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Thread: Are Retailers Breaking the Law?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Federal law sets the minimum age to buy a long gun at 18, but this doesn't mean the seller must sell to an 18 year old. It just means he can't sell to someone under 18.
    The courts will make you sell any other product to any other eligible person, Bakers are having to resort to 1stA claims over wedding cakes, the rules must be the same for any product one way or the other, they can choose who they sell to when the rest of us get to.
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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    No it means that the person is eligible to purchase, Refusing the purchase is discrimination based on age. and also violation of that persons 2nd amendment right. It is an infringement.
    The Second Amendment restricts the government, not a private citizen or company. If you think there's a federal statute prohibiting age discrimination in connection with the sale of firearms (or any other item, for that matter) by all means cite it. You'll find there aren't any.

    As pointed out in the link I posted (which you should read), some state laws may ban age discrimination in connection with the sale of guns, which simply means Dick's and others will need to have different policies for different states.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    The 2nd Amendment applies to Congress (lol).

    You don't become an arm of Congress because you are required to apply for a license to transact in something.
    The right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutionally protected right.. FACT

    Federal Firearms License Is Federal Government license. Fact
    Federal Government sets age for firearm ownership. Fact

    Stores refusing sales is discrimination. (see Gay Cakes)

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infringe

    When a retailer partners with the Federal Government it is no longer has any right to refuse.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #34
    I think there is a strong argument that a lawsuit could be brought, Pete. I think it should be initiated by a fine upstanding 20 yr. old Marine with some combat duty under his belt. Just walk into the store in dress blues and offer to purchase a semi-automatic rifle. Perhaps with his father standing next to him also offering to purchase one to show the discrimination inherent. Fully videoed and documented.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The courts will make you sell any other product to any other eligible person, Bakers are having to resort to 1stA claims over wedding cakes, the rules must be the same for any product one way or the other, they can choose who they sell to when the rest of us get to.
    That's because there's a specific statute or ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of things like race, gender, sexual orientation, or national origin. But there's no law that says provisions like these must also include age as a type of protected class. The plain fact is that federal civil rights statutes don't prohibit age discrimination except in connection with employment.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The Second Amendment restricts the government, not a private citizen or company.
    FFL Dealers are NOT private companies.

    They are an arm of Government via License.. They are a Government Agent when they fill out forms.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Agreed on all accounts, but if a baker has to make gay cakes on demand, then retailers should have to sell legal goods to people of any age.
    I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure the "two wrongs make a right" is the way to go.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure the "two wrongs make a right" is the way to go.
    When dealing with laws it is sometimes required to get enough people to agree to repeal the law instead of supporting it because it doesn't affect them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure the "two wrongs make a right" is the way to go.
    But it goes a long way in spotlighting the Hypocrisy.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Stores that barely even sell firearms are jumping on the bandwagon (Kroger). And Wal-Mart too. Despicable.
    I think walmart actually sells quite a few weapons here , but the leading seller is the farm store chain , Rural King . I have an independent bait & tackle just a few miles down the road from me so I consider myself fortunate .



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    FFL Dealers are NOT private companies.

    They are an arm of Government via License.. They are a Government Agent when they fill out forms.
    I think you are probably right about that . Govt agents .

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When dealing with laws it is sometimes required to get enough people to agree to repeal the law instead of supporting it because it doesn't affect them.
    Like laws against eating ice cream while riding a donkey backwards down Main Street on any given Sunday? Its okay to do on a Monday tho, so just sayin...
    1776 > 1984

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  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    []
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    []
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    []


    Hunh. All three of them in one thread.










    +








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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
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    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
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    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




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  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Federal law sets the minimum age to buy a long gun at 18, but this doesn't mean the seller must sell to an 18 year old. It just means he can't sell to someone under 18.
    Holy crap. Even Sonny Tufts decided to chime in.

  18. #45
    Is it illegal? Not to my knowledge.

    Should it be illegal? Absolutely not.

    If you don't like the policies of a company, don't do business with it.

    Simple

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Like laws against eating ice cream while riding a donkey backwards down Main Street on any given Sunday? Its okay to do on a Monday tho, so just sayin...
    The convoluted rats nest of Gun Laws can and will PHUCK you..

    I Know,, it was my 4th Felony.

    I have learned a lot since then,, much of it here. Though it was this issue that brought me here.

    and if I am all that dangerous ,,, why am I not sitting here with a suppressed full auto weapon.
    I am certainly capable of building several types from common materials. I am mechanically proficient,, and familiar with a wide range of tools.

    what law prevents me?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Is it illegal? Not to my knowledge.

    Should it be illegal? Absolutely not.

    If you don't like the policies of a company, don't do business with it.

    Simple
    Not simple.. it is not the Company but the Federal Firearm License holder..
    The FFL is a Government Agent...legally and lawfully.

    how does the government agent refuse to sell to a legal adult of legal age??

    The Government agent should not have that discretion any more that he would choosing to sell to a prohibited person.

    Or are you arguing that arbitrary standards should apply?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Not simple.. it is not the Company but the Federal Firearm License holder..
    The FFL is a Government Agent...legally and lawfully.

    how does the government agent refuse to sell to a legal adult of legal age??

    The Government agent should not have that discretion any more that he would choosing to sell to a prohibited person.

    Or are you arguing that arbitrary standards should apply?
    If you're asking whether these companies are violating the law, I think Sonny Tufts already covered that. As for the moral question (the important question), of whether they ought to be allowed to refuse to serve whoever they want, of course they should, for reasons which shouldn't need explaining at Ron Paul Forums; and that the state forces them to obtain a special license to conduct their business doesn't change that one iota. If the state declares that apple sellers have to obtain a special federal apple selling license, would it follow that apple sellers should be stripped of their freedom of contract? I think not.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If you're asking whether these companies are violating the law, I think Sonny Tufts already covered that.
    Quote of the month and it is only the second.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If you're asking whether these companies are violating the law, I think Sonny Tufts already covered that. As for the moral question (the important question), of whether they ought to be allowed to refuse to serve whoever they want, of course they should, for reasons which shouldn't need explaining at Ron Paul Forums; and that the state forces them to obtain a special license to conduct their business doesn't change that one iota. If the state declares that apple sellers have to obtain a special federal apple selling license, would it follow that apple sellers should be stripped of their freedom of contract? I think not.
    In a Free Market I would heartily agree.

    We are not talking about some fantasy land,,The real world reality is that Government and sales are at an ugly nexus.

    I am talking about LAW and not philosophy.
    Does an AGENT of the Government have the arbitrary choice? And the FFL Holder is an Agent of Government..

    in a proper world there would be no government involvement and it would be a simple business transaction.
    But that is not a reality.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #51
    Are Retailers Breaking the Law?
    My thoughts as well. Technically they probably are. But discrimination laws aren't enforced equally, citizens under 21 are not a protected group.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  26. #52
    Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion.
    Read more at https://www.business2community.com/t...nation-0766551
    Wah wahh... (sad trombone)
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    My thoughts as well. Technically they probably are. But discrimination laws aren't enforced equally, citizens under 21 are not a protected group.
    Well It might be a point to raise..

    18 is the age to vote and to enlist,, For LAWful purpose an adult.
    Federal says that a legal adult can buy long guns.

    The retailer ceases to be a private business and becomes a government agent.. FFL or they can't sell guns..

    only FFL AGENTS,,, Federal Agents can sell guns,,,

    do you see where this goes? Can Federal agents refuse the sale that meets the Legal requirements?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Agreed on all accounts, but if a baker has to make gay cakes on demand, then retailers should have to sell legal goods to people of any age.
    Was just coming in here to say that.

    Especially, when, as Pete is rightly pointing out, you are a de facto agent of government and cannot discriminate, by law.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 03-03-2018 at 01:09 AM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    My thoughts as well. Technically they probably are. But discrimination laws aren't enforced equally, citizens under 21 are not a protected group.
    Why do you have to be in a minority group in order to have protection of the courts against discrimination?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Well It might be a point to raise..

    18 is the age to vote and to enlist,, For LAWful purpose an adult.
    Federal says that a legal adult can buy long guns.

    The retailer ceases to be a private business and becomes a government agent.. FFL or they can't sell guns..

    only FFL AGENTS,,, Federal Agents can sell guns,,,

    do you see where this goes? Can Federal agents refuse the sale that meets the Legal requirements?
    Wonder how long it will take them to chew on that.



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  32. #57
    Now, that said, I like that this is happening.

    It will re-vitalize the small, independent gun shops that used to be one of the largest, in numbers, of small businesses in the country.

    Something as critical as the supply of guns and ammo should never been centralized by one or two giant mega-chain stores, for the very reason we are seeing right now.

    Neither should anything else, for that matter.

    Which is why I have been railing against Wal Marx all these years.

  33. #58
    All NFA rules apply.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Now, that said, I like that this is happening.

    It will re-vitalize the small, independent gun shops that used to be one of the largest, in numbers, of small businesses in the country.

    Something as critical as the supply of guns and ammo should never been centralized by one or two giant mega-chain stores, for the very reason we are seeing right now.

    Neither should anything else, for that matter.

    Which is why I have been railing against Wal Marx all these years.
    You should have watched the latest X-Files this week. The discontent is there. It was brutal.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Now, that said, I like that this is happening.
    as an interested yet detached observer,, it could be good.

    I am certainly hoping some Gun Rights Lawyers could spin this into at least blowback against stupid Boycotters.

    I would love to see it Blow up into pieces and those pieces bite everyone in the ass.
    Need something to swing the pendulum.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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