Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 78910 LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 288

Thread: Do you support unlimited immigration into US

  1. #241
    Another assault by Rev3.0 on sanity. This should be reported.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    1. Land which is already owned cannot be homesteaded.
    We aren't talking about "land" or "property", we are talking about "territory", only states own "territory" individuals can't hold territorial rights unless they are a monarch who owns a state.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    2. A homesteading-by-the-state theory logically concludes with justifying anything that any state does, not only your ideal state's actions.
    No, the state exists to protect the rights of it's citizens so it can't have a right to do anything that would violate them but the citizens don't have an individual right to bring foreigners into the country without the consent of the rest of the group and foreigners don't have a right to enter.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We aren't talking about "land" or "property", we are talking about "territory", only states own "territory" individuals can't hold territorial rights unless they are a monarch who owns a state.
    First, the rights which you say the state has are property rights, in either the land or people, or both. All rights are property rights. Second, whatever you call it, there is no explanation for how the state acquired it which is consistent with liberal principles. The only justification for the state consistent with liberalism is the consequentialist one, that I and other minarchists advocate. As soon as you start talking about the state having absolute rights to do thing (not for some greater liberal good, but for whatever reason it pleases), you depart liberalism.

    No, the state exists to protect the rights of it's citizens so it can't have a right to do anything that would violate them but the citizens don't have an individual right to bring foreigners into the country without the consent of the rest of the group and foreigners don't have a right to enter.
    You keep equivocating between this pseudo-homesteading theory and the above.

  5. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    First, the rights which you say the state has are property rights, in either the land or people, or both. All rights are property rights. Second, whatever you call it, there is no explanation for how the state acquired it which is consistent with liberal principles. The only justification for the state consistent with liberalism is the consequentialist one, that I and other minarchists advocate. As soon as you start talking about the state having absolute rights to do thing (not for some greater liberal good, but for whatever reason it pleases), you depart liberalism.



    You keep equivocating between this pseudo-homesteading theory and the above.
    Let's start from the beginning:

    People live in an area and homestead the land
    They experience threats from within and without the local community
    They create a state to administer justice and protect against outside threats
    The state adds value to the general area by fulfilling it's function
    Adding value gives the state ownership over the area and therefore the right to control it in any way that doesn't violate the rights of the citizens
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Let's start from the beginning:

    [1.] People live in an area and homestead the land
    [2.] They experience threats from within and without the local community
    [3.] They create a state to administer justice and protect against outside threats
    [4.] The state adds value to the general area by fulfilling it's function
    [5.] Adding value gives the state ownership over the area and therefore the right to control it in any way that doesn't violate the rights of the citizens
    1-3 are fine.

    4-5 are the problem.

    3 states the liberal justification of the state (it exists to minimize aggression, and for no other purpose).

    But then in 4-5 you inexplicably grant it (through a pseudo-homesteading process, not at all like the liberal one) additional rights, to do certain things (like restrict immigration) even when this doesn't serve the purpose of minimizing aggression.

  7. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    1-3 are fine.

    4-5 are the problem.

    3 states the liberal justification of the state (it exists to minimize aggression, and for no other purpose).

    But then in 4-5 you inexplicably grant it (through a pseudo-homesteading process, not at all like the liberal one) additional rights, to do certain things (like restrict immigration) even when this doesn't serve the purpose of minimizing aggression.
    Administering justice and protecting against outside threats doesn't add value to an area?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Administering justice and protecting against outside threats doesn't add value to an area?
    The land is already owned by a king.

  9. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Administering justice and protecting against outside threats doesn't add value to an area?
    Sure they do, but so what?

    If the purpose of the state is to minimize aggression, the fact that it does so, and thereby adds value to the area, doesn't change its purpose.

    In effect, you're saying that the state which does a good job protecting property rights should be rewarded with the right to violate them.

    ...which makes no sense at all (not from a liberal perspective anyway).



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Sure they do, but so what?

    If the purpose of the state is to minimize aggression, the fact that it does so, and thereby adds value to the area, doesn't change its purpose.
    The workman is worthy of his hire.


    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In effect, you're saying that the state which does a good job protecting property rights should be rewarded with the right to violate them.

    ...which makes no sense at all (not from a liberal perspective anyway).
    It doesn't violate anyone's rights, it protects them.

    What you have to remember is that territory and the state are group functions, it is the group (and it's members) that adds value to the area by creating, supporting and submitting to the state, this gives them the collective right to determine who may join the group or enter the group's property, it's not only a group property right but it affects the group's duties and responsibilities to allow new members or visitors to enter the territory.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It doesn't violate anyone's rights, it protects them.
    Everything the state does violates people's rights, if for no other reason than that everything the state does requires taxation. Hence, the only justification for anything the state does (indeed, its very existence) is that the action ultimately makes for less aggression (e.g. a little tax better than a lot of anarchy). You could argue that immigration restrictions are justified because they ultimately make for less aggression, and remain within the liberal paradigm, but to argue that such a policy doesn't violate people's rights at all (or, what is the same thing, that the state has some inherent right to do this) is to abandon liberalism altogether, and that's what you've done.

  13. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Everything the state does violates people's rights, if for no other reason than that everything the state does requires taxation. Hence, the only justification for anything the state does (indeed, its very existence) is that the action ultimately makes for less aggression (e.g. a little tax better than a lot of anarchy). You could argue that immigration restrictions are justified because they ultimately make for less aggression, and remain within the liberal paradigm, but to argue that such a policy doesn't violate people's rights at all (or, what is the same thing, that the state has some inherent right to do this) is to abandon liberalism altogether, and that's what you've done.
    It protects the people's right to determine who joins their group and benefits from the group's protection.

    Outsiders have no right to join a group unbidden and individuals have no right to induct a member without the consent of the group.
    Those aspects of the group that limit the actions of the members or take some portion of their property are justified by the need to administer justice and protect against outsiders, without those needs there would be no need for the group itself and there would be no question of group membership at all, however once the group exists it has an inherent right to consent to or refuse any applications for membership, that power doesn't add to the violation of any rights because it is part the creation of the group itself which is already justified.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It protects the people's right to determine who joins their group...
    No such thing

  15. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No such thing
    It's an inherent aspect of any group.

    I think we have come to the end of this debate since this point is fundamental to any discussion of the subject, so long as we disagree on it we will never come to the same conclusions about anything that relates to it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's an inherent aspect of any group.

    I think we have come to the end of this debate since this point is fundamental to any discussion of the subject, so long as we disagree on it we will never come to the same conclusions about anything that relates to it.
    Yes, we have different principles: mine liberal, yours otherwise.

    That is the point I've been trying to impress upon you for 7 pages.

  17. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Yes, we have different principles: mine liberal, yours otherwise.

    That is the point I've been trying to impress upon you for 7 pages.
    Mine are liberal, as I have been pointing out for those same 7 pages.
    I seek to protect the group members' freedom of association/disassociation.
    The fact that you disagree about whether the members have that right doesn't make my position illiberal it simply makes us two different kinds of "classic" liberals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I seek to protect the group members' freedom of association/disassociation.
    No, freedom of association refers to the rights of property owners to control access to their property, either individually or (when collective property is created by contract) collectively: e.g. a restaurateur choosing who to serve or a country club choosing who can join. You're talking about something entirely different and contradictory: an alleged right of the majority to control the property of the minority, simply because they're the majority (not because there was any agreement as with legitimately created collective property).



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No, freedom of association refers to the rights of property owners to control access to their property, either individually or (when collective property is created by contract) collectively: e.g. a restaurateur choosing who to serve or a country club choosing who can join. You're talking about something entirely different and contradictory: an alleged right of the majority to control the property of the minority.
    I maintain that the territory under the protection of the group is group property and that they have a group right to control access to their property and the protection they provide.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I maintain that the territory under the protection of the group is group property and that they have a group right to control access to their property and the protection they provide.
    I know, hence you're not a liberal.

    On this particular issue, you're a socialist.

  22. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I know, hence you're not a liberal.

    On this particular issue, you're a socialist.
    I have ceased to care how you mislabel my position.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I have ceased to care how you mislabel my position.
    Words have meanings.

    The idea that the majority collectively own things simply in virtue of being the majority is called socialism.

    The idea that this is immoral on its face and stupid in practice is called liberalism.

    I'm not asking you to change your position, just to be intellectually honest about it.

  24. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Words have meanings.

    The idea that the majority collectively own things simply in virtue of being the majority is called socialism.
    That's not my position, my position is that the group earns/creates territorial ownership rights by working together to protect the area, and that they don't own the property rights to any of the land or other assets in the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The idea that this is immoral on its face and stupid in practice is called liberalism.
    Since my position agrees with that assessment of YOUR definition of socialism it is liberal.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm not asking you to change your position, just be to intellectually honest about it.
    I am, you are the one who is being intellectually dishonest by claiming that my position is that the majority collectively own things simply in virtue of being the majority.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That's not my position, my position is that the group earns/creates territorial ownership rights by working together to protect the area, and that they don't own the property rights to any of the land or other assets in the area.
    Your "territorial ownership rights" are simply property rights in the land and/or people: property rights which you've taken from their rightful holders and given to the majority. And why? Simply because the group exists, not because it homesteaded or contracted to obtain these property rights. There is no meaningful difference between what you're advocating and what any democratic socialist advocates, except that you've limited the socialist argument to immigration issues. It is very obviously a way to justify what you know to be an exception to the liberalism which you otherwise advocate.

  26. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Your "territorial ownership rights" are simply property rights in the land and/or people: property rights which you've taken from their rightful holders and given to the majority. And why? Simply because the group exists, not because it homesteaded or contracted to obtain these property rights.
    It homesteads the territory by protecting the area.

    You can't just hand-wave away my arguments and then claim I don't have any basis for my position.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #264
    Round 2 is moving very quickly. Hold on to your seats.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It homesteads the territory by protecting the area.

    You can't just hand-wave away my arguments and then claim I don't have any basis for my position.
    I'm not "hand-waving" it away; I'm stating as plainly as humanly possible that your argument is illiberal. Have you ever read any liberal work that touched on the homesteading principle, e.g. any of Rothbard's ethical writings? Have you ever found in any of those works any reference to your idea of a group "homesteading" already owned property? No, of course not, as that's contrary to the whole idea. And, to reiterate, I'm not trying to "disprove" your arguments, to show that they have no basis; I'm only trying to show that they're inconsistent with liberalism, have no basis in liberal theory.

  30. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm not "hand-waving" it away; I'm stating as plainly as humanly possible that your argument is illiberal. Have you ever read any liberal work that touched on the homesteading principle, e.g. any of Rothbard's ethical writings? Have you ever found in any of those works any reference to your idea of a group "homesteading" already owned property? No, of course not, as that's contrary to the whole idea. And, to reiterate, I'm not trying to "disprove" your arguments, to show that they have no basis; I'm only trying to show that they're inconsistent with liberalism, have no basis in liberal theory.
    The "territory" is not already owned, it exists as a concept of the human mind separate from the land inside it, "territory" and it's Siamese twin "group membership" are group functions so they can't be owned by an individual.

    The group is created to protect the members in an area and they have a right to decide who they will protect and who they will allow into the group, neither of these has anything to do with the individuals' property but are inseparable from the "territory".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The "territory" is not already owned, it exists as a concept of the human mind separate from the land inside it, "territory" and it's Siamese twin "group membership" are group functions so they can't be owned by an individual.

    The group is created to protect the members in an area and they have a right to decide who they will protect and who they will allow into the group, neither of these has anything to do with the individuals' property but are inseparable from the "territory".
    The "territory" which the group allegedly homesteads is a bundle of rights relaying to immigration policy, correct?

    e.g. the right to collect taxes for the purpose of financing that policy, correct?

  32. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The groups alleged rights include the right to collect taxes for the purpose of financing restrictive immigration policy, correct?
    The right to collect taxes to finance all legitimate government functions.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The right to collect taxes to finance all legitimate government functions.
    Gotcha, but the only issue in contention here is immigration policy, so I'll focus on that.

    Now, prior to the group acquiring this alleged right to my money, was my money unowned?

    (...not a trick question, the answer is just as obvious as it appears to be...)
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 02-16-2018 at 11:20 PM.

  34. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Gotcha, but the only issue in contention here is immigration policy, so I'll focus on that.

    Now, prior to the group acquiring this alleged right to my money, was my money unowned?

    (...not a trick question, the answer is just as obvious as it appears to be...)
    Since we are theoretically dealing with the founding of a new group in ancient times then the answer is no.
    In modern times the group existed before you did.

    This question brings up another way of thinking about territorial control that might suit you better even though I prefer the one I have already laid out: You could say that territorial control is a "tax" on a certain portion of the citizens property rights that is required for the group to perform it's function of protecting the citizens right to control who may join the group and benefit from their protection.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 78910 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 618
    Last Post: 02-08-2018, 02:58 PM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-08-2013, 08:52 PM
  3. POLL: Do you support the new AZ immigration law?
    By bchavez in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 04-27-2010, 07:43 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-05-2010, 07:24 AM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-12-2009, 12:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •