever to achieve a 95% level of global production, how long do you believe those products would remain cheap? Let us not be naive here. What do monopolists and oligopolists do when there are no significant market alternatives to their products? They jack prices ever upward to whatever limit they can manage. Can you cite any valid and plausible reason to think China would not do the same? And please do not suggest that China is making no such effort to corner the market, because the is precisely what they are doing. What manufacturing they cannot lure onto the mainland, they are buying up on foreign lands, thereby holding ownership and ultimate pricing authority in those places. And once again, the game is not primarily about profit, but political control through economic power.

    The Chinese economy, brought to you by those pinko scum in charge there, is a blight on the face of the planet. Even the common man on the street in China hates their government for the scurrilously corrupt vermin they are. So yes, China is a slave labor economy.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  26. #52
    IIIC approach”? You mean a Category IIIc approach?

    If so, that doesn’t exist for Beijing.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The Chinese economy, brought to you by those pinko scum in charge there, is a blight on the face of the planet. Even the common man on the street in China hates their government for the scurrilously corrupt vermin they are. So yes, China is a slave labor economy.
    I'd like to hear your answer about the hypothetical question I asked about free steel oozing out of the ground. Would you ban the use of it?

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    That's plainly contradicted by the example of China which has built itself into an economic powerhouse behind a protective wall of tariffs.

    Hong Kong is just a city-state, and the way they achieved success (a very high concentration of financial industries) there can't be replicated on a larger scale. Same goes for Singapore. Neither one became prosperous by manufacturing anything, so they have nothing to protect with a tariff anyway.
    According to Heritage.org:

    Top ten most free trade countries:

    Iceland
    Chile
    Mauritius
    Brunei Darussalam
    Georgia
    Hong Kong
    Liechtenstein
    Macau
    Singapore
    Switzerland

    Top ten least free trade countries:

    Korea, North
    Maldives
    Chad
    Bahamas
    Cameroon
    Equatorial Guinea
    Iran
    Djibouti
    Benin
    Sudan

    Do you see a pattern?


    Here's another example:

    Suppose Tariffia and Freetradia both want to make cars. Freetradia has all the steel. Tariffia has all the rubber. Since Freetradia has access to cheap steel and rubber it can make cars for 10K. Tariffia has no steel so it has to use carbon fiber and other various expensive or inferior substances. Tariffia can make cars for 100K. If you live in Freetradia you are going to buy the 10K cars manufactured locally, not the 100K cars manufactured in Tariffia. The manufacturer in Tariffia, even though permitted to sell to Freetradia, won't be able to sell any cars there because it costs to much to make them. On top of that Tariffia won't even be able to sell many cars to their own citizens because they're TOO EXPENSIVE!

    What you're not understanding is that the lower cost of manufacturing is more important than having access to more markets.
    Last edited by Madison320; 03-08-2018 at 03:38 PM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    According to Heritage.org:
    Individual health care insurance mandate has roots two decades long - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ered-past.html

    The mandate, requiring every American to purchase health insurance, appeared in a 1989 published proposal by Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation called "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans," which included a provision to "mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance."

  30. #56
    Well according to some, China is much freer.

    China Is Freer Than the US
    By Paul Craig Roberts

    April 21, 2012

    Americans, the British, and Western Europeans are accustomed to thinking of themselves as the representatives of freedom, democracy, and morality in the world. The West passes judgment on the rest of the world as if the West is God and the rest of the world are barbarians in need of chastisement, invasion, and occupation. As readers know, from time to time I raise questions about the validity of the West’s extreme hubris. (See for example, the following articles: Washington’s Insouciance Has No Rival and Is Western Democracy Real or a Facade?)

    China is often a country about which Washington’s moralists get on their high horse. However, China’s “authoritarian” government is actually more responsive to its people than America’s “elected democratic” government. Moreover, however incomplete on paper the civil liberties of China’s people, the Chinese government has not declared that it can violate with impunity whatever rights Chinese citizens have. And it is not China that is running torture prisons all over the globe.

    For some time I have had in mind a realistic comparison of the two countries instead of the standard propagandistic comparison, but Ron Unz has beat me to the task (see, China’s Rise, America’s Fall and Chinese Melamine and American Vioxx: A Comparison). Unz provides a chance for an education. Don’t miss it.

    Unz has done an excellent job. Moreover, he cleverly understates the case for China and overstates the case for America so as not to unduly arouse the flag-wavers. Nevertheless, the conclusion is clear: The Chinese are less threatened by their “extractive elites” than Americans are by their counterparts.

    Moreover, it is America’s, not China’s, extractive elites who are bombing, occupying, and droning other countries. As the bumper sticker says, “Be nice to America or we will bring democracy to your country.”

    As for economic management, there is no comparison. Unz reports that during the past three decades China has achieved the most rapid rate of economic development in human history. Moreover, most of the new income has flowed into the pockets of Chinese workers, not to the one percent. While American real median incomes have been stagnant for decades, incomes for Chinese workers have doubled every decade for three decades. A recent World Bank report attributes more than 100 percent of the drop in global poverty rates to China’s rise.

    In the last decade China’s industrial output quadrupled. China now produces more automobiles than America and Japan combined and accounted for 85 percent of the increase in the world’s production of cars in the past decade.

    In 1978 the American economy was 15 times larger than China’s. In the next few years China’s GDP is expected to exceed that of the US.

    This is heady stuff providing astonishing details of how poorly Americans are served by their elites.

    America has failed, because political elites represent only the powerful special interests that write the country’s laws in exchange for funding the political campaigns of “lawmakers.” To divert attention from their failures, American elites point fingers at external scapegoats. China, for example, is accused of manipulating its currency. As Unz says, the scapegoating is political theater designed for the ignorant and gullible.

    America’s economists, or most of them, have so prostituted themselves that propaganda has become wisdom. Most Americans believe that if China would simply let the value of its currency rise more rapidly relative to the dollar, America’s economic woes would be at an end. It is beyond belief that any economist could think that Americans with stagnant and declining incomes would be made better off by a sharp rise in the prices of goods manufactured in China on which Americans are dependent, or that the US dollar’s role as reserve currency, the main source of American power, could survive such a manifestation of Chinese economic superiority.

    Americans associate lawlessness with unaccountable governments and view China’s government as unaccountable. However, Unz points out that it is the Bush/Obama Regime that has declared itself to be unaccountable to both US and international law.

    The demise of the War Powers Act and the Geneva Conventions, and the asserted power of the executive to imprison without trial or charges or to assassinate any American whom the executive thinks might be a “national-security threat” are indicative of a total police state masquerading as an accountable democracy. In America six-year old little girls who misbehave in school are handcuffed, jailed, and charged with felonies. (see, 10 Disgusting Examples of Very Young School Children Being Arrested, Handcuffed and Brutalized By Police) Not even Hitler and Stalin went this far.

    Americans have lost control of the government, and governments that are not controlled by the people are not democracies. In America today, Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, and the entire social safety net are threatened by the vociferous desire for war profits by armament plutocrats and by financial institutions determined that ordinary citizens bear the cost of the banksters incompetence and fraud.

    Unz’s comparison of how the Chinese media and government handled the melamine or infant formula scandal and how the American media and government handled Merck’s Vioxx scandal is especially damning. It was China’s controlled media and unaccountable government that punished the infant formula wrongdoers, while America’s free press and accountable government allowed Merck to walk.

    Unz’s conclusion is that it is in America, not China, where life is regarded as cheap.

    Ron Unz is an American hero, and a very courageous one. As George Orwell said, “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

    It is an even more courageous act when no one wants to hear the truth. As Frantz Fanon said, “Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief.”

    Or as it is explained to Neo in the film, “The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.”

    Most of the people I know personally are not willing to be unplugged. I assume my readers are, so seize the opportunity to be further unplugged and read Ron Unz’s comparison of America and China.

    Then do what you can to unplug others.
    There is no spoon.



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Well according to some, China is much freer.
    Not according to anybody who has ever been to China.

  33. #58
    And speaking of slavery:

    (US) Mass Incarceration: The Whole Pie 2016

    Every year, 636,000 people walk out of prison gates, but people go to jail over 11 million times each year. Jail churn is particularly high because most people in jails have not been convicted. Some have just been arrested and will make bail in the next few hours or days, and others are too poor to make bail and must remain behind bars until their trial. Only a small number (195,000) have been convicted, generally serving misdemeanors sentences under a year.
    This “whole pie” methodology also exposes some disturbing facts about the youth entrapped in our juvenile justice system: Too many are there for a “most serious offense” that is not even a crime. For example, there are almost 7,000 youth behind bars for “technical violations” of the requirements of their probation, rather than for a new offense. Further, 600 youth are behind bars for “status” offenses, which are “behaviors that are not law violations for adults, such as running away, truancy, and incorrigibility.”
    https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html
    There is no spoon.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    And speaking of slavery:

    (US) Mass Incarceration: The Whole Pie 2016





    https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html
    China is a prison.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    China is a prison.
    China is a notch above NK. They also know how to convince yankees to do business with them.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 89
    Last Post: 10-28-2020, 07:12 PM
  2. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02-16-2018, 12:41 PM
  3. Trump Notches Another Win On Trade As China Slashes Tariffs
    By Swordsmyth in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-24-2017, 09:14 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-03-2017, 03:06 PM
  5. China Hikes Up Tariffs on American-Made Cars
    By showpan in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 12-22-2011, 09:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •