Apparent Paradox ?

[pcosmar]

Apparent Paradox or Contradictions ?
I do not think that the bible contradicts itself. It does not.
And I am further convinced that any apparent contradictions are simply a misunderstanding..

The concept of Trinity is one such that folks stumble at,, Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,, all as one God.
Simple to those that believe.

another is the Predestination/Free Will paradox. It seems to be difficult for some to grasp..but I see no paradox.
They both flow together seamlessly,, being the Will of God.

It is my belief that the whole known bible (even without removed books),, balances itself. It still carries the message of salvation and redemption,, and food for spiritual growth.

Personally I think much of the division comes from old errors,, and as people discover truth,, some hold on to and teach the error.
and mostly about the mechanics of (or their misunderstanding of) things they barely understand.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There is NO Paradox, though it may appear so through a glass darkly.

Free Will and Predestination Coexist Seamlessly .

[Sola_Fide]

The Bible doesn't teach that man has a free will. It teaches that man has an enslaved will, a will enslaved to sin.

The idea that man can frustrate the will of a sovereign God is a contradiction, and contradictions don't exist.

[acptulsa]

The idea that man can frustrate the will of a sovereign God is a contradiction, and contradictions don't exist.

The idea that people making choices is against the will of God because Sola Fide says God cannot want that is a much bigger contradiction. Sola Fide is small and megalomaniacal. God is not.

[pcosmar]

The Bible doesn't teach that man has a free will. It teaches that man has an enslaved will, a will enslaved to sin.

The idea that man can frustrate the will of a sovereign God is a contradiction, and contradictions don't exist.

Read the Bible,, without cherry picking to prove some absurd point.

[Sola_Fide]

Read the Bible,, without cherry picking to prove some absurd point.

Cherry picking? You started the thread about contradictions. I responded to your thread and pointed out the contradiction that exists in Arminianism. You said contradictions can exist and it's okay, but the truth is that don't exist. God is logical and Christianity is a consistent non-contradictory system.

[pcosmar]

You said contradictions can exist and it's okay,

You are a liar again.
I said

I do not think that the bible contradicts itself. It does not.
And I am further convinced that any apparent contradictions are simply a misunderstanding..

are you deliberately obtuse,,or are you wholly unable to be honest?

stop

[Sola_Fide]

You are a liar again.
I said


are you deliberately obtuse,,or are you wholly unable to be honest?

stop

Okay, but how does man frustrate the will of a sovereign God? God wants everyone to be saved, but man can frustrate that will. How? I thought you think God is all powerful?

[pcosmar]

God wants everyone to be saved,

God wants everyone to be saved..

Why do you want to frustrate God?

The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

Not wanting anyone to perish.
but some do perish. some refuse repentance,, some refuse to believe.. some believe a lie.

an apparent paradox

[Sola_Fide]

God wants everyone to be saved..

Why do you want to frustrate God?




Not wanting anyone to perish.
but some do perish. some refuse repentance,, some refuse to believe.. some believe a lie.

an apparent paradox

God is patient TO YOU, not wanting any to perish. Who is the "you" in that passage Pete?

Read the context of the paragraph to see who the "you" is, and then you will have your answer. It is not every single person.

[Sola_Fide]

And still no answer as to how man can frustrate the will of a sovereign God. How can that be?

[acptulsa]

God wants everyone to be saved, but man can frustrate that will.

Did I once read that you had children?

Excuse me while I go pray for the poor unfortunates...

Can a video game designer design a video game with enough variables that the very person who designed the game can start it in motion and play it without knowing exactly how it will come out?

I'm not saying God doesn't know how we'll turn out, mind you. What you refuse to allow into your skull at all costs is that you argue this crap incessantly, year in and year out, and insult as many people as you can in the process, and it's probably all meaningless to God. God creates people capable of choosing Him and people who are not--pots not destined for destruction and pots that are--and in your incomparable single-minded narrowness, you blather that the sole determining factor is whether we give God every last ounce of the credit when we choose Him. Well, dude, the Bible does not make the same emphasis. In fact, the Bible puts the emphasis on honoring God not by giving Him the credit when we do something, but on honoring Him by aiding, comforting and loving one another.

But, you know, you've been up De Nile for years and you have always refused us when we offered you a paddle. So, whatever. You can relish the thought that some souls are irrevocably lost, and try to figure out who they are, until your own dying day, and have fun doing it. For those who have truly embraced God, however, that is much too sad a thing to dwell on...

[pcosmar]

Read the context of the paragraph to see who the "you" is, and then you will have your answer. It is not every single person.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.…

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!

You might want to brush up on what "God's Will" is.

[acptulsa]

You might want to brush up on what "God's Will" is.

He has obviously made up his mind that it's God's will that he be far too stubborn to get a clear view of what God's will really is.

Which is fine. More power to him. The odd part is that he spends so many hours on line advertising that fact to a group of people, even though half of them are merely saddened by the fact, and the rest don't even care.

[lilymc]

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

^ This is exactly what I was going to say.

There are a number of things that we (humans) simply can't wrap our finite little minds around. Unfortunately, you have people who are too prideful to realize or admit that, so they come up with ridiculous/wrong ideas in order to try to explain something that none of us were meant to fully comprehend in the first place.

Calvinism is a perfect example of that. I'm not going to get into this again though, I'm surprised that anyone is still taking the bait, after the first 50 trillion times.

[Sola_Fide]

You might want to brush up on what "God's Will" is.

If God is all powerful, how can man frustrate His will?

Simple question. What's the answer?

[pcosmar]

If God is all powerful, how can man frustrate His will?

Simple question. What's the answer?

Rebellion. following Lucifer's lead.

[acptulsa]

There are a number of things that we (humans) simply can't wrap our finite little minds around. Unfortunately, you have people who are too prideful to realize or admit that...

Creating God in one's own image is a natural act. But it sure doesn't give God much credit, does it? Especially when Sola Fide does it.

If God is all powerful, how can man frustrate His will?

If God is all knowing, how can Sola Fide say what He wills? Which is yet another simple question that will never get answered.

If it happens to be God's will that those of us who choose Him are saved, and those of us who do not choose Him are not saved, then when is His will frustrated?

[RJB]

There aren't contradictions. It appears to be a contradiction when a doctrine is erroneously made from one verse, chapter, or book without taking the Bible as a whole. It's not the verses that contradict but the interpretations that contradict.

[donnay]

God is patient.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[pcosmar]

There aren't contradictions. It appears to be a contradiction when a doctrine is erroneously made from one verse, chapter, or book without taking the Bible as a whole. It's not the verses that contradict but the interpretations that contradict.

Exactly.

and it happens a lot.

[Sola_Fide]

God is patient.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is "us-ward"?

Read the context of the paragraph and then you'll have your answer.

God will not let any of His elect perish.

[Sola_Fide]

Rebellion. following Lucifer's lead.

So an all powerful God is really not all powerful? God can desire something and not bring it to pass?

So it seems like you have a glaring contradiction. But I thought you said you didn't like contradictions?

[donnay]

Who is "us-ward"?

Word: hmaj

Pronounce: hay-mas'

Strongs Number: G2248

Orig: accusative case plural of 1473; us:--our, us, we. G1473

Use:

Heb Strong:

1) us, we, our etc.

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvs...rongs2pet3.htm

Read the context of the paragraph and then you'll have your answer.

God will not let any of His elect perish.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[acptulsa]

God can desire something and not bring it to pass?

You can't get your head outside the box, so you're trying to shove Pete's thread back inside the box?

You tell me, Sola Fide, if you aren't so afraid of me that you have me on ignore. Can God desire something, yet choose not to bring it to pass?

Now we find out who Sola Fide is, by observing how he creates God in his own image. Well, Sola Fide? Can God be capable of doing a thing, but choose not to do it? Can He have a power, yet show enough restraint to not exercise it? Or has He got the self-control of a ferret?

[Sola_Fide]

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvs...rongs2pet3.htm




2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Right. You have not rightly divided the word, because you have let a cult take over your mind.

Secondly, I didn't ask you to give a dictionary definition of us-ward. I asked you to read the paragraph from the passage in Peter to see who the "us" is he is talking about.

[Sola_Fide]

You can't get your head outside the box, so you're trying to shove Pete's thread back inside the box?

You tell me, Sola Fide, if you aren't so afraid of me that you have me on ignore. Can God desire something, yet choose not to bring it to pass?

Now we find out who Sola Fide is, by observing how he creates God in his own image. Well, Sola Fide? Can God be capable of doing a thing, but choose not to do it? Can He have a power, yet show enough restraint to not exercise it? Or has He got the self-control of a ferret?

No, I never put anyone on ignore. I just choose not to engage with you because you aren't studied enough to talk about these issues, and you have an anger problem.

Goodbye.

[donnay]

Right. You have not rightly divided the word, because you have let a cult take over your mind.

Secondly, I didn't ask you to give a dictionary definition of us-ward. I asked you to read the paragraph from the passage in Peter to see who the "us" is he is talking about.

Well how are you going to rightly divide the word if you do not know Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or Caldean? They are study tools to help us learn to rightly divide the Word. Us-ward is all of us, God's children.

[acptulsa]

No, I never put anyone on ignore. I just choose not to engage with you because you aren't studied enough to talk about these issues, and you have an anger problem.

Goodbye.

Let's try a thought experiment, O studied and rational one. Suppose you had a son. Suppose you could make him a member of a club, and you wanted to make him a member of the club because you love him. But suppose you also know he would make the other members of the club miserable because he's a little a$$hole.

Would you make him a member of the club because you want to? Or would you refuse to make him a member of the club for the benefit of the club members?

Feel free to refuse to answer. When you refuse to answer a reasonable and thoughtful question which is entirely pertinent to the discussion at hand, it says much more about how indefensible your position is than it says about me. Because we all know you engage with people who are obviously mad at you all the time. It's only the ones who poke the biggest holes in your tripe that you ignore.

But, of course, you'd just give your kid a lobotomy, right? He wouldn't be the same kid any more, but at least you'd get your will without ruining the club, right?

So, you spend hours a day telling strangers that because their relationship with their Father differs from your relationship with the same Father, they're going to hell. But no one should be irritated by that, and clearly you yourself have no issues at all? That's another interesting thought experiment. Seems, well, unlikely, to be honest. Highly unlikely.

Oh, and if I'm so ignorant, why does my little thought experiment contradict far, far, far fewer Bible verses than your most beloved dogma does?

[Sola_Fide]

Let's try a thought experiment, O studied and rational one. Suppose you had a son. Suppose you could make him a member of a club, and you wanted to make him a member of the club because you love him. But suppose you also know he would make the other members of the club miserable because he's a little a$$hole.

Would you make him a member of the club because you want to? Or would you refuse to make him a member of the club for the benefit of the club members?

Feel free to refuse to answer. When you refuse to answer a reasonable and thoughtful question which is entirely pertinent to the discussion at hand, it says much more about how indefensible your position is than it says about me. Because we all know you engage with people who are obviously mad at you all the time. It's only the ones who poke the biggest holes in your tripe that you ignore.

But, of course, you'd just give your kid a lobotomy, right? He wouldn't be the same kid any more, but at least you'd get your will without ruining the club, right?

So, you spend hours a day telling strangers that because their relationship with their Father differs from your relationship with the same Father, they're going to hell. But no one should be irritated by that, and clearly you yourself have no issues at all? That's another interesting thought experiment. Seems, well, unlikely, to be honest. Highly unlikely.

Oh, and if I'm so ignorant, why does my little thought experiment contradict far, far, far fewer Bible verses than your most beloved dogma does?

www.rageaholicsanonymous.org

[acptulsa]

www.rageaholicsanonymous.org