Apparent Paradox ?

[pcosmar]

Its a simple question.

the devil does not ask simple questions.
post #49
A simple question you have not answered.

[Sola_Fide]

the devil does not ask simple questions.
post #49
A simple question you have not answered.

But the devil does try everything he can do to take glory away from God, which is what you propose by your doctrine of salvation. Whose spirit are you following?

[pcosmar]

Whose spirit are you following?

Was wondering the same..
I am just going to assume that I am conversing with a foul spirit that has gotten control of a keyboard.

sword in hand

[Sola_Fide]

Was wondering the same..
I am just going to assume that I am conversing with a foul spirit that has gotten control of a keyboard.

sword in hand

That's what I was wondering. Because any theology that takes glory away from God in salvation can't be from a godly spirit, right?

Side arm ready

[pcosmar]

Creating God in one's own image is a natural act. But it sure doesn't give God much credit, does it? Especially when Sola Fide does it.

The image he paints of a capricious tyrant who inflicts pain and suffering for his own jollies (glory) is not only false, but offensive.

Such a god would be offensive, and deserving of rebellion.

The god of sola is not the one who rescued me.. and Freed Me in 1980 (this timeline)

It puzzles me how someone could read the same book (assuming he had) and come to such wildly wrong conclusions.

I know that except for few and minor points,, I believe as Most Christians have.
And where I deviate from Traditional beliefs go back to old errors common to most.
and that being Original Sin,,
The original sin.

prior to Adam..
and that only changes some perspectives.

[pcosmar]

But the devil does try everything he can do to take glory away from God,

Yes, he does.
he tries,,

[Jamesiv1]

If ever there was a thread that needs a poll, it's this one.

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, he does.
he tries,,

Many people, even those who claim the name of God, are complicit with Satan in trying to promote theologies that take glory away from God. I hope you think about what I'm saying. Whose spirit do you draw from?

[fisharmor]

Whose spirit do you draw from?

Pete, this is a good question, though not for the reason SF is asking.
There are two ways to approach Scripture. There is the way you have chosen, which, if I'm not mistaken, is to generally reject externalities.
And there is the way I have chosen, which is to seek out the ways the Holy Spirit continues to nurture His Church, the one Christ himself established and promised that not even the gates of Hell would prevail against it.
At the risk of being abrasive, I think you and SF have more in common in this respect than either of you is willing to admit.
When you seek out the ways the Holy Spirit uses the material world, and other people, in established ways to build your faith, you eventually get to the position of understanding that Scripture by itself cannot get you where you need to go.
Like RJB said - there will always be contradicting interpretations.
There is a coherent body of interpretations that makes sense.
I'm not going to say it's paradox free, because there are still the paradoxes of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, and the Sacraments.
But there are two millennia of works on these paradoxes, and a group of people who encourage the exploration of them in a way that increases your relationship with Christ.

[lilymc]

If ever there was a thread that needs a poll, it's this one.

I'm thinking NC was right and that we should throw out the whole religion section. It likely does more harm than it does good. And things never change around here.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm thinking NC was right and that we should throw out the whole religion section. It likely does more harm than it does good. And things never change around here.

No one forces you to click on the religion section. If posts on a messageboard cause you that much distress, maybe you shouldn't click on the links, or maybe turn the computer off for a while.

[pcosmar]

Pete, this is a good question, though not for the reason SF is asking.

Quite alright,, I have no problem with sharing my testimony.

I was Saved,, or I surrendered,,, in a jail cell in Missouri,, 1980.
I had read everything there was in the cell,, but the bible.. I picked(Gideon Bible) it up and started reading. The words came to life unlike any "bible story" I was told as a kid.
I surrendered to Jesus Christ,, my life was over and worthless,, but it was His.

I was baptized by the Calvinist Baptist Chaplin that was over the Prison Chapel..
And I studied under literally every church with a prison ministry. I was ordained as Evangelical Free Baptist. Though I will admit that it was at the urging of others rather than any "calling".

My core beliefs have been unchanged since then,, though I have altered that which was proven wrong,, as I have found such..
for example,, I had been taught the "Israel First" doctrine and held it militantly. I had to repent when I learned the truth of Zionism.
I had generally accepted the "Rapture",,and have corrected that through study and prayer.

The Scripture,, and the Holy Spirit are my guides..

I walked the halls of the Missouri State Penitentiary as a Free Man. And saw Gods hand move in that place. on my behalf and others.
Can I prove what I Know? no

But I Trust the God that Keeps me.. And I know His Voice.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...tion-Knowledge
As for "apparent" paradoxes,,
I Believe,, and it's been my experience that there is balance to all of these seeming contradictions found in scripture.

One has to ignore a great deal of scripture to hold to the Rigid Predestination doctrine of some.
Free Will was essential to Gods Plan, and that will be seen,, if not in this time,, then at Judgement.

[Sola_Fide]

Quite alright,, I have no problem with sharing my testimony.

I was Saved,, or I surrendered,,, in a jail cell in Missouri,, 1980.
I had read everything there was in the cell,, but the bible.. I picked(Gideon Bible) it up and started reading. The words came to life unlike any "bible story" I was told as a kid.
I surrendered to Jesus Christ,, my life was over and worthless,, but it was His.

I was baptized by the Calvinist Baptist Chaplin that was over the Prison Chapel..
And I studied under literally every church with a prison ministry. I was ordained as Evangelical Free Baptist. Though I will admit that it was at the urging of others rather than any "calling".

My core beliefs have been unchanged since then,, though I have altered that which was proven wrong,, as I have found such..
for example,, I had been taught the "Israel First" doctrine and held it militantly. I had to repent when I learned the truth of Zionism.
I had generally accepted the "Rapture",,and have corrected that through study and prayer.

The Scripture,, and the Holy Spirit are my guides..

I walked the halls of the Missouri State Penitentiary as a Free Man. And saw Gods hand move in that place. on my behalf and others.
Can I prove what I Know? no

But I Trust the God that Keeps me.. And I know His Voice.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...tion-Knowledge
As for "apparent" paradoxes,,
I Believe,, and it's been my experience that there is balance to all of these seeming contradictions found in scripture.

One has to ignore a great deal of scripture to hold to the Rigid Predestination doctrine of some.
Free Will was essential to Gods Plan, and that will be seen,, if not in this time,, then at Judgement.

Can you cite even one verse that says "free will was essential to God's plan"?

Because I will give you entire chapters to prove that predestination of the elect was essential to God's plan.

Where are the verses? Be specific please. And don't post verses that simply talk about the duty of man to repent. Imperatives do not imply ability. Cite verses that specifically talk about the will of man.

[pcosmar]

Can you cite even one verse that says "free will was essential to God's plan"?

Nope.. Though there are a very great many that deal with choice.

and that require a choice.
Even Prayer is a Choice. An act of the Will.

I disagree with your theory that we are controlled puppets . Victims of a capricious being that inflicts pain and rewards without justice.

Your theory does not Glorify God,, it insults Him.

[Sola_Fide]

Nope.. Though there are a very great many that deal with choice.

and that require a choice.
Even Prayer is a Choice. An act of the Will.

I disagree with your theory that we are controlled puppets . Victims of a capricious being that inflicts pain and rewards without justice.

Your theory does not Glorify God,, it insults Him.

So.... Not one verse that speaks about the free will of man.

There's a reason you can't come up with one... because it's not in the Bible. Doesn't it bother you that you believe something that the Bible contradicts? That would cause me unending grief. But I guess some people are different.

[Sola_Fide]

Off the top of my head, Genesis 1, Hebrews 8, John 6, John 8, Romans 4, Romans 8, Romans 9 ,and the entire book of Acts are just some of the places in the Bible that show predestination of the elect as essential to God's plan.

[lilymc]

No one forces you to click on the religion section. If posts on a messageboard cause you that much distress, maybe you shouldn't click on the links, or maybe turn the computer off for a while.

I'm not distressed, it's not about me. It’s that unbelievers or people who are on the fence are continually being misled by this religion section. There's a lot more to be said about that, but the last thing I feel like doing right now is getting into an argument with you.

Quite alright,, I have no problem with sharing my testimony.

I was Saved,, or I surrendered,,, in a jail cell in Missouri,, 1980.
I had read everything there was in the cell,, but the bible.. I picked(Gideon Bible) it up and started reading. The words came to life unlike any "bible story" I was told as a kid.
I surrendered to Jesus Christ,, my life was over and worthless,, but it was His.

I was baptized by the Calvinist Baptist Chaplin that was over the Prison Chapel..
And I studied under literally every church with a prison ministry. I was ordained as Evangelical Free Baptist. Though I will admit that it was at the urging of others rather than any "calling".

My core beliefs have been unchanged since then,, though I have altered that which was proven wrong,, as I have found such..
for example,, I had been taught the "Israel First" doctrine and held it militantly. I had to repent when I learned the truth of Zionism.
I had generally accepted the "Rapture",,and have corrected that through study and prayer.

The Scripture,, and the Holy Spirit are my guides..

I walked the halls of the Missouri State Penitentiary as a Free Man. And saw Gods hand move in that place. on my behalf and others.
Can I prove what I Know? no

But I Trust the God that Keeps me.. And I know His Voice.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...tion-Knowledge
As for "apparent" paradoxes,,
I Believe,, and it's been my experience that there is balance to all of these seeming contradictions found in scripture.

One has to ignore a great deal of scripture to hold to the Rigid Predestination doctrine of some.
Free Will was essential to Gods Plan, and that will be seen,, if not in this time,, then at Judgement.

Thank you for sharing your testimony. And thank you for speaking out on these threads. You're absolutely right that God is not a capricious, monster control freak puppetmaster, as Calvinists portray him. The funny thing is, they sound exactly like Christian hating hard-core atheists. Exactly.

[pcosmar]

The funny thing is, they sound exactly like Christian hating hard-core atheists. Exactly.

I find the same thing,, almost a hatred of man..

The God I know Loves man, Created him as a companion,, and Redeemed him at great cost.

No,, the accusations against man come from a spirit that hates man.

[Sola_Fide]

I find the same thing,, almost a hatred of man..

The God I know Loves man, Created him as a companion,, and Redeemed him at great cost.

No,, the accusations against man come from a spirit that hates man.

Right. That's the idol you've created in your mind. The God of the Bible is at enmity with man. This is Romans 1, if you care to read it.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm not distressed, it's not about me. It’s that unbelievers or people who are on the fence are continually being misled by this religion section. There's a lot more to be said about that, but the last thing I feel like doing right now is getting into an argument with you.



Thank you for sharing your testimony. And thank you for speaking out on these threads. You're absolutely right that God is not a capricious, monster control freak puppetmaster, as Calvinists portray him. The funny thing is, they sound exactly like Christian hating hard-core atheists. Exactly.

This may come as a surprise to you (maybe not), but I don't think we are on the same team. I don't believe in the same religion as you do.

I also don't view this messageboard like a seeker-friendly church service. That's your view of things. So you keep doing your seeker friendly church service where you don't "offend" anyone and don't preach the gospel. I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

[pcosmar]

if you care to read it.

Get the rest of the Bible and read it.. then read the whole thing in context without the veil of your misconceptions.

You are becoming a buffoon.

[pcosmar]

I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

Be gone foul spirit.

[Sola_Fide]

Also, make no mistake that the true gospel is an affront to man and an offence. Jesus is the Rock of Offence.

The natural man hates what the gospel is. And the fact that so many here are offended at what the Gospel is, yet name the name of Christ while doing it, should cause you to step back and think.

[Sola_Fide]

Be gone foul spirit.

Uh.... ok

[acptulsa]

Cite verses that specifically talk about the will of man.

The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.

You say God engineers every little thing that happens. So God micromanages every sin that is committed, makes it happen, judges others for what He has done, and calls it justice. And this proverb, which says man screws up because he us foolish, and unjustly blames God for his own foolishness, must therefore be misinformation. Like Jesus' parables, and the book of Enoch.

This may come as a surprise to you (maybe not), but I don't think we are on the same team. I don't believe in the same religion as you do.

I don't think anybody believes in the same religion you do. Christians believe God is just. You go around saying God makes us do the foolish things we do, which means God commits all sin. And, yes, using that thing you tout, then scorn, which you claim to use, but never do--logic--that's what that means. To say what you avow is to say it's reasonable and just to pull the trigger, then claim you are innocent of murder because you didn't touch the victim--the bullet did.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

You say God not only tempts men, He causes--forces--men to sin, and therefore commits sins by proxy. No, you're right, you don't believe in the God I know, and read about in the Bible. Your god personally does all things that are done, both good and bad, then demands praise for the good things and punishes those who even say he did the bad things. That's no religion based on the Bible. That's a sinner perversely trying to get his favorite sin declared to be some kind of justice.

Well, the alternative to who God really is, is a god who creates purpose-less evil. Why would you worship a God that created a world where evil has no redemptive purpose? I wouldn't do it.

Either that's exactly what you will do, and do all the time, or you're piss poor at explaining--and maybe understanding--your own dogma. So, God creates people having decided in advance if they're to be saved or not, then puts them through a succession of experiences--many of them evil and painful--and directs their every reaction, then blames them for the reactions God made them have, or praises Himself for their reactions if they please Him, then bestows the Grace that was granted to some before any of 'em were born.

So, the evil and painful experiences that were microengineered and inserted in the middle of that, between the granting of Grace and the bestowal of Grace--it accomplishes what, exactly?

You need to get a grip on your own dogma before you continue wandering the internet, telling everyone you're the only one who 'gets it'. Yes, I have at the very least a speck in my eye. What about that big stick in yours?

27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
28 An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity.
29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.

[donnay]

Can you cite even one verse that says "free will was essential to God's plan"?

Because I will give you entire chapters to prove that predestination of the elect was essential to God's plan.

Where are the verses? Be specific please. And don't post verses that simply talk about the duty of man to repent. Imperatives do not imply ability. Cite verses that specifically talk about the will of man.

John 7:17 - KJV
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Romans 10:9 - 10:10 KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


John 1:12 - 1:13 KJV
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Proverbs 16:9 - KJV
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

[acptulsa]

Donna, this is a guy who was raised on fundamentalist claptrap. In his youth, he rightly rejected the fundamentalist claptrap, but went overboard and threw the baby out with the bathwater. He turned atheist. Eventually, God drew him back into the fold, but as the only way he ever knew to approach God was through a minefield of claptrap, he has been working his ass off to convince himself the claptrap makes sense. And he comes here for some confirmation bias that the claptrap he thinks is the path to God does make sense.

Throwing verses in his face isn't helping, because he has already demonstrated a considerable ability to misinterpret what he can, and ignore the rest.

We may be able to soften his heart through love and patience, or we may be able to soften his defenses by mounting an irresistible force against those hard defenses around his heart. But nobody is going to help him by throwing random verses in his face, quoted out of context, without piecing them into the puzzle and demonstrating how they fit the big picture.

Those are the tactics that got him stuck in his rut. They won't get him out of it.

[donnay]

I'm thinking NC was right and that we should throw out the whole religion section. It likely does more harm than it does good. And things never change around here.

Nah we just need to put on our gospel armour because this is to be expected in the times we are living.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (KJV)

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

~ Amen

[donnay]

Donna, this is a guy who was raised on fundamentalist claptrap. In his youth, he rightly rejected the fundamentalist claptrap, but went overboard and threw the baby out with the bathwater. He turned atheist. Eventually, God drew him back into the fold, but as the only way he ever knew to approach God was through a minefield of claptrap, he has been working his ass off to convince himself the claptrap makes sense. And he comes here for some confirmation bias that the claptrap he thinks is the path to God does make sense.

Throwing verses in his face isn't helping, because he has already demonstrated a considerable ability to misinterpret what he can, and ignore the rest.

We may be able to soften his heart through love and patience, or we may be able to soften his defenses by mounting an irresistible force against those hard defenses around his heart. But nobody is going to help him by throwing random verses in his face, quoted out of context, without piecing them into the puzzle and demonstrating how they fit the big picture.

Those are the tactics that got him stuck in his rut. They won't get him out of it.

He specifically asked to cite the sources so I obliged. However, I understand and it is duly noted.

[acptulsa]

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Not Sola Fide. Oh, no. The principalities and powers whith wickedness in high places can shed all the darkness they want in this world, as far as he is concerned. That's the job the devil gave them, and he's content to let them run wild.

But let one brother or sister thank God for helping them choose the side of good, instead of thanking God for making them choose the side of good, and Sola will distract them from the good fight for days and weeks by climbing up one side of them and down the other.

That's just... so... um... helpful?