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Thread: New 'Waco' Dramatized TV Series Attempts to Strike a Balanced Narrative

  1. #1

    New 'Waco' Dramatized TV Series Attempts to Strike a Balanced Narrative

    http://www.businessinsider.com/waco-...l-story-2018-2

    The creators of a new TV series about 'Waco' say the media didn't tell the full story of the infamous siege

    • The creators of "Waco," a miniseries on the Paramount Network, said they learned that the media coverage in 1993 was very one-sided.
    • In their research, John Erick and Drew Dowdle learned more about the people living in the cult.
    • The idea for a show based on the 51-day siege came while they were researching a character for a completely different project.
    • The show stars Michael Shannon, Taylor Kitsch, and Rory Culkin.


    The creators of new TV miniseries "Waco" always meant for it to show the whole truth of the 1993 Waco siege, by telling the story from multiple perspectives: especially those that weren't told by the media. But they didn't expect it to have such cultural relevance to our current political landscape.


    "Waco," a miniseries on the Paramount Network (formerly Spike TV), stars Michael Shannon, Taylor Kitsch, John Leguiziamo, and Melissa Benoist. Business Insider recently spoke to the creators of the show, brothers John Erick and Drew Dowdle. In writing the show, they said they discovered the media only told one side of the story in 1993.


    With "Waco," the Dowdles hoped to emphasize the power of communication, and that there's more to this story, and every person involved.


    "We really tried to see what makes people tick on all sides of this, that was really important to us," co-creator Drew Dowdle said.
    The Siege

    The Waco siege, which lasted from February 28 to April 19, 1993, was a 51-day standoff at a compound belonging to a religious group called the Branch Davidians, led by David Koresh.


    Koresh convinced his followers that he was Christ. They lived together on the compound — which they called Mount Carmel — to prepare for the end of the world. The Mount Carmel compound had no electricity, heat, or running water.


    The standoff, between the Branch Davidians and the FBI along with the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms), began when the ATF attempted to raid the compound to find illegal weapons. There were also rumors of abuse against women and children on the compound.


    Eventually, the FBI initiated a tear gas attack in an attempt to force the Branch Davidians out, resulting in a fire. 76 people died, including Koresh.


    The Waco siege is cited as one of the motivations behind the 1996 Oklahoma City bombing. During the standoff, crowds gathered on a hill a few miles away from Mount Carmel to see what was happening. Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, then 24, visited that site, where he distributed pro-gun literature and bumper stickers.
    "The power of talk"

    "Waco" was in development before topics like gun control and white supremacy saw high-profile coverage leading up to the 2016 presidential election.


    "Waco" co-creator John Erick Dowdle said he felt like the country was "already going down that path," even though they started working on the series four years ago. "We've lost some ability to talk," he said of America. "And this show is an exploration of the power of talk."


    In "Waco," Michael Shannon's FBI agent Gary Noesner (who the Dowdles spoke to personally) makes multiple attempts to communicate with Koresh and the Branch Davidians.
    He tries to convince other agents — both his colleagues at the FBI and ATF agents — to prioritize peaceful communication over violent tactics. Unfortunately, not many others seem to see things the way Noesner does.

    Firsthand accounts

    The Dowdles said they stumbled upon the idea for a show about the Waco siege "kind of randomly."


    In reading firsthand accounts of the Waco siege, meant as research for a character in a completely different story they were writing, the Dowdles realized this was the show they should write.


    The Dowdles spoke to people on all sides of the siege: FBI agents, ATF agents, and David Thibodeau, a Branch Davidian who survived the fire (played by Rory Culkin in the series). Through Thibodeau, whom they spoke to extensively, the audience gets to see how someone could believably get roped in by Koresh, who is manipulative but charming, and a very convincing leader.

    cont..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #2
    In a world where War = Peace and Freedom = Slavery, would Balanced = Completely $#@!ing Lopsided hold true?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

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    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  4. #3
    The Waco siege, which lasted from February 28 to April 19, 1993, was a 51-day standoff at a compound belonging to a religious group called the Branch Davidians, led by David Koresh.
    Wasn't a compound, it was a church.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    In a world where War = Peace and Freedom = Slavery, would Balanced = Completely $#@!ing Lopsided hold true?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Wasn't a compound, it was a church.
    They said the same thing about Edward and Elaine Brown. They actually used: "Fortress-like Compound." Giving people that they were ready for war.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  7. #6
    Has anyone seen this? Is it worth watching, or is it whitewash propaganda?

    Does it paint the government, including FBI/ATF/Clinton/Reno in the proper light of being murders? Anything less is propaganda.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  8. #7


    Koresh convinced his followers that he was Christ.
    Did he?
    I don't remember hearing that from any of the survivors.. or old recordings I had heard.

    They thought he was a prophet.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Did he?
    I don't remember hearing that from any of the survivors.. or old recordings I had heard.

    They thought he was a prophet.
    yeah, I have never heard this either.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Has anyone seen this? Is it worth watching, or is it whitewash propaganda?

    Does it paint the government, including FBI/ATF/Clinton/Reno in the proper light of being murders? Anything less is propaganda.
    That's what I'm trying to determine myself.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Did he?
    I don't remember hearing that from any of the survivors.. or old recordings I had heard.

    They thought he was a prophet.
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    yeah, I have never heard this either.
    That's because it was government media bull$#@!

    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 02-19-2018 at 02:29 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Has anyone seen this? Is it worth watching, or is it whitewash propaganda?

    Does it paint the government, including FBI/ATF/Clinton/Reno in the proper light of being murders? Anything less is propaganda.
    So far only 4 episodes of 6 are out, the fifth episode airs on 2/21/18.

    I would say it's pretty good so far, they make the agents out to look pretty blood thirsty. They have a Texas radio talk show commentator who they show throughout the series and he is pretty sensible.

    The first episode actually dramatizes Ruby Ridge. They quickly show a flash of the mom holding the baby, then they show a shot fired through the door at a poor angle where you can't really see it and then later her on the floor with a bullet in her head and the baby crying - they probably avoided showing it because it is a TV show and not HBO, Showtime, Netflix, Amazon, maybe even AMC.. but I'm not sure that they did a very great job connecting the audience with the mother, the child, and then they don't actually show her getting shot while holding the child.

    So you have to really be paying attention or know what happened to understand the horror that happened in that scene, but the fact that Vicki (the mother) was shot does become a topic several more times in the show so people know it happened.. I just don't know how many realized she was holding the baby at the time.

    The negotiator for the FBI apparently actually wanted to open an investigation into Ruby Ridge and the protagonist within the government is the negotiator. The antagonist is the military agent guy Richard Rogers who always pushes for more force and that always messes things up.

    The show takes the Davidian's take on how the conflict started and escalated, at least in general.. but of course everybody wants to know what they do in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post

    Koresh convinced his followers that he was Christ.
    Did he?
    I don't remember hearing that from any of the survivors.. or old recordings I had heard.

    They thought he was a prophet.
    Ya, the article posted about about the Messiah was featured in the show.

    The way Koresh explained "Messiah" was someone who brought you to God. So in one case David claimed that someone's mom was their Messiah, in another case a man's son who was blind was his Messiah. And yes, he claimed to be a Messiah for many people, but did not claim to be Jesus.
    Last edited by dannno; 02-19-2018 at 03:24 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Oh and so far there is no evidence that the Davidian's had any illegal weapons, although the government seems to be convinced they do.

    In the show, much of the drama in the church centers around David Koresh, a polygamist, while all of the other men take a vow of celibacy. He takes on the burden of having sex for them. His 'main' wife he got married to and had a child with at age 14, which was legal under Texas law with parents permission which he had.. however.. later he decided to marry her younger sister who was only 12. Apparently people in the church were unsure of what to think at first until the 'main' wife, her older sister, has a dream and in the dream God told her it was OK and so the wedding and consummation went forward, and she had a child.

    I dunno how much of that side is true.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Did he?
    I don't remember hearing that from any of the survivors.. or old recordings I had heard.

    They thought he was a prophet.
    He never claimed to be Christ, but a prophet who needed to finish his last Oracle or some $#@!. The attorney of Koresh's grandmother, who was trying to reach out to the jackboots and propagandists was emphatic that once David had written his stupid prophecy he would surrender. The jackboots just wanted blood, and the propagandists just ran interference for that scraggly DOJ $#@!.

  16. #14
    recently watched corbett reports Tim Mcvaye youtube, lot of interesting parralells and connections

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    They said the same thing about Edward and Elaine Brown. They actually used: "Fortress-like Compound." Giving people that they were ready for war.
    Mission of PatCon was to try to destroy the public perception of anti govt groups

  18. #16
    This sounds good.

    I've always wondered what cults & their compounds were like behind the scenes
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  20. #17
    I've also wondered why their cult decided to light their own buildings on fire like that.

    Maybe it was just a cult thing.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I've also wondered why their cult decided to light their own buildings on fire like that.

    Maybe it was just a cult thing.
    You were there, weren't you?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Wasn't a compound, it was a church.
    Ya ok sure.

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  23. #20
    Does it show clearly illegal activity like Alabama military craft overhead and Army Special Forces at the scene ?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    You were there, weren't you?
    I was in the general vicinity yes, less than 100 miles away. I saw & heard everything, on tv.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Does it show clearly illegal activity like Alabama military craft overhead and Army Special Forces at the scene ?
    No, I'm pretty sure the tanks that were there were owned by the local police department
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Ya ok sure.

    Looks like somebody really messed up the landscaping.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Does it show clearly illegal activity like Alabama military craft overhead and Army Special Forces at the scene ?
    I think there are 30 days or so left to cover in the last two episodes that haven't been released yet, but they have the tanks there and they had a scene showing a military helicopter circling the compound like 30 or 40 feet overhead, trying to mess with them.

    The militarization of the police is a huge theme.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    We'll see what the last two episodes have to bring, but it's interesting that they tie in Ruby Ridge at the beginning. Also interesting that this is based on two books from both sides: one from the Waco survivors, and one from the head FBI negotiator for both Ruby Ridge and Waco.
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Oh and so far there is no evidence that the Davidian's had any illegal weapons,...

    CBS did a Waco special a few weeks ago. Fairly crappy, but they did get a couple things right. They didn't say any weapons were illegal. If they were illegal, then I assume the CBS libtards would have been all over that.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
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    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  31. #27
    If they had cast James Franco as David Koresh they could have put this on Netflix or made it into a feature film.

    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #28
    5th episode..

    The negotiator goes to see the kids who were released from a previous episode, they are playing in the playground.

    "These kids were not abused. I've seen abused kids. These kids were loved."
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #29
    Wow, 5th episode was pretty solid.

    I hear the season finale is gonna be a doozy...
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Last episode aired, they got it pretty much all right.

    The negotiator had an agreement that they would all come out after David finished a manuscript, so they gave them a week. The woman who was typing the manuscript's finger had been shot by the ATF and so she was having difficulty typing, but he was working on it that week and while that was going on the head FBI guys were getting an attack order authorized by Janet Reno (and President C.) and they believed Koresh was just stalling and not writing a manuscript.

    The episode made the whole thing out to be very preventable, they were all planning on coming out soon.

    The FBI secured CS gas and they decided to go in before the Davidians were ready to come out, and they filled the building with gas and they messed up the building so bad all the women and children got trapped.

    A fire started, and the FBI claimed the Davidians started it which was the official story, but the movie pretty much said that was bull$#@! because they also admitted to using flash bang grenades. They also documented a dozen previous cases where CS gas was used and it started building fires and killed everybody inside as it is incendiary.

    No reason there shouldn't have been some murder charges.
    Last edited by dannno; 03-01-2018 at 11:27 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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