What's The Plan?

[A Son of Liberty]

We are indeed awfully deep into the kimchee now, as you say.

Functionally speaking, I agree.



So it would seem.



This, too, is nauseously true.



At the root of things, compromise should be out of the question. In a world of better men, those very men would never compromise. The only other avenue of action, then, is war or at least the threat of it. If at the pointy end of the threat, those who demanded compromise do not back off, then war becomes more than a mere prospect. In my opinion, this is how it ought to be. The "left" are mostly cowards and non-adepts who, if faced with immediate extinction would surrender without a fight.

And as each day passes, their defeat becomes less and less prospect, sadly. We who recognize the true manner of things... we're left to teeter upon the lever over which liberty and slavery tips. You and I and a few others here are actually the God-forsaken cowards, frankly. We know the end of the script... we know how all of this will play out. Yet here we sit on our comfortable chairs, with a fire burning... awfully comfortable.

My normative ideals are hideous to the eyes of the lesser man because he is a coward, willing to sell his soul in exchange for some token fortune. Therefore, we must work with what we've got.

Disagree. "Working with what we've got" got us to where we're at. We're well past the point of working with what we've got. What we've got is a goddammed mess that ain't salvageable, and ain't worth salvaging.

That being said, I'm glad I got to keep a few score more of mine-own sheckles this week... thanks Don! lol

Given this, compromise as an intermediate and dishonest set of measures would appear to be the only option that holds even the least promise of leading to the desired result. By "intermediate", I mean that one places his honor on the shelf for the time being for the sake of gaining the final objective. This is precisely what the "left" does, and they are well-honed experts at it. Those on the "right" wholly and expertly suck at it.

That works for the left because somnambulism isn't just an element to their strategy; their entire political philosophy DEPENDS upon it. They can sleep-walk the entire human race into their Utopia. We can't. Our ideal world requires that people walk into it eyes wide open...

By "dishonest", I mean that such compromise is by its very nature dishonest toward those with whom it is being made. This is so because the objectives of the Freemen are perforce at deep odds with those of Weakmen. The two are incompatible at the most fundamental conceptual levels. Therefore, if the ultimate goal is freedom, which is anathema to Weakmen, and compromise is being made with the explicit objective of attaining proper liberty, then those accommodations must perforce be lies or other forms of deceit.

Agreed. Perhaps I've tipped one too many back on this Saturday, but does this not disagree with your previous paragraph?

In principle I have no problem with lying and compromising with a despicable but nonetheless dangerous enemy under circumstances such as these. One may do what one feels he must, but in the doing there stands the risk of becoming that which you seek to defeat. Sadly, this is far more likely an outcome than one would want to contemplate.

Ah, I see. Yet I do not believe this is a viable path for us. It wasn't for those who've come before us...

Understatement of the week.

Not to mention all the other advantages to which I have referred in previous posts.

The "left" are not virtuous, nor are they particularly bright. They are, however, endlessly treacherous and very clever pursuant thereto. They enjoy the distinct and crushing advantage of having base human corruption on their side - entropy is a downhill slide for them, whereas it is a steep uphill hump for their betters.

What they actually are, are a bunch of well-intended feels-goods-ers, who've bought, ate and swallowed a sugar-laden jug of bilge water, peddled on their inexperience, virtue, and ignorance. There is a thin layer at the top of pond scum, to be sure, but the rank and file are actually pretty decent people.

I understand your reticence and I will not judge you, but will remind anyone that these are the "weaknesses" that destroy prospects for success. Those who fought the first American revolution risked precisely this - orphaning their children on what was a very uncertain bet. Had they not stepped up, none of us would be here.

We agree here, sir. Judge me as I judge myself - a coward, as I said earlier. I can pretty it up any way I like, at the end of the day, that's the end of the equation. I know how the story goes, yet here I sit on me comfortable ass.

My only defense is that it weighs on me... I didn't say it's a particularly compelling defense.

I understand.

Explain it to me, then... because I don't.

That's only true of the tainted. Yes, I know I'm a grand-scale snot and no, I will not apologize for it.


Unfortunately, that truth, no matter how eloquently forceful in its presentation, will not alter their views. They don't want freedom. They want their pretty slavery, and have gotten it in great abundance. The only problem is that it's been getting less pretty such that ever greater numbers are feeling the pinch Selling your soul is a real bitch.

The blood path to freedom is the cleanest, all else equal. But it requires of men that which they are apparently not willing to give, which is why we will likely never have it. The path of dishonest compromise is far too likely to corrupt the lesser men willing to take it for the sake of convenience, mitigating loss, ignorance, or what have you.

We are deep in the kimchee and I repeat this to the nausea of everyone in the vanishing hope that the depressing nature of the truth might spur them to partake of the red pill and get their asses moving.

Again, I couldn't agree with you more, other than to say that none of us will get up off of our asses until our asses become uncomfortable.

No one wants to be a speed-bump in history. No one wants to sacrifice his life to a vague footnote in a division 3 master's thesis no one will ever read.

What that amounts to is another little pile on the mountain our lineage will climb. I look at my son and I'm ashamed for handing off to him what I'm afraid to face. Maybe he'll do the same with his kid. Maybe his kid will do the same. Someday, someone is gonna pay the piper.

[osan]

And as each day passes, their defeat becomes less and less prospect, sadly. We who recognize the true manner of things... we're left to teeter upon the lever over which liberty and slavery tips. You and I and a few others here are actually the God-forsaken cowards, frankly. We know the end of the script... we know how all of this will play out. Yet here we sit on our comfortable chairs, with a fire burning... awfully comfortable.

Not sure we are necessarily cowards. Proving a coward is one of the very few things I fear in this life. I have expressed this concern to one of my closest friends on several occasions. I have considered my death almost every day of my life since I was about 14. Many would call this "morbid", but it has nothing to do with that brand of fixation. It has everything to do with my perplexity regarding... well, everything. My point with this is that all my training as a warrior, all forty seven years of it to date, has been devoted to the cultivation of personal power - real power and not the sorts that mean men covet - which in its highest form is power over oneself. One aspect of this revolves around the issue of one's courage. When I was 15, in my last year at military school, I'd acquired a false driver's license that said I was eighteen, skipped campus, and went with two other fellows to the Toms River recruiting office. My intention was to become UDT/SEAL. Of course we were cold-busted by the county deputy as we filled out paperwork. But the key here was that even in those days this was a really big deal for me. Nothing in this world reviles me as does a coward. No idea why, but along with child rapists they are the most hideous forms of life in the universe. This is obviously a very personal problem.

That all said, I would like to think that I am not a coward. But why, then, do I not take some materially significant action? It seems to me the answer is manifold. For one thing, as I wrote earlier I am in no spirit to die or be maimed or caged for the sake of men unworthy of such a sacrifice, and the vast majority of Americans are nowhere nearly worthy of even a chipped finger nail. Look at the death of Finicum. A good man, gunned down in cold blood by instruments of the "state". What has America done in response, beyond wailing and gnashing its teeth in a few isolated corners for a week or maybe two? Nothing. He gave his life for people who deserve nothing better than the servitude to which they have acceded.

We've lost whatever edge we ever held. The meaner is a coward and I will not die for him.

So that leaves most of us sitting and waiting for someone else to make the move. That is not likely to happen, not to mention that it is a REALLY $#@!ty way to go about this whole thing. There should be people reaching out to one another and establishing that principled base of values. Once we agree on what is right and wrong, we go into more detail as to how the post-slavery world would look and teach each other how to be brave and accept the costs that are part and parcel with the benefits we seek. This is probably the singly greatest hurdle to be surmounted.

And after that, we plan - openly. No conspiracies, and few secrets, if any. Let it be out there for anyone to see. "That's right, this is who we are and this is our goal. We will have it by hook or by crook. We do not want to harm anyone, but will kill to the man anyone who attempts to stop us from living as Freemen." And from this, accrete fellow travelers through the attraction of leading by example. We are openly armed, growing, and coming to the day when the ultimatum will be put before the rest: back off or risk the extermination of your stupid-burdened gene pool. You leave is alone. We leave you alone. Or something in that general vein.

Disagree. "Working with what we've got" got us to where we're at. We're well past the point of working with what we've got. What we've got is a goddammed mess that ain't salvageable, and ain't worth salvaging.

Not sure, but me suspects you have misinterpreted my meaning there. By "working with what we've got", I mean the lesser men on our side. They are not quite so brave. They are not quite so principled. They are not quite equipped and willing to tread the clean path because they fear the risks. Therefore, we use them in the ways we are able, adapting the strategy and tactics to their strengths, which I assume means making the distasteful, yet necessary decision to use deceit and compromise to take Tiger Mountain by piecemeal strategy.

We don't have legions of courageous warriors, but we do have men of still good, if lesser, character. They are a perhaps better than nothing... that is, if we can get them to move, which at this point remains in serious doubt.

What they actually are, are a bunch of well-intended feels-goods-ers, who've bought, ate and swallowed a sugar-laden jug of bilge water, peddled on their inexperience, virtue, and ignorance. There is a thin layer at the top of pond scum, to be sure, but the rank and file are actually pretty decent people.

Far worse than that. They are tyrants. They are indecent. They are self-absorbed and willing to see you and your children murdered for the sake of making the world a "kinder and gentler" place. They are the very definitions of hypocrisy, ignorance, disrespect, and just about every other vile human quality.

A decent man of good intentions recognizes the limits of those designs and retains his respect for others. Those willing to put others not on board with the agenda of their good intentions are evil. Good intentions count for nothing when the outcomes are evil.

Explain it to me, then... because I don't.

You're unwilling to die for subhuman chud. Who could blame you?

Again, I couldn't agree with you more, other than to say that none of us will get up off of our asses until our asses become uncomfortable.

Humans.

What that amounts to is another little pile on the mountain our lineage will climb. I look at my son and I'm ashamed for handing off to him what I'm afraid to face. Maybe he'll do the same with his kid. Maybe his kid will do the same. Someday, someone is gonna pay the piper.

Im not afraid to face it - I just don't want to do it alone. At this point, I'm feeling very alone.

[Raginfridus]

I'm not a coward for staying out of his way:

[acptulsa]

It's not just Trump, Ron's retirement took a lot of air out of the movement, he deserves his retirement but for too many people it was the RON Paul movement, Rand just hasn't been able to inspire people the way Ron did even though he has had more of an impact on legislation, we need a "leader" type for the sheep to follow, preferably one that is even more inspirational than Ron was.

Ron Paul is no leader, really. Which is fine, because a leader is not what is needed. A leader is needed to build something. Few follow 'leaders' to destroy something. But I think we can all agree that Washington, D.C. is built. It is too built. It is that house that has been added onto, and added onto, and added onto, and the core is rotting and termite-ridden, and the west wing is built on a slab which is sinking into the clay, and the east wing was built in the era when insulation was considered unnecessary, and the north wing is infested by squatters that got title in the homestead act because it was never necessary and none of the rightful owners ever used it, and the south wing has bats in the attic, and nothing needs to be built. Ninety percent of it needs to be destroyed. Now, how does someone fill all the classical characteristics of a 'leader' and inspire people to wield sledgehammers and wrecking balls and dynamite and tear something down?

