Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 41

Thread: Debt On Track To Destroy The American Middle Class

  1. #1

    Debt On Track To Destroy The American Middle Class

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...n-middle-class

    Via GoldTelegraph.com,

    Economists report the household debt to be at its highest in decades. Yet, at the same time, we are being told that the economy is doing great. Does anyone see a serious contradiction?



    n fact, the current economy only favors the wealthy owing to their flourishing financial assets such as stocks and bonds. Owing to the lack of real assets such as property and commodities, the middle and lower classes are becoming overwhelmed due to the serious consequences of the spending/debt cycle.

    American consumers have a collective outstanding household debt of about $13.15 trillion of which nearly $1 trillion is the credit card debt alone, households are truly on a debt binge. These figures should be a wake-up call to all the Americans. The convulsive household debt has surpassed the bubble of 2008 and is still escalating. The economy may not be doing so great, after all.

    Compared to 2008, the automobile credit balances have increased to $367 billion whereas the outstanding student loans are around $671 billion. Moreover, 67 percent of household debts belong to consumer mortgages. In 2016, twenty-five percent of all the Americans purchased a new or used vehicle and two-thirds of them are repaying through high-interest, long-term loans.

    In fact, the consumer debt has exceeded their income for majority of the Americans.

    Consumers have become accustomed using easy credit to maintain a lifestyle unaffordable for them otherwise. If this trend continues, and facts indicate that it will, we will be facing a monumental credit crisis in the near future.

    A huge portion of credit card debt is the interest. Credit cards are a convenience and consumers readily pay for the privilege. However, it is necessary for consumers to know how credit card interest actually works.

    Take the Smiths, a typical family with $2,000 in credit card debt. The Smiths donít have a considerable cash reserve and only make a minimum monthly payment of $60.00 at 20 percent interest. The monthly payment against the principal is $26.67 while the interest amount is $33.33. With this payment schedule, the Smiths will pay $4,240 over a period of 15 years.

    Mortgages are also a part of the household debt. While outstanding mortgages havenít reached the bubble of 2008, they have still increased indicating the possibility of another housing crisis in the not-too-distant future. Moreover, with the rising interest rates, the consumer credit may default. Some families rely on credit cards to meet the basic needs. This is the opposite of economic growth.

    ...
    Full article and references for key points on links at top.

    ---

    Propaganda Doublespeak: Debt is Wealth, just like War is Peace, and Health is Sickness.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    The american middle class is dead . Not coming back . One day the 99 percent will all be lazy , poor and ignorant , which is the proven result of socialism and communism .

  4. #3
    Middle Class is kind of a historical anomaly (and difficult to define and measure exactly). In this country, it rose following WWII when the US was about the only economic power standing and was needed to help rebuild much of the world (financed in part though the Marshal Plan). There was middle class before that, but it was a much smaller slice of society. It did get a start during the Industrial Revolution of the late 1800's but didn't really effect large numbers until after WWII after the Great Depression wiped out a lot of them.

    The historic roots of the middle class

    America didn't always have a middle class.

    In the late 1700s and early 1800s, the foundling nation had wealthy landowners, but everyone else was pretty close together, both physically and economically, said historian Stuart Blumin.

    Mr. Blumin, a retired history professor at Cornell University and author of the 1989 book "The Emergence of the Middle Class," said the more egalitarian society of the first 50 years of the United States had a lot to do with how goods were created.

    Most products were made by artisans who often had apprentices living in their households, and they both lived within a short distance of their wealthier customers.

    Then, in the 1820s, all that began to change.

    Goods such as textiles and shoes began to be produced in "manufactories," and eventually those laborers started living next to each other, forming the first working-class neighborhoods.

    At the new factories, some employees were hired to oversee the others or to work in the office. Then came the separation of where products were made and where they were sold, which led to an explosion of retail stores in cities around the nation throughout the 1800s.

    As these stores evolved, they became a magnet for women shoppers, he said, and so "now, what is the owner wearing? Not a leather apron as he once would have, but a suit. And who else is there? Wage-earning clerks."

    As time went on, these "white-collar workers" and entrepreneurs began to make more money than manufacturing employees, which allowed them to settle in better neighborhoods of their own.

    As white-collar and working-class employees began to separate geographically, they also went to different churches, social clubs and taverns. Even the independent baseball clubs that became a mania in the late 1800s were split by class, he said.

    Victorian middle-class homes became the domain of women, who entertained guests in the parlor, educated and raised the children and governed the family's social life.

    "This was often hard on the men of that era," he said, "because women were starting to make them behave themselves, to stop eating peas with their knives and telling lewd stories and spitting tobacco juice on the new Brussels carpet."

    As America entered the 20th century, the story of the middle class became more complex, Mr. Blumin said.

    The growth of labor unions moved some blue-collar workers up the income ladder toward middle-class lifestyles, while the development of department stores and other large offices led to a "white-collar proletariat."

    "They may have been salary earners," Mr. Blumin said, "but their pay was very low, their work was tedious, they were in large organizations."

    These new white collar masses "had very little chance for promotion or entrepreneurship," he said, "and so more and more, in insurance and shipping and banking companies, as office work expanded and the typewriter prevailed, women become more and more pervasive and they were paid less."

    As the 20th century wore on, two major events reshaped the middle class -- the Great Depression, which plunged millions into poverty, and World War II, which sent millions of men overseas and ushered even more women into the workforce.

    Some economists trace the modern middle class to critical government decisions that were made as the nation emerged from the world war.

    One was the G.I. Bill, which raised the educational level of millions of veterans at bargain rates. Mr. Blumin, who wrote a book about that program, said many Americans don't realize that the bill helped more veterans with non-college training than it did with university education`.

    "About 2.2 million people went to college under the G.I. Bill, but 5.6 million had sub-college training," he said. "And a lot of those classes were in the emerging technical jobs in society, like auto repair or TV and radio repair."

    The other major federal initiative was subsidy programs to help returning veterans become homeowners. The Federal Housing Administration, which had been set up in the middle of the Depression, helped spur the construction of thousands of new suburban houses with its mortgage insurance programs, and those housing developments were increasingly linked to major cities by the fast-growing Interstate Highway System.

    These policies helped build a strong middle class, but one other major development -- easier credit for middle-income Americans over the past 40 years -- has had mixed blessings.

    On one hand, it has allowed people to get mortgages and make major consumer purchases more easily. On the other hand, it has created serious debt problems for millions of Americans and played a critical role in the recent housing collapse.


    Sylvia Allegretto, a research economist at the University of California at Berkeley, said the expansion of credit has created two middle classes.

    "I've always lived below my means," said Ms. Allegretto, who grew up in Western Pennsylvania as the daughter of a union painter and a factory worker, "but I have friends who always have the latest gadgets and cars, which is why we collectively have so much debt, right?

    "And when I went to college, there also weren't credit card companies sitting out there waiting to hand you a free credit card the minute you walked in the door. There is a different culture out there today."


    The Berkeley economist also worries that many of today's younger middle-class families do not have the same sense of social cohesion and shared values that their parents and grandparents had.

    "I think that those older generations had more of a sense of community as Americans, both a sense of the victory after the war and coming out of the Depression.

    "After the Depression, we had the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation that prevented runs on the banks, we had unemployment insurance -- and people knew these things were going to help them, because they had just come out of the Depression where they didn't have those things."
    http://www.post-gazette.com/local/re...s/201111200308
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Middle Class is kind of a historical anomaly (and difficult to define and measure exactly). In this country, it rose following WWII when the US was about the only economic power standing and was needed to help rebuild much of the world (financed in part though the Marshal Plan). There was middle class before that, but it was a much smaller slice of society. It did get a start during the Industrial Revolution of the late 1800's but didn't really effect large numbers until after WWII after the Great Depression wiped out a lot of them.



    http://www.post-gazette.com/local/re...s/201111200308
    The middle class has existed for centuries. One need only read Pride and Prejudice to see that any claims of the middle class being a recent innovation are ridiculous. And if you don't like chick books, read some Dickens. The middle class is no innovation of World War II. That's just silly.

    Which makes one wonder why someone would suddenly be trying to rewrite this little aspect of history. Could it be that those who are systematically robbing the middle class want the middle class to believe that they are some sort of cyclical phenomenon, and they have no right to believe their whole way of life should not dry up and blow away of natural causes? And of all the players who are destroying the middle class, is there any one which is more key and more active than Zippy's employer, the Federal Reserve?

    Well. No wonder we find this tripe unceremoniously dumped on this page.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  6. #5
    It should be blatantly plainly obvious to everyone that Zippy supports the elimination of the Middle Class by distorting history to only be what he tells you it is. There is no Middle Class, never has been, so whats the big deal, everything is awesome!
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    It should be blatantly plainly obvious to everyone that Zippy supports the elimination of the Middle Class by distorting history to only be what he tells you it is. There is no Middle Class, never has been, so whats the big deal, everything is awesome!
    No, I don't support getting rid of it. I am part of it.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    No, I don't support getting rid of it. I am part of it.
    Whats left of it you mean...

    Seriously, if Freedom is the goal of Liberty minded people, one of the key components that is achieved by Liberty is Economic Freedom. This is why we had the largest middle class in history. Real Freedom is rare throughout history. And we can not achieve Real Freedom by being Debt Slaves to those who print money.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    No, I don't support getting rid of it. I am part of it.
    And of course, every colony and every tyranny ever has had a middle class, mostly comprised of collaborators.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Middle Class is kind of a historical anomaly (and difficult to define and measure exactly).
    I bought a copy of Economic Facts and Fallacies by Thomas Sowell. Here is his push back to your talk of income inequality and a shrinking middle class.

    1. The value of health benefits (401k match and health insurance) has increased fairly dramatically as a share of income. The compensation figures that show stagnation leave that out. Plus that doesn't include the returns that a person gets on the employer contribution to a 401k. Total compensation from employers has risen. And consumption has also risen, so the lifestyle that people lead is higher.

    2. Thomas Sowell will probably make people mad here. He says the CPI has an inflationary bias. It counts things that people are likely to buy on a regular basis but excludes all of the things like laptops and household appliances which are cheaper relative to inflation. It also tries to compare a Cadillac in 1979 to 2018. The new Cadillac is a totally different car with a lot more features.

    3. Sowell says the talk of a shrinking middle class is really disingenuous. He says income distributions have shifted to the right. That doesn't mean there are more people concentrated at lower levels. There are more people at upper incomes now. He also makes the point that lowest incomes are higher since 1970 in inflation adjusted dollars.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    1. The value of health benefits (401k match and health insurance) has increased fairly dramatically as a share of income. The compensation figures that show stagnation leave that out. Plus that doesn't include the returns that a person gets on the employer contribution to a 401k. Total compensation from employers has risen. And consumption has also risen, so the lifestyle that people lead is higher.

    2. Thomas Sowell will probably make people mad here. He says the CPI has an inflationary bias. It counts things that people are likely to buy on a regular basis but excludes all of the things like laptops and household appliances which are cheaper relative to inflation.
    So, he's saying that the reduction in price of new technologies, due to the march of technical progress which has always improved to lives of people over time, should count as deflation, but the skyrocketing cost of health care, and insurance policies which tend to offer us less complete coverage over time, should not count as inflation?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So, he's saying that the reduction in price of new technologies, due to the march of technical progress which has always improved to lives of people over time, should count as deflation, but the skyrocketing cost of health care, and insurance policies which tend to offer us less complete coverage over time, should not count as inflation?
    That's a really good point. He left out college and health care.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And of course, every colony and every tyranny ever has had a middle class, mostly comprised of collaborators.
    If you define "middle class" as those in the middle- between the rich and the poor-, there has always been and will always be a middle class. If you want to use the Jane Austin class measures, the upper class were educated and had property- which defines much of what is the middle class today.

    How does one define "middle class"?

    Pride and Prejudice Classes:

    https://rpowell.livejournal.com/52202.html

    SOCIAL CLASS AND THE BENNET FAMILY IN “PRIDE AND PREJUDICE”

    Considering how long I have been a fan of Jane Austen’s 1813 novel, "PRIDE AND PREJUDICE" and its numerous television and movie adaptations, I am surprised that I have never considered something about its heroine, Elizabeth Bennet, and her family. Ever since I have been reading numerous articles about the novel and its adaptations, I have noticed that many have labeled the Bennet family as members of the middle-class or the upper middle-class in Regency England. And it finally occurred to me that many of these fans were in error.

    I can see the doubt rising in the eyes of those reading this article. The Bennets were not middle-class or upper middle-class? How can that be? After all, Austen’s novel made it clear that Fitzwilliam Darcy had married beneath him when Elizabeth Bennet became his wife. But if one knew the truth about social classes in Great Britain around that time, one would understand that Mr. Darcy actually married a woman from his own class. Elizabeth, her father and her sisters had been born into the landed gentry. They were born as members of Regency England’s upper class.

    It is quite apparent that Mr. Darcy was a member of the upper class. He was the owner of a vast estate in Derbyshire called Pemberly. His estate earned him £10,000 pounds per year. The Darcy family had been members of the landed gentry for generations. And his mother, Lady Anne Darcy (formerly Anne Fitzwilliam) came from an aristocratic family. In other words, his maternal grandfather was a peer. But what many fans of Austen’s novel failed to realize that despite her mother’s family connections, Elizabeth also came from the landed gentry.

    The Landed Gentry is a traditional British social class consisting of "gentlemen" in the original sense. In other words, those who owned land in the form of country estates to such an extent that they were not required to work except in an administrative capacity of their own lands. The estates were often, but not always, made up of tenant farms, in which the gentleman could live entirely off rent income. The landed gentry were among the untitled members of the upper class, not the middle class.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you want to use the Jane Austin class measures...
    ...Austen’s novel made it clear that Fitzwilliam Darcy had married beneath him when Elizabeth Bennet became his wife.
    So a member of the upper class marrying another member of the upper class is marrying beneath himself?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So a member of the upper class marrying another member of the upper class is marrying beneath himself?
    I should have included the next couple paragraphs at the link:

    Mr. Bennet, Elizabeth’s father, was an English gentleman who owned the estate, Longbourn. His estate earned him at least £2,000 pounds per year. Many of the novel’s fans tend to assume that because his estate earned this amount, he was a landowner that happened to be a part of the middle class. What fans have failed to remember is that "PRIDE AND PREJUDICE" was written and set either during the late 18th century or the early 19th century. Social status was determined by family connections and on a smaller scale, how an individual earned money. If Mr. Bennet was really a member of the middle class in Regency England, he would be a tenant farmer (one who rented land from landowners) or a yeoman farmer (one who owns land, but has to work the fields himself). Since Mr. Bennet was neither, he was a member of the upper class.

    However, Mr. Bennet did marry beneath him. He married a young woman, whose father was an attorney in Meryton. Her brother, Mr. Gardiner was a businessman (or in trade); and her sister, Mrs. Phillips, was married to another attorney. In other words, Mrs. Bennet and her siblings originally came from the middle class. Mr. Darcy and the Bingleys (sans Charles) had expressed contempt at Mrs. Bennet’s social origins, not Mr. Bennet’s. But Elizabeth and her sisters were not African-American slaves from the Old South or Britain's imperial holdings. Meaning, they did not inherit their social status from their mother. They inherited their status from their landowning father, also making them members of the landed gentry . . . and the upper class. And as it turned out, Mr. Bennet was not the only member of his immediate family who married someone from what was considered a socially inferior class.
    She was considered socially inferior- not economically inferior.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I should have included the next couple paragraphs at the link:
    You mean the paragraphs which say he had to be a tenant or yeoman farmer to be middle class, then turns around and lumps merchants and attorneys in as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    She was considered socially inferior- not economically inferior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Collins
    "Do not make yourself uneasy, my dear cousin, about your apparel. Lady Catherine is far from requiring that elegance of dress in us which becomes herself and her daughter. I could advise you merely to put on whatever of your clothes is superior to the rest—there is no occasion for anything more. Lady Catherine will not think the worse of you for being simply dressed. She likes to have the distinction of rank preserved."
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-25-2018 at 01:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  18. #16
    The real question is, how does one define "middle class"? Whether or not Elizabeth Bennet in an 1800's piece of English fiction was or not is irrelevant to 21st Century USA.

    What makes one "middle class" today? About two thirds of Americans think that applies to them.

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/212660/m...on-levels.aspx

    STORY HIGHLIGHTS

    62% identify as upper-middle or middle class, similar to 2008
    Just 2% of Americans identify as upper class
    Older adults much more likely than young adults to identify as middle class
    Despite evidence of rising income inequality in recent years, Americans are no more likely now than in the past to identify themselves at the high or low ends of the social class hierarchy. Furthermore, few Americans call themselves upper class, and the percentage who choose the upper-middle-class label is not materially higher than it was from 2000 through 2008.

    Similarly, the percentage of Americans who place themselves in the lower- or working-class categories is about the same today as it was in the years 2008 and before. Thus, the evidence here doesn't suggest that a sharp decline in the middle class, or a rise in the working class, was related to Donald Trump's election success last year.

    Overall, "middle class" is the label Americans use more than any other to describe their social class, providing a useful catchphrase for politicians interested in appealing to the broadest swath of the public.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-25-2018 at 02:22 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The real question is, how does one define "middle class"? Whether or not Elizabeth Bennet in an 1800's piece of English fiction was or not is irrelevant to 21st Century USA.

    What makes one "middle class" today?
    Ah, but of course that is your emphasis, isn't it? If we can't convince the middle class that they have no reason to believe the middle class will continue, and are not a "cyclical phenomenon", then by all means let's try to redefine middle class as the working poor who only need little bit of food stamps, as opposed to the homeless who buy all their food with food stamps.

    Anything to distract the conversation from the fact that the devaluation of the Federal Reserve Note is redistributing massive amounts of wealth, and that wealth is all "upwardly mobile".

    In fact, the existing wealth is just about the only thing in this country which is "upwardly mobile". But you consider that beside the point, don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Ah, but of course that is your emphasis, isn't it? If we can't convince the middle class that they have no reason to believe the middle class will continue, and are not a "cyclical phenomenon", then by all means let's try to redefine middle class as the working poor who only need little bit of food stamps, as opposed to the homeless who buy all their food with food stamps.

    Anything to distract the conversation from the fact that the devaluation of the Federal Reserve Note is redistributing massive amounts of wealth, and that wealth is all "upwardly mobile".

    In fact, the existing wealth is just about the only thing in this country which is "upwardly mobile". But you consider that beside the point, don't you?

    So you consider "middle class" to mean people on food stamps?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So you consider "middle class" to mean people on food stamps?
    So you took nothing at all from what I said? It all went in one eye and out the other?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So you took nothing at all from what I said? It all went in one eye and out the other?
    I asked what you consider "middle class". If we are going to discuss the status of the middle class, there should be some basic agreement as to what we are talking about.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I asked what you consider "middle class". If we are going to discuss the status of the middle class, there should be some basic agreement as to what we are talking about.
    Just as soon as you establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that dollar devaluation is not causing real wages to fall continually in real time, and that wage devaluation does not constitute a transfer of wealth to the wealthy, then I will consider your deflection relevant enough to be worthy of discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Just as soon as you establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that dollar devaluation is not causing real wages to fall continually in real time, and that wage devaluation does not constitute a transfer of wealth to the wealthy, then I will consider your deflection relevant enough to be worthy of discussion.
    The topic was the middle class. It is not a "deflection" but continuation of the topic. You are the one deflecting.

    But what should be a solution? The Fed to raise interest rates above the rate of inflation so that people stop borrowing money (and make it harder to pay back what they have already borrowed)? Will higher interest rates improve the income/ wealth of the middle class and slow the wealth growth of the upper class- reducing the income gap? Higher interest rates also reduce businesses from borrowing to expand their businesses and increase their costs- meaning fewer new jobs and less money to pass along to workers in the form of salaries or less to pass along to consumers in the form of lower prices. That would hurt the middle class- however we choose to define it.

    Should the government tax the wealthy and give money to those at lower income levels to reduce the income spread? Pass laws to make free agreements between borrowers and lenders more difficult or even illegal?

    The Fed only sets short term interest rates. They don't take money from one group and give it to another. They don't decide where money goes. Government policies and markets decide that. But if they could, what would you suggest the Fed do about income disparities?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-25-2018 at 02:25 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  26. #23
    Sound money.

    At the very least, an end to legal tender monopoly laws and the option of sound money.

    Did you honestly not know I was going to say that? You must be the new guy.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-25-2018 at 02:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Sound money.

