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Thread: Is Rand a true libertarian?

  1. #1

    Is Rand a true libertarian?

    I ask because he has some more traditional/establishment views than his dad, and calls himself a libertarian-republican. He is not exactly a pro-weed advocate.

    But I wonder if he is doing all of this for the long game and if he ever gets in power, libertarian-land here we come...



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Van Dyke
    Last night CNN International CNN gave me ten minutes live to talk about Bernie Sanders who has been scantily covered by them in favor of the Donald J. Trump circus. It was pre-empted completely to cover another outburst by Trump. This pandering to the scandal hungry public is a total lack of responsible journalism. I accuse CNN of extreme bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    I ask because he has some more traditional/establishment views than his dad, and calls himself a libertarian-republican. He is not exactly a pro-weed advocate.

    But I wonder if he is doing all of this for the long game and if he ever gets in power, libertarian-land here we come...
    libertarian <> pro-weed advocate.

  5. #4
    A true libertarian is a person who thinks every other libertarian is not a libertarian. A true libertarian not only thinks the rest of society is morally bankrupt, but holds the greatest contempt for the minor deviations of people who call themselves libertarian. Liberty would of course be very popular if those non-true libertarians weren't watering down the message of true liberty.

    So, not a true libertarian. And you made a very astute observation that he doesn't advocate on behalf of the most important libertarian issue- selling legal weed.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    So, not a true libertarian. And you made a very astute observation that he doesn't advocate on behalf of the most important libertarian issue- selling legal weed.
    Note he didn't even say that. He said, "He is not exactly a pro-weed advocate." one can be a libertarian and be fine with people selling or making voluntary transactions regarding weed and not be "pro-weed". But what do I know; I'm not even a Libertarian, those guys are arseholes. Randal doesn't even really claim the crown as Libertarian as the term has too much baggage.

  7. #6
    So there is a significant deviation from Ron to Rand on the overall platform I guess.

  8. #7
    Ron...Rand........................................ ....................99% of politicians

    Do you consider that 'significant'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Van Dyke
    Last night CNN International CNN gave me ten minutes live to talk about Bernie Sanders who has been scantily covered by them in favor of the Donald J. Trump circus. It was pre-empted completely to cover another outburst by Trump. This pandering to the scandal hungry public is a total lack of responsible journalism. I accuse CNN of extreme bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Ron...Rand........................................ ....................99% of politicians
    Do you consider that 'significant'?
    It seems like he is one of those "libertarians" that is mad that Randal isn't running around telling everybody to smoke pot everyday. And ignoring the fact that Ron wasn't exactly "pro-weed" either.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Van Dyke
    Last night CNN International CNN gave me ten minutes live to talk about Bernie Sanders who has been scantily covered by them in favor of the Donald J. Trump circus. It was pre-empted completely to cover another outburst by Trump. This pandering to the scandal hungry public is a total lack of responsible journalism. I accuse CNN of extreme bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    A true libertarian is a person who thinks every other libertarian is not a libertarian. A true libertarian not only thinks the rest of society is morally bankrupt, but holds the greatest contempt for the minor deviations of people who call themselves libertarian. Liberty would of course be very popular if those non-true libertarians weren't watering down the message of true liberty.

    So, not a true libertarian. And you made a very astute observation that he doesn't advocate on behalf of the most important libertarian issue- selling legal weed.
    A true libertarian is capable of drawing distinctions. Both Bill Maher and Glenn Beck self-identify as libertarians.
    How about this as a general axiom: expecting other people to accept you as something just because you claim to be it makes you a leftist.
    I'm not going to go as far as making claims about Rand on his subforum, but if leftists believe we should treat men like women just because they believe they are... well, there's a group of people who accept that as logical, and a group that doesn't.

    A true libertarian doesn't really care about personal use of weed in the grand scheme of things, but is totally capable of using weed as a litmus test for one's devotion to liberty principles.

    A true libertarian also isn't going to make snap judgments about people based strictly on their opinion of weed, and most importantly, isn't going to turn a blind eye to the staggering blow to actual liberty that has happened as a result of people like Krugminator being fundamentally OK with lives being ruined by the millions because of the drug war.

    Or if not being fundamentally OK with it, considering it somehow less important than issues which don't negatively affect millions of people.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    to actual liberty that has happened as a result of people like Krugminator being fundamentally OK with lives being ruined by the millions because of the drug war.

    Or if not being fundamentally OK with it, considering it somehow less important than issues which don't negatively affect millions of people.

    Ummm..... I would rate drug legalization near the top of issues I consider important and have said as such. I always call it the single most immoral thing the government does. I have no idea what your point is or what you are referring to.

  14. #12
    IMO, ? in OP is misguided. The question is, does Rand represent your interests/values sufficiently to merit your support? You aren't likely to find any politician anywhere that represents you perfectly, unless you are uber rich and own their soul with the strongest puppet strings.

    Rand has had to make compromises. He's been more flexible in this regard than his father was. I don't hold it against him. He's been a good advocate for liberty IMO. He has earned my support. We need more like minded people in Congress to move the needle(s) on liberty issues.

    Don't expect Rand or any single person to do all the heavy lifting for you. $.02
    I compiled a "brief" history of events since October 2008 that are defining the global currency war and the role that gold is playing:

    Tin Foil Hats, Economic Reality and the Total Perspective Vortex

    Also, have you contacted your Congressional Rep and asked them co-sponsor Ron Paul's Rep. Paul Broun Jr.'s HR 1098 77: Free Competition in Currencies Act?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    I ask because he has some more traditional/establishment views than his dad, and calls himself a libertarian-republican. He is not exactly a pro-weed advocate.

    But I wonder if he is doing all of this for the long game and if he ever gets in power, libertarian-land here we come...
    he said he was for legalization of marijuana in his recent interview with Colbert.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    I ask because he has some more traditional/establishment views than his dad, and calls himself a libertarian-republican. He is not exactly a pro-weed advocate.

    But I wonder if he is doing all of this for the long game and if he ever gets in power, libertarian-land here we come...
    Yep its all a long con because liberty isn't popular

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    So there is a significant deviation from Ron to Rand on the overall platform I guess.
    Do you want to put people in jail for growing a plant in their backyard?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #16
    Oh, nm, I get it.. you WANT legal weed and you actually think Rand is going to stand in the way of that??

    Lol.. come on.. Rand has been one of the few people pushing for the Federal Govt. to allow banks to serve customers who have cannabis businesses, what do you think??
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  20. #17
    He's a Libertarian who pretends to be a Republican. Just like Amash and Massie. 3rd party and Independent candidates have virtually no shot of winning national contests. So co-opting the Republican label is their way of being to serve in Washington. Rand sometimes peforms lip-service for the Republican party by endorsing certain candidates (Trump, McConnell, etc) but lip-service is pretty much all it is.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Ummm..... I would rate drug legalization near the top of issues I consider important and have said as such. I always call it the single most immoral thing the government does. I have no idea what your point is or what you are referring to.
    I did read your post three times and cannot put an interpretation on it where you were not being sarcastic.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by revgen View Post
    He's a Libertarian who pretends to be a Republican.
    Saying "Just tell me that you will have some government bureaucrats sign some cursory paperwork before you murder citizens on US soil with drones and I'll be ok with it" for 17 hours is not really a libertarian position.
    At least, it's not a libertarian position that this libertarian wants to be associated with.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I did read your post three times and cannot put an interpretation on it where you were not being sarcastic.
    I was being sarcastic and mocking. The original poster doesn't care about drug legalization. They care about marijuana legalization. Marijuana is the least important drug to legalize and the people who make that a pet issue do it almost exclusively for lifestyle reasons. There is a reason you never hear cocaine or crystal meth legalization singled out. How many times in 2008 or 2012 did Ron Paul bring up marijuana legalization in speeches? Lifestyle libertarianism is something Ron Paul actively shunned.

    Drug legalization is near the top of the things I care about. I have never once framed it in terms of marijuana legalization. For example, from a thread on Roy Moore that had no mention of the drug war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    The issues I care about in order of importance.

    1. Government spending
    2. The drug war
    3. Cutting taxes
    4. Monetary policy
    5. Health care policy
    6. Regulations
    7. Civil liberties
    8. Foreign Policy

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Saying "Just tell me that you will have some government bureaucrats sign some cursory paperwork before you murder citizens on US soil with drones and I'll be ok with it" for 17 hours is not really a libertarian position.
    At least, it's not a libertarian position that this libertarian wants to be associated with.
    You don't think bringing national attention to the NDAA in order to promote a more non-interventionist foreign policy is libertarian?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    It seems like he is one of those "libertarians" that is mad that Randal isn't running around telling everybody to smoke pot everyday. And ignoring the fact that Ron wasn't exactly "pro-weed" either.
    That is absolutely not true. I just cited one example. I happen to love Rand, but he doesn't seem to me to hold the same values as close as his dad does. Maybe I'm wrong, I am new to this stuff. I was just wondering if Rand is playing the Republican party to do what he needs to do to get in power, and then boom, real libertarianism at the federal level gets unleashed.

  26. #23
    One other thing. I can't recall the episode, but on the liberty report one day Daniel McAdams was bashing a position Rand supported (or maybe the bashing was on Twitter). All I'm wondering here is if Rand is not as close on issues as his father was, that's all. Regardless, he has my full support.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    That is absolutely not true. I just cited one example. I happen to love Rand, but he doesn't seem to me to hold the same values as close as his dad does. Maybe I'm wrong, I am new to this stuff. I was just wondering if Rand is playing the Republican party to do what he needs to do to get in power, and then boom, real libertarianism at the federal level gets unleashed.
    That last part sounds good.

    But in any case, yes, he is certainly trying to steer a more mainstream line than his father, in hopes that he will be more influential. The way his father was treated in the House was more like 'that curiosity in the corner'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Van Dyke
    Last night CNN International CNN gave me ten minutes live to talk about Bernie Sanders who has been scantily covered by them in favor of the Donald J. Trump circus. It was pre-empted completely to cover another outburst by Trump. This pandering to the scandal hungry public is a total lack of responsible journalism. I accuse CNN of extreme bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron is wrong...



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I was being sarcastic and mocking. The original poster doesn't care about drug legalization.
    Gotcha. Sorry for chucking that mud pie.

    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You don't think bringing national attention to the NDAA in order to promote a more non-interventionist foreign policy is libertarian?
    Well I'm honestly not trying to steer the conversation in this direction, but...
    I think having a foreign policy, at all, is a fundamentally anti-libertarian stance.
    I'm not being purist or contrarian. I'm merely looking at this through the lens of what actually has happened as a result of having one for the last 241 years. And I'm hard pressed to find something that is unequivocally libertarian.

    I mean, hell, even the NDAA isn't strictly constitutional.
    The clear original purpose of the 2-year funds authorization was to make the army funding dry up and therefore force the army to disband and go home.
    I think the founders made it abundantly clear (at least to begin with) that they weren't fans of professional standing armies.

    So my answer is no, not really. He can stand with the Repugnicans and talk a really good game about what Repugnicans ought to be doing, and he can be the only guy in the Repugnican party saying these things and bully for him. But let's take a step back and recognize that he could be saying and doing things in a way that, to re-use my earlier statement, didn't basically say he'd be A-OK with murdering US citizens on US soil with drones as long as we fill out the right paperwork.

    One thing that fundamentally makes a libertarian is looking at that situation and thinking "You know I don't give a flying $#@! what the system was built to do, let's examine what it's ACTUALLY DOING, and if we need to scrap this $#@! and start over to keep that from happening, I won't lose any sleep over losing it".
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    US citizens on US soil with drones as long as we fill out the right paperwork.
    That's not what he was saying at all in his fillabuster, thats the MSM narrative that they created after they had him on a bunch of fake news and asked him the same question 80 different ways. That's the fake news narrative, no one that watched that fillabuster and listened to what Rand Paul was saying came away with that but the people who watched the fake news and listened to their narrative did. Then a bunch of liberals parroted it on the internet.

  31. #27
    lol these threads suck
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    Please donate what you can : http://brettfairchild.com/donate/

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    Don't pay the media to attack Rand
    Every time you click on the attack articles, you are literally paying them to attack Rand or other liberty officials.

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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    That's not what he was saying at all in his fillabuster, thats the MSM narrative that they created after they had him on a bunch of fake news and asked him the same question 80 different ways. That's the fake news narrative, no one that watched that fillabuster and listened to what Rand Paul was saying came away with that but the people who watched the fake news and listened to their narrative did. Then a bunch of liberals parroted it on the internet.
    Can you watch that video somewhere btw? I'd love to see it for myself. I have to admit, I was fooled by the fake news media too this time.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GroverTep View Post
    Can you watch that video somewhere btw? I'd love to see it for myself. I have to admit, I was fooled by the fake news media too this time.

  34. #30
    Rand is most definitely in favor of drug legalization; that he focuses on decriminalization, removing the issue to the states, or other more modest reforms is obviously a strategic decision. There may be a few minor issues where Rand deviates slightly from libertarianism (though nothing comes to mind), but he's as pure a libertarian you're ever going to find in politics, and absolutely solid on the important issues (spending, regulation, monetary policy, the bill of rights, foreign policy). If you can't bring yourself to support him, you might as well find another hobby and stop following politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Ron...Rand........................................ ....................99% of politicians
    That about covers it.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 03-03-2018 at 01:47 PM.

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