The best president we had in the last hundred years was nobody's idea of a 'leader' then or now. Calvin Coolidge bore in a good-natured manner the wags and wits claiming he wasn't doing anything, while he cut taxes in a scientific manner meant to propel the economy and stoutly resisted to the detriment of his image and his health a Congress hungry to expand their power--every single day. And the public thanked and honored and praised him for it, and when he retired, his party nominated the most progressive 'natural leader' of an idiot in the whole party, and he got elected and short-circuited the whole freaking thing. A leader? We don't need a leader. That's one if our biggest handicaps. What we need is someone who can convince the sheep he or she is a leader, but is in fact a regressor.

I've thought for a long time that there needs to be some type of restriction on voting privileges.

But that, of course, is a non-starter. And it isn't even necessarily desirable. There are people ho make a lot of money who will happily vote for the government to do stupid stuff, especially when they are government contractors. And there are poor people who would be entrepreneurs if only entrepreneurship were still legal, but nowadays the barriers to entry are too high. No, this is not only too broad a brush to use to paint voters with, sweeping out good voters and sweeping in bad voters, but merely mentioning it makes us unpopular as hell. Bad plan.

I wish I had a better answer for you, I do what I can and you have been doing what you can as have others in the movement but those who have the capacity to do more (individually or collectively) have generally failed to do so and the sheeple have failed almost entirely to listen.

At this point I wish for incremental improvement from Trump and others who are better than what we have been getting or even from Rand and the handful of true liberty torchbearers we have but even if that hope is fulfilled it will yield little and take a long time to do so, the only other possible catalysts for improvement are a reset event or a "messiah", someone for the sheeple to follow because of his overwhelming charisma until they become used to walking the path of freedom out of habit and have absorbed the philosophy along with the charm, he would need to be pure enough to satisfy the purists and inspire robust activity on their part and he would need to achieve sufficient power to palpably improve conditions in the country so that we would have more money to spend on the movement and the sheeple would credit liberty for the prosperity.
The reset event seems more likely.

Puh-lease. If being incrementalized into fascism by Trump is the best we can do, then yeah, the only way we're going to get where the nation needs to be is through blood in the streets. Trump is making quite a show of making baby steps in the right direction in one or two areas, while taking giant strides in the wrong direction everywhere else. Getting all purist snobbish about Rand while this charlatan stole all the discontent in the last election was our major fail. Trump isn't even cutting regulations--he's cutting the growth of regulations. We are still going in exactly the wrong direction on every front, and you trolls are bleating giddily about how big an improvement it is because instead of going straight to Hell at sixty miles per, we're going straight to Hell at forty miles per hour. And even that is a lie. We're still going to Hell at sixty per, and you $#@!s are telling us we are civilization's saviors because Hillary would have us up to ninety-to-nothin' by now. If we allow ourselves to be pacified by that, we deserve our shackles, because we are the biggest suckers on the face of the earth.

This is exactly how partisanship has gotten us to this place, in action, the very textbook in action before your lying eyes. Republicans have not held their party accountable because the other party is worse. We used to eat meat, but the other party went vegetarian, so now we content ourselves with gnawing at the bone like the dogs we are. And the more you trolls tell us we achieved something by slowing the decline a tiny bit, the less meat and marrow is left on our little bone. There's no point in even burying it any more.

$#@! Trump. I'm not sucking on that pacifier like the cucks you partisan so-called conservatives are.

No thoughts on finding common ground with the Left I suppose? I don't think they're all freeloading scumbags or something.

We can cooperate when they are on the right side of an issue, that's about one time in a thousand.

Got news, Einstein. Republicans are on the right side of the issues about one time in a thousand, too.

It seems to be escaping the notice of many of us, but this movement was gutted by Bernie Sanders. People are hungry for some genuine change, not ObamaChange (TM), but the real thing. And they ain't particularly particular about where it comes from. They'll take it from Obama, if he'd only not do to them what Trump is doing to us--keep us hoping for change and give us jack $#@!. They'll take it from Bernie, if only they can make the Democratic party democratic enough to give them the candidate they nominated, instead of superdelegates. They'll take it however they can get it, and if they can't get it, they'll lower their standards and try again. And the only reason we haven't fixed them up is because we refuse to admit they have a right to get the kind of change they want, and give it to them. A few of us tried to, but Ron Paul did not emphasize it, and most of us didn't either. Instead we had Paul preaching theory, and Matt Collins screeching that we dared not even talk to Democrats during the primaries because some partisan Republicans might notice, and we didn't tell the majority the truth that would have won them over.

We sit here in the midst of a partisan divide and conquer campaign knowing it is being manufactured by people who want to keep us divided so they can conquer us, and we are cooperating with that! We let people like Swordsmyth come on this site, a site which, before he ever signed up for it, was full of people who had voted Democrat often because of civil liberties and the Republican ramrodding of the war on drugs and the Patriot Act, and we let them make us afraid to even try to talk to real-world Democrat voters. Oh, sure, we try to type out reasonable arguments on the internet, like we did very effectively in 2008, and that all gets deleted within minutes and our Twit accounts get locked. But in the real world we are afraid to approach anyone for fear of the screeching. But the fact is, they are receptive.

The mistake we make is in execution. People have a right to a government which helps homeless schizophrenics out. People have a right to that. We are wrong to say they are wrong for that. We can argue all day that someone who's merely bipolar can be useful, sure. And we can make the case that the less government we have, the more hungry the thriving private sector will be for labor, and the more willing it will be in a strong economy to make allowances for imperfect humans in a workforce. But when it comes to those schizophrenics, when it comes to the most unfortunate of the unfortunates, instead of telling people, 'We libertarians say $#@! 'em!' maybe we should be saying instead, 'The reason government can no longer care for them and they're littering the streets is because this stuff used to be done at the county level, and now Washington tries to do it. Washington cannot do it. When counties did it, if they failed, voters could actually clean county government out and get people in who can do the job. For whatever reason, history has taught us we cannot clean Washington out for incompetence. So, clearly, we need to tell Washington, cut yourself to the bone and cut our taxes so we can fund our counties and let them do it.'

This does not alienate rank-and-file, real world Democrats. Indeed, it serves as a ray of hope for them. At last, someone has figured out a way to 'put the right people in charge of government', as they say over and over! Send people to Washington with the clear message of, cut it or get sent home, and free up funds for county taxes so county government can do what you want done! And if county government doesn't do it, you can actually reach your county government to choke them and slap them and fire them as needed.

The powers that be use our purity against us. They used our purity to turn real world voters against us, because we didn't scream, 'If you want that done, let your county or your town do it! If you expect Washington to do it and not make a hash of it, you're fools!' Instead, we screamed, 'We don't want it done!' when we'd have been better off admitting that the majority does want it done. And they turned our purity against us by causing us to judge Rand Paul by an unrealistic standard, and we wound up settling for a pacifier to suck on in the form of Donald Trump's dick which isn't even trying to stop going the wrong way and go the right way. Oh, he slowed the decline. We're still going the wrong way, but at forty instead of sixty. Yay. What great revolutionaries we are. We may not have saved the world, but at least we might get to keep our noses above water a few extra weeks. Yeah, let's break our arms patting ourselves on our backs.

The thing we tried just enough to prove it does work, but which we have not held our noses and tackled wholeheartedly, is our only hope. We need to say, if you want it done, fine, but let your county do it. It is not only not Washington's job, but Washington is $#@!ing it up, and Washington has always $#@!ed it up, and Washington will always $#@! it up. Send libertarians to Washington to cut it down to the size of Ottumwah, Iowa, so we can afford to pay our cities and counties to do what we want government to do!

99% of what Washington does that we actually want done, outside of bombing brown babies and freeing up (and subsidizing) Wall Street gambling games, it does not do. It takes our money, skims a fat slice off the top, and gives it back to our counties if and only if our counties jump through Washington's hoops. All this plan means, effectively, is cutting out the middleman. Cut federal taxes so local taxes can be raised, and let local, accountable government do the job instead of letting Washington stick their dirty fingers in the pie. The only reason anyone ever let Washington play in the first place was because we figured Washington would move a little from rich states to poor states. Fact is, one of the many ways Washington screws up is it actually robs the poor states and gives to the rich states. But mostly, it skims enough that nobody gets as much out as we all put in. Get Washington out of it. Get WASHINGTON, not all government, but WASHINGTON out of it.

That is a pitch which will work. And unless and until we sell that pitch, we commit ourselves to that pitch, we admit that the Ninth and Tenth Amendments guarantee that people can have just as much socialism as they want on the local level of government, unless and until we bend just enough to say government is not the enemy, Washington, D.C. is the enemy, we are screwed and useless and going nowhere. That is a pitch that will work. If we're too pure and lily-white to adopt a strategy that will work, then we're paper tigers who are easily defeated, and we're just sitting here screwing ourselves.

Damn. I got as long-winded as osan. Well, I hope I actually said something productive, anyway.

[A Son of Liberty]

Not sure we are necessarily cowards.

First let me start by apologizing for saying that you are a coward... I am a coward... but there's no way I could reasonably know your heart, sir, and I do apologize for that comment. I think you weren't too offended by that comment... still, in re-reading it, it was poorly phrased.

Proving a coward is one of the very few things I fear in this life. I have expressed this concern to one of my closest friends on several occasions. I have considered my death almost every day of my life since I was about 14. Many would call this "morbid", but it has nothing to do with that brand of fixation. It has everything to do with my perplexity regarding... well, everything. My point with this is that all my training as a warrior, all forty seven years of it to date, has been devoted to the cultivation of personal power - real power and not the sorts that mean men covet - which in its highest form is power over oneself. One aspect of this revolves around the issue of one's courage. When I was 15, in my last year at military school, I'd acquired a false driver's license that said I was eighteen, skipped campus, and went with two other fellows to the Toms River recruiting office. My intention was to become UDT/SEAL. Of course we were cold-busted by the county deputy as we filled out paperwork. But the key here was that even in those days this was a really big deal for me. Nothing in this world reviles me as does a coward. No idea why, but along with child rapists they are the most hideous forms of life in the universe. This is obviously a very personal problem.

I wouldn't refer to it as a 'problem', were I you.

That all said, I would like to think that I am not a coward. But why, then, do I not take some materially significant action? It seems to me the answer is manifold. For one thing, as I wrote earlier I am in no spirit to die or be maimed or caged for the sake of men unworthy of such a sacrifice, and the vast majority of Americans are nowhere nearly worthy of even a chipped finger nail. Look at the death of Finicum. A good man, gunned down in cold blood by instruments of the "state". What has America done in response, beyond wailing and gnashing its teeth in a few isolated corners for a week or maybe two? Nothing. He gave his life for people who deserve nothing better than the servitude to which they have acceded.

We've lost whatever edge we ever held. The meaner is a coward and I will not die for him.

Here I'll speak only for myself rather than lumping in anyone else as I have previously... I agree with what you say and would have said it myself were as eloquent as you. And had I said it, I'd be left with the reality that, though it is TRUE, my own condition is not in any way improved by the veracity of the statement. I AM A FREE MAN. As are we all. There is a break in the logic... we depend on those around us for our own freedom. They aren't worth action. Few are. I'm not, if I'm honest with myself.

I think at the end of the day the plinko chip ends up falling to the reality that inaction is 'consent'. It bounces off of turds all the way to that inevitable bottom. I hate that about myself. I know that ultimately since I own my life, knowing that my actions would be fruitless, broadly speaking, is inconsequential. This is the Way of the Warrior. I know that. I've studied that art. Yet here I sit. This is why I consider myself a coward.

I'm really just putting on public display an internal dialogue no one really needs to hear...

So that leaves most of us sitting and waiting for someone else to make the move. That is not likely to happen, not to mention that it is a REALLY $#@!ty way to go about this whole thing. There should be people reaching out to one another and establishing that principled base of values. Once we agree on what is right and wrong, we go into more detail as to how the post-slavery world would look and teach each other how to be brave and accept the costs that are part and parcel with the benefits we seek. This is probably the singly greatest hurdle to be surmounted.

There just aren't enough of us.

And that doesn't resolve the issue of my own personal obligation to Truth.

I can live with that for now. As long as they give us just enough to be comfortable. I want to take the red pill, but I know that I would take the blue pill.

I will say for myself that I'm no Cypher... I wouldn't serve up another to save my own ass. I'm not afraid to die. Not for that. I just know that at this point in my life, I'm comfortable being comfortable.

And after that, we plan - openly. No conspiracies, and few secrets, if any. Let it be out there for anyone to see. "That's right, this is who we are and this is our goal. We will have it by hook or by crook. We do not want to harm anyone, but will kill to the man anyone who attempts to stop us from living as Freemen." And from this, accrete fellow travelers through the attraction of leading by example. We are openly armed, growing, and coming to the day when the ultimatum will be put before the rest: back off or risk the extermination of your stupid-burdened gene pool. You leave is alone. We leave you alone. Or something in that general vein.

Yes. Yes. I hate to say it, but I would be all-in, if I recognized a winner.

It's so hard to reconcile that with what I know is right.

Not sure, but me suspects you have misinterpreted my meaning there. By "working with what we've got", I mean the lesser men on our side. They are not quite so brave. They are not quite so principled. They are not quite equipped and willing to tread the clean path because they fear the risks. Therefore, we use them in the ways we are able, adapting the strategy and tactics to their strengths, which I assume means making the distasteful, yet necessary decision to use deceit and compromise to take Tiger Mountain by piecemeal strategy.

We don't have legions of courageous warriors, but we do have men of still good, if lesser, character. They are a perhaps better than nothing... that is, if we can get them to move, which at this point remains in serious doubt.

Indeed. Stasis is as powerful a force as inertia.

Far worse than that. They are tyrants. They are indecent. They are self-absorbed and willing to see you and your children murdered for the sake of making the world a "kinder and gentler" place. They are the very definitions of hypocrisy, ignorance, disrespect, and just about every other vile human quality.

A decent man of good intentions recognizes the limits of those designs and retains his respect for others. Those willing to put others not on board with the agenda of their good intentions are evil. Good intentions count for nothing when the outcomes are evil.

Fairly stated. I think there's a distinction to be made between 'willful' and 'involuntary'. Outcomes are the same, no doubt. Intent does have weight, in my book.

This is only a recent revelation. It also helps me deal with those around me.

You're unwilling to die for subhuman chud. Who could blame you?

What is unspoken in this statement is that I'm also unwilling to die for myself. That, ultimately, should be the measuring stick. Outcomes are not ordained.

It's probably too early in the morning for me to hash out the ratio between principle and practicality.

Humans.

Im not afraid to face it - I just don't want to do it alone. At this point, I'm feeling very alone.

I fully understand, and agree.

[A Son of Liberty]

I hope I actually said something productive, anyway.

You did, sir.

[Madison320]

But that, of course, is a non-starter. And it isn't even necessarily desirable. There are people ho make a lot of money who will happily vote for the government to do stupid stuff, especially when they are government contractors. And there are poor people who would be entrepreneurs if only entrepreneurship were still legal, but nowadays the barriers to entry are too high. No, this is not only too broad a brush to use to paint voters with, sweeping out good voters and sweeping in bad voters, but merely mentioning it makes us unpopular as hell. Bad plan.

I'm not sure the best way to implement it but one thing I am 100% sure of. If person A is forced at gunpoint to contribute millions of dollars and person B is doing nothing but receiving stolen goods, there's no way in hell they should get equally weighted votes. It's an obvious, fundamental flaw in the system and it was pointed out over and over by the founding fathers and many other great leaders of liberty.

Maybe I didn't read it very carefully but as far as I can tell your solution only involves talking and no actual structural change.

[acptulsa]

I notice the partisan trolls are now avoiding this thread like the plague. Lay down a real gauntlet, and neither the ostensibly Democrat trolls nor the ostensibly Republican trolls can pick it up. Let forum slide take care of it, right?

Has anyone even listened to Democrats lately? Or have we just seen the bizarre freakshow that the media tells us is what Democrats are up to, and made no effort to listen to the silent majority of Democrats at whom mainstream media microphones are never aimed? Well, just as the media aims their cameras at racists and say, this is the Republicans, when we all know Republicans who don't fit the description, so the media aims their cameras at the Democrats they know are most likely to repel and repulse anyone with a conservative bone in their body. But the truth is, most Democrats consider them as freaky as we do.

Let me tell you what Democrats are saying these days. They're saying they're disgusted that the party shoved Clinton and her massive baggage down their throats, a candidate so terrible that she allowed a candidate as terrible as Trump to win. They're saying that they feel they should be protesting because they find Trump reprehensible, but they're having trouble finding anything to protest. After all, Trump is continuing Dubya's wars, but only because he inherited them from eight years of Obama failing to end them. The plight of poor people, poor people 'of color' and otherwise, is not improving, but it didn't improve under Obama either. They didn't rock the boat when Obama was in office because Obama was in office, and they felt like they 'had a seat at the table.' But now under Trump nothing has changed, really, and they're having a hard time complaining about how they no longer feel they have a 'seat at the table' when they accomplished exactly nothing during their eight years of feeling they had one.

And the trolls, the same trolls who make us look like racists by filling this forum with their collectivism, their all immigrants are socialists, their all immigrants are criminals, their rampant collectivist blanket statements, are telling us we have nothing in common with any of these "Demoncrats". But we are no more Republicans than we are Democrats. The Nolan Chart shows us with certainty we have no more in common with the "Right" than the "Left". When the Establishment, or the "Deep State", or whatever you want to call the Powers that Be screw us, they screw us in a bipartisan manner. When we get screwed, it's always a bipartisan effort. Do we really think we can successfully fight them in a partisan manner? Do we really think the only way to bet the enemy is to divide ourselves, to spurn our natural allies, before we even take the field of battle?

No. If we're going to win this fight, we're going to have to make it just as bipartisan an effort as the PATRIOT Act vote was.

I'm not sure the best way to implement it but one thing I am 100% sure of. If person A is forced at gunpoint to contribute millions of dollars and person B is doing nothing but receiving stolen goods, there's no way in hell they should get equally weighted votes. It's an obvious, fundamental flaw in the system and it was pointed out over and over by the founding fathers and many other great leaders of liberty.

Maybe I didn't read it very carefully but as far as I can tell your solution only involves talking and no actual structural change.

The shrinking of Washington, the movement of power out of the Beltway and back to our county seats where we can do something about graft and ineffectiveness, the uniting of the populace against Washington, is a major structural change. It's a seismic shift. It moves the very Earth under our feet.

And Democrats are low-hanging fruit right now. They are ripe for the picking. Seeing Trump pick up right where Dubya left off after eight years of Obama, seeing how rallying around Bernie only got them screwed with Bernie's blessing, has them realizing that "their party" in no way belongs to them--just as the Republican Party in no way belongs to libertarians (or any other part of the hoi polloi).

Is there something to be said for excluding tax ticks from the voter rolls? Sure. But you know what? Many of them are there temporarily, or hope the economy rebounds someday so they can make their 'tax tick' status temporary. Many Democrats see them as people temporarily getting help, rather than professional sponges. Many people on both sides of the aisle see many government functionaries as gainfully employed, productive people even if government doesn't actually produce anything. Changing these attitudes is a long term project which would be easier to accomplish if our students were our allies, not our adversaries.

In the short term, the message which will serve us best, which will open hearts and minds to our message and get us allies for the battle which is already underway, is, it's okay to give up on Washington, even if you see legitimate roles for government, because you have a government right there in your county seat right now, and it's the government that is actually doing the heavy lifting. All Washington id doing is taking a cut and dreaming up new hoops for your county government to jump through before Washington returns (some of) your own taxes to your own community. Washington is a big, fat middleman. Europe used to be held up as an example of how socialism can work, but that was when Europe was a bunch of local nations. Ever since the European Union was formed, it has looked more like the Soviet Union every single day. Simply put, all politics is local, and the sooner we realize the truth of that, the sooner we can rid ourselves of these tyrants in Washington and go with something that proved long ago it works better than this.

Their war against us is bipartisan. Party divides us, not them, and that divide serves them, not us. Democrats are "out", they are disaffected, they know full well they have neither house of Congress nor the presidency--and much as they hate that, they are actually noticing that nothing has changed. They are ripe for our advances. And if we're to win this war against us, we had better stop listening to these partisan trolls and realize that only a bipartisan offense will work.

Bottom line.

We are indeed awfully deep into the kimchee now, as you say.

So, is the thing to do to look around for someone who might give us a hand out of the deep kimchee, and before asking for that hand, check their voter registration card?

[angelatc]

The plight of poor people, poor people 'of color' and otherwise, is not improving, but it didn't improve under Obama either.

Using what criteria?

[acptulsa]

Using what criteria?

Gee, how nice to see someone on an increasingly partisan site assuming that Democrats actually use criteria.

I didn't check. Go ask them yourself. They may surprise you. They may not only have criteria, but it might be sound criteria.

And if we do them the courtesy of actually listening to them, who knows? They might just listen to us when we explain how the Federal Reserve is screwing everyone, with absolutely no consideration as to race at all.

[angelatc]

Gee, how nice to see someone on an increasingly partisan site assuming that Democrats actually use criteria.

I didn't check. Go ask them yourself. They may surprise you. They may not only have criteria, but it might be sound criteria.

And if we do them the courtesy of actually listening to them, who knows? They might just listen to us when we explain how the Federal Reserve is screwing everyone, with absolutely no consideration as to race at all.

OK, now I'm with you. Never mind!

[A Son of Liberty]

So, is the thing to do to look around for someone who might give us a hand out of the deep kimchee, and before asking for that hand, check their voter registration card?

No. Obivously not. Labels mean $#@!-all, for starters. And for seconds I'm not wallowing in the kimchee looking for a hand out.

Here's the thing - you make a lot of sense, but until we stop talking about left-and-right, democrats-and-republicans, conservatives-and-liberals... nothing is going to change. I think that's pretty much what you were saying, by the by... But - again - we're holding back the ocean with a broom, as I've said. I'm not saying don't fight. I'm just letting you know the odds.

[acptulsa]

No. Obivously not. Labels mean $#@!-all, for starters. And for seconds I'm not wallowing in the kimchee looking for a hand out.

Here's the thing - you make a lot of sense, but until we stop talking about left-and-right, democrats-and-republicans, conservatives-and-liberals... nothing is going to change. I think that's pretty much what you were saying, by the by... But - again - we're holding back the ocean with a broom, as I've said. I'm not saying don't fight. I'm just letting you know the odds.

I know the odds. I have voted for Ron Paul for president in the general election, in November. For those who don't know what that means, the only November when it was possible to vote for Ron Paul for president (without writing him in) was the autumn of 1988.

I see how effective the propaganda machine has become, I know how silly most voters are. I have been tilting at this windmill for over thirty years.

But that perspective tells me something else, too. Never have our odds been better than they are now. Yes, the odds against us are towering. But I remember when they were astronomical.

[A Son of Liberty]

I know the odds. I have voted for Ron Paul for president in the general election, in November. For those who don't know what that means, the only November when it was possible to vote for Ron Paul for president (without writing him in) was the autumn of 1988.

I see how effective the propaganda machine has become, I know how silly most voters are. I have been tilting at this windmill for over thirty years.

But that perspective tells me something else, too. Never have our odds been better than they are now. Yes, the odds against us are towering. But I remember when they were astronomical.

Distance to Pluto vs. distance to Neptune. Meh :shrug: And we're flying in an open-cab.

Sorry, just feeling more cynical than normal at the moment. Which is particularly depressing, considering.

[acptulsa]

Distance to Pluto vs. distance to Neptune. Meh :shrug: And we're flying in an open-cab.

Sorry, just feeling more cynical than normal at the moment. Which is particularly depressing, considering.

Not without reason. But the plan showed some real promise during 2012, long before the DNC openly stole the Democrats' primary right out from under them with superdelegates.

In any case, I don't have a better one. And it appears the powers that be think it has some promise, too. If the prospect didn't scare them even a little, would they be flooding this site with partisan hack trolls, sent to demonize the "Demoncrats", in an obvious effort to nip it in the bud?

In any case, we might as well talk to Democrats for a while. So long as the sitting president has an R next to his name, the Republicans are going to believe Fox every time it says the government is throwing them a bone--even if they never, in fact, see any actual bones.

If you don't believe me, go review dannno's posts.

[Madison320]

The shrinking of Washington, the movement of power out of the Beltway and back to our county seats where we can do something about graft and ineffectiveness, the uniting of the populace against Washington, is a major structural change. It's a seismic shift. It moves the very Earth under our feet.

How specifically? Secession? Get rid of direct elections at the federal level? I'm all for moving power back to the local level, but what are the steps?

[acptulsa]

How specifically? Secession? Get rid of direct elections at the federal level? I'm all for moving power back to the local level, but what are the steps?

Obviously the first step is to get a majority of Americans to agree that Washington is the problem, and there are alternatives. As a second step...



There are no shortage of trigger events to cause people to want to wash their hands of Washington, D.C. lately.

[Root]

I missed 2008 and I regret that now. 2012 RNC taught me that the nomination process is a sham. 2018 was a real eye opener though. I feel lost in what remains of the liberty movement today. Maybe it’s living in NJ, but I don’t think so. I hardly watch Ron’s liberty reports anymore and my best connection to other liberty minded folks is right here. $#@!, it’s been over a year since I’ve shot a gun.

Ron may not have been the leader liberty needed, but I thought he was a pretty good figurehead.

[presence]

Sacrificing oneself
on the alter of artificial constructs,
whether state or deity,
leads to horrors.

nice

[osan]

First let me start by apologizing for saying that you are a coward... I am a coward... but there's no way I could reasonably know your heart, sir, and I do apologize for that comment. I think you weren't too offended by that comment... still, in re-reading it, it was poorly phrased.

I took no umbrage, believing I understand your point. Perhaps it could have been better composed in words, but that's a detail. None of us are stepping up, and IMO that is a real problem. Mr Finicum stepped up, and paid dearly. As if that were not bad enough, none of us have risen to his cause. I must therefore begin that journey toward the conclusion that we are not really serious about all that of which we speak.

That is pretty sad.

Here I'll speak only for myself rather than lumping in anyone else as I have previously... I agree with what you say and would have said it myself were as eloquent as you. And had I said it, I'd be left with the reality that, though it is TRUE, my own condition is not in any way improved by the veracity of the statement. I AM A FREE MAN. As are we all. There is a break in the logic... we depend on those around us for our own freedom. They aren't worth action. Few are. I'm not, if I'm honest with myself.

We depend upon each other to be on the same page such that our freedoms are maintained. Otherwise, any superorganized group either becomes the new tyrant or allows for his rise.

Corner = "tight".

I think at the end of the day the plinko chip ends up falling to the reality that inaction is 'consent'. It bounces off of turds all the way to that inevitable bottom. I hate that about myself. I know that ultimately since I own my life, knowing that my actions would be fruitless, broadly speaking, is inconsequential. This is the Way of the Warrior. I know that. I've studied that art. Yet here I sit. This is why I consider myself a coward.

I understand this well, methinks. I have opined similarly to that same friend to which I earlier referred and he, being 11 years my elder, has advised that at this time the best thing is to wait and watch. On the one hand I can agree, but I also believe that a massive and open conspiracy would be playing out. Cellular revolution. The identification of base principles; the derivation of the basics of proper human relations; the validation of that body of knowledge for completeness, correctness, and clarity; the dissemination and training of mind and body in that knowledge to anyone willing to listen and learn. That knowledge, in sufficient dispersion and depth, leads to widely separated localities coming to the same conclusions and prepping the same long-term plans. Those are things we CAN do today, yet are not.

At the risk of sounding like I'm gone 'round the bend, I have done a great portion of the heavy lifting from which the entire world could benefit. God, that reads like raving insanity, but I don't know how else to characterize it. I've worked out the formalities of an objective basis for human freedom. It's there in foiggin' black and white for anyone on the planet to read, copy, wipe their butts with, or what have you. It's there, it's real, it's correct. Not sure it is quite complete, but it is close - perhaps close enough. And yet, so far as I know, not a single other human being anywhere on the planet has so much as considered taking it to the next level of development. Perhaps it is because I am an idiot, or deeply psychotic in thinking I've devised something that I really have not. But either I have completely lost my marbles or the human race is in even worse shape than I ever dared think.

A truly depressing thing here is that the architecting of the Plan is something of virtually zero risk. All it requires is the will to participate and contribute to the ideas. Look at Bryan's project along these lines. It started off well enough and so far as I can tell, has fizzled. We cannot blame this on fear of death. It is fear of work, and shame on us.

I've offered the world what I can give in those terms. I'm even willing to go a step farther, but I'm not that smart and need others off of whom to bounce ideas. I am too small to do it completely alone. Even one other would be helpful, but the well appears to be dry. And to I thank my stars I am 60 and pray I will not last much longer, in spite of my family being a raft of long-lived sorts. The world with it dully consistent nastiness is become boring almost beyond my tolerance.

[Bryan]

So, what is the plan? That is NOT a rhetorical question.

Mission
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957

[r3volution 3.0]

Mission

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957

Good to see you Bryan

[osan]

Mission
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957

I remember. Recall I threw in with it, but it seemed to go quiet.

[wizardwatson]

Analysis Paralysis.

I've submitted numerous plans, and numerous ideas. I'm going to submit some more. I even submitted a very detailed analysis of Bryan's "Knowledge Base" initiative and outlined ways to accomplish and improve upon it.

I created Metric Reserve, a community banking prototype, that offers a blueprint for a Federal Reserve alternative in support of the "End the Fed" initiative.

First Problem: You can't do anything without knowing who people are. I've said this numerous times. Anonymity is an organizational killer. It promotes anti-social behavior and online exhibitionism where people would rather gaze at their online personas getting attention rather than their real world self being held accountable.

Second Problem: You DO need leaders and you DO need to have defined goals that are attainable. Electing Ron Paul was defined and attainable. Extremely low probability, but it was defined and technically attainable. Leaders are not "bosses". That's another problem with the libertarian snowflake self-image as "liberated souls in need of no authority". That's bullcrap you tell yourselves. Real "leaders" are public servants. SERVANTS TO ALL. You could all be leaders, but you don't want to lead because you don't want to do work. You wanna yap and yap, rationalize laziness, and also make each other feel good about doing nothing, "Cuz, it's just too late. Gotta wait for apocalyptic reset. Then I'll be motivated because of all that leadership opportunity!"

That's a bunch of
Hippy
Dippy
Bologna.

Broken window fallacy on the political level. "Destroying civilization great for advancing civilization!"

Your "goal" in a breakdown of civil order isn't going to be teaching your neighbor the fine points of Austrian Economics over a cup of local wine and some hydroponic ganja. It's going to be finding safe drinking water, keeping yourself from being killed, the womenfolk from being raped, and the children from being eaten.

If you are a Christian who believes in the coming millenial kingdom, you should also be working NOW. Whether you live through the apocalypse or wake up during the first resurrection, you are still going to have to build and create a better world. You also have no excuse to be making these silly arguments about hopelessness and "we've lost".

Plans, and bullet points are great. But you can also spend to much time planning and consensus building and then get burnt out. By all means, brainstorm, get some ideas on paper. If someone says "let's do this" out of available options, either do it yourself, help them do it, give them money to do it, if you have no money ENCOURAGE them to do it, but please stop this defeatist whinge fest "there's no hope!" "it's impossible!" "We'll never win!" "It's over!" to cover up your apathetic hopelessness faithless depression that you are sunk in that makes every excuse in the world as to why the best path is not doing a dang thing.

It's dishonest. "I don't know." "I'm lost." "I feel like I've lost hope". Those are honest.

Action. Plans must have associated action. Defined and attainable. Defined and manageable in scope and with available means to actually achieve the goals.

Get your head out of politics and into real world economic goals. Do something simple. A moneybomb to buy local economically depressed real estate that's managed by a libertarian oriented real estate trust (I'm working a plan along these lines and future plans for metric.)

And lose the anonymity. You don't really have privacy. If you want privacy "online", why the hell are you posting stuff online? Methinks, you are unaware of what the internet even is.

[aravoth]

So my question, then, is whether there is ANYTHING that will transform this from bowel movement into a real movement worth a $#@!.

Yes.

Your "goal" in a breakdown of civil order isn't going to be teaching your neighbor the fine points of Austrian Economics over a cup of local wine and some hydroponic ganja. It's going to be finding safe drinking water, keeping yourself from being killed, the womenfolk from being raped, and the children from being eaten.

A breakdown of order typically results in the population demanding more assistance from a regime that is far more oppressive than its predecessor.

[osan]

Yes.

When I asked the question, perhaps I should have made clear that I meant in practical terms and not principle. Principle is a relative triviality. Getting people to act is a whole other pot of kimchee.

[wizardwatson]

A breakdown of order typically results in the population demanding more assistance from a regime that is far more oppressive than its predecessor.

Exactly.

[aravoth]

When I asked the question, perhaps I should have made clear that I meant in practical terms and not principle. Principle is a relative triviality. Getting people to act is a whole other pot of kimchee.

Politics has nothing to do with priciples. In order to accomplish a wide spread acceptance of libertarian ideals, this movement would have to swallow a rather large helping of pride and principle, several times.

It's very difficult for honest people to compromise the principles that they have used to build the foundation of their very lives on.

[thoughtomator]

The disempowerment of libertarianism is the direct result of a) support for open borders and b) support for corrupt foreign trade practices.

We had plenty of momentum until the saboteurs within our movement made those priority items on the agenda, when it has been clear for a long time that the will of the people is the precise opposite of those policies.

[thoughtomator]

The disempowerment of libertarianism is the direct result of a) support for open borders and b) support for corrupt foreign trade practices.

We had plenty of momentum until the saboteurs within our movement made those priority items on the agenda, when it has been clear for a long time that the will of the people is the precise opposite of those policies.

So my question, then, is whether there is ANYTHING that will transform this from bowel movement into a real movement worth a $#@!.

I could, but after what I've seen go down here from the 2016 election onwards, I have no desire to empower individuals who have no loyalty to their countrymen and mostly aren't libertarians anyway, but Communists LARPing as anarchists. Seriously, why would I empower you people at all? What have you done to deserve that power? It would be beyond irresponsible for me to lend aid to people who cannot even control their own excess of pride, and are generally no better qualified to make policy calls than any random person you could pick out of a phone book.