    At the very least, an end to legal tender monopoly laws and the option of sound money.

    Did you honestly not know I was going to say that? You must be the new guy.
    What do you consider "sound money" and how does that prevent the rich from getting richer or help the middle class grow? Some consider gold to be "sound money" We had the Great Depression under a gold standard.

    The Gini Coefficient is a measure of wealth disparity. Here is what it has looked like in the US:

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-25-2018 at 02:39 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Just as soon as you establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that dollar devaluation is not causing real wages to fall continually in real time, and that wage devaluation does not constitute a transfer of wealth to the wealthy, then I will consider your deflection relevant enough to be worthy of discussion.

    I get the argument for why inflation is bad for lowering income earners. I get it pushes speculative assets up or at least allows people with assets to better hedge themselves against the effects of inflation.

    I don't think it is clear cut though. Was deflation good for the middle class in the Great Depression? If Ben Bernanke would have just let the bottom fall out of the world would that have been good for the average person? It might have reduced income inequality in the same way Venezuela is reducing income inequality by making everyone poor.

  30. #26
    The other question is, if the middle class is actually shrinking, in which direction is it going? Are people leaving it because their wealth increased or because it has decreased?

    https://www.npr.org/2016/07/07/48494...by-the-numbers

    Not surprising, the distribution of the middle class varies by location and cost of living.

    Midland, Texas, is currently home to one of the country's smallest middle-income groups — only 43 percent of the population. That's because so many people have actually gotten richer. In fact, thanks to the oil industry, Midland has the highest percentage of upper-income families in the U.S.: 37 percent.

    Compare this to Goldsboro, N.C., where the middle-income group dropped to 48 percent of the population in 2014, from 60 percent in 2000. Meanwhile, its lower-income group grew to 41 percent, up from 27 percent, during the same period.

    Nonetheless, the overall trend is upward: The middle class may be shrinking, but two-thirds of those who leave have moved up, while one-third have dropped to a lower income group.

    "There is actually more progress than regression,"
    says Rakesh Kochhar, who studies the middle class and is associate director of research at the Pew Research Center.

    Although that may be the case, it doesn't feel that way everywhere. For every Fargo, N.D., where the unemployment rate is 3 percent, there's a Flint, Mich., where it's 10 percent.

    In the end, the concept of the middle class goes beyond numbers — it's very much a matter of feeling and a state of mind. It's an identity that also can encapsulate certain social and political values, as well as other markers like a college education, white-collar work, economic security or homeownership. In the past century, the material comfort and social meaning of the middle class stood in for many as the quintessential American Dream — even for those who didn't strictly qualify as "middle income."

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  31. #27
    When was the Federal Reserve created, yet again, Zippy? How does that square with the claim we were on a pure gold standard two decades later, yet again, Zippy?

    You are new here.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  32. #28
    Well, was it a pure, unadulterated gold standard in place 16-26 years after the creation of the Fed or not?

    And what part of "competing currencies" was it that led you to believe I was advocating any kind of "standard"?

    Come on, new kid on the block. Your predessors could deflect away from answering those two in their sleep.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-25-2018 at 03:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    When was the Federal Reserve created, yet again, Zippy? How does that square with the claim we were on a pure gold standard two decades later, yet again, Zippy?

    You are new here.
    The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have both a gold standard and a central bank.

    What is a "pure" gold standard? Examples from history of them?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have both a gold standard and a central bank.

    What is a "pure" gold standard? Examples from history of them?
    Well, you know perfectly well it's a gold standard without a central bank. It's where you use gold as money. You know. Gold=money. You take gold, coin it, and use it to buy things. Like that.

    What has any of this to do with competing currencies?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Video: Ruling Class on Track to Destroy Middle America in 2013
    By SpreadOfLiberty in forum Privacy & Data Security
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-10-2013, 10:38 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-20-2011, 07:14 PM
  3. No Rest for the Debt-Addled Middle Class
    By bobbyw24 in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-26-2011, 08:34 AM
  4. Debt Stress in Middle Class America
    By bobbyw24 in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-26-2009, 03:53 PM
  5. Ventura: U.S. Government Out To Destroy Middle Class
    By PatriotG in forum Liberty Campaigns
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-15-2008, 12:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •