Apparent Paradox ?

[pcosmar]

So an all powerful God is really not all powerful?

This used to be a joke once,,
(not so funny)


though I do find that level of intellect to be a sad joke.

[acptulsa]

This used to be a joke once,,
(not so funny)


though I do find that level of intellect to be a sad joke.

Using paradoxes in an attempt to be humorous is one thing. Using paradoxes to engage in "gotcha theology", however, is a whole other level of sad behavior.

[pcosmar]

Let him try,,

His only argument currently is "Logical Absurdity."
and I thought only atheists used that.

[Sola_Fide]

Let him try,,

His only argument currently is "Logical Absurdity."
and I thought only atheists used that.

So what are you saying about logic? Do you think you should be irrational or violate the laws of logic as a Christian?

[pcosmar]

Using paradoxes in an attempt to be humorous is one thing. Using paradoxes to engage in "gotcha theology", however, is a whole other level of sad behavior.

I titled the thread "Apparent Paradox ?".

I do not believe there is a paradox. only what appears to be a paradox..
and that only becomes a problem if you try to remove half the equation.

[pcosmar]

So what are you saying about logic? Do you think you should be irrational or violate the laws of logic as a Christian?

Post#22

[Sola_Fide]

I titled the thread "Apparent Paradox ?".

I do not believe there is a paradox. only what appears to be a paradox..
and that only becomes a problem if you try to remove half the equation.

Your position presents the problem itself. In the Biblical view of salvation, there is no contradiction, apparent or otherwise.

[acptulsa]

I titled the thread "Apparent Paradox ?".

I do not believe there is a paradox. only what appears to be a paradox..
and that only becomes a problem if you try to remove half the equation.

No, not you. Sola Fide plays that game all the time. If God wanted His children to behave, He could make us behave, He could even make us incapable of misbehaving. So if He made us capable of misbehaving, obviously He wants us to misbehave, and it's only by His Grace that we can misbehave and be saved too. The Free Will Paradox--God is omnipotent, so we can have no free will--is his stock in trade. I don't know if you've noticed, but Sola is unwilling--and maybe even incapable--of admitting that a being can have a desire to see a certain outcome, and the power to force that certain outcome, yet refuse to use that power for whatever reason.

Perhaps that's just a lack of imagination. Perhaps that indicates that, given a modicum of power, he's no more capable of exercising restraint than a ferret is, so he doesn't understand the concept. I don't know. But he will always throw a paradox like that in your face, and abuse you for answering either way if he can.

Your position presents the problem itself. In the Biblical view of salvation, there is no contradiction, apparent or otherwise.

You contradict the Bible all the time, and people rub your nose in it all the time. But you have neither eyes to see nor ears to hear.

Is there a service out there which can teach seeing eye dogs to type?

[pcosmar]

Your position presents the problem itself. In the Biblical view of salvation, there is no contradiction, apparent or otherwise.

I see none.. You keep trying to create one. And you present a horribly distorted view of God,, of salvation, and of a relationship with him.

I find your description of God as a heartless tyrant will no care abhorrent,,
A ruthless and capricious sadist who tortures lesser beings without purpose for amusement.
(and that is the description your posting presents)

I find it offensive,, though I do try to be civil.

[acptulsa]

I find your description of God as a heartless tyrant will no care abhorrent,,
A ruthless and capricious sadist who tortures lesser beings without purpose for amusement.
(and that is the description your posting presents)

I find it offensive,, though I do try to be civil.

I do too. But, you know, if that's what he believes, that's what he believes.

What I find truly offensive is the way he abuses those who read the Bible, and point out the overwhelming evidence that his view is wrong. Anyone who dismisses the words of my Savior as 'unfathomable code' and berates people for believing them with one breath, then excoriates the same people for not reading the Bible or using his same definition of 'Gospels' with the next, is more interested in offending people than any theology.

[Sola_Fide]

I see none.. You keep trying to create one. And you present a horribly distorted view of God,, of salvation, and of a relationship with him.

I find your description of God as a heartless tyrant will no care abhorrent,,
A ruthless and capricious sadist who tortures lesser beings without purpose for amusement.
(and that is the description your posting presents)

I find it offensive,, though I do try to be civil.

You have the same objection that the hypothetical objector has in Roman's 9. When you have the EXACT same objection that the apostle Paul answers and condemns, you know you have a real problem.

Read Roman's chapter 9 to find the very same objection you have, answered and condemned. I really hope you read it.

[pcosmar]

Read Roman's chapter 9

Ok did,, It has nothing to do with discussion,,,,, beyond the fact that you live in Romans.
It is Paul lamenting about being sent to the Gentiles. and accepting that the "Israel" he knew was no more.

Did you somehow get the mistaken belief that it was the whole bible?

[acptulsa]

You have the same objection that the hypothetical objector has in Roman's 9. When you have the EXACT same objection that the apostle Paul answers and condemns, you know you have a real problem.

Read Roman's chapter 9 to find the very same objection you have, answered and condemned. I really hope you read it.

You're just condemning yourself.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

You say this means those who try to obey are condemned because they reach for that which they cannot obtain, while those who do not try to obey are saved because they admit they are incapable and submit to Grace with faith. Yet your path is one of legalities. Do not try to obey your Father because to try is to suppose you might succeed. But in fact, if God wills that if you try you succeed, then if you try you will succeed. Trying is the act of faith, and success is the Grace.

Saying I must not try, because I misinterpreted some verse to say that trying to do what I cannot do alone is an arrogant assertion that I can do it without His help, is not an act of faith. That is the act of playing on a legal technicality. That is saying I will not take the leap of faith, I will not try and give God the chance to help me if He chooses, but will rely on a legal loophole, and call that faith.

You are once again saying up is down and down is up.

There are many ways to rely on loopholes, and many ways to act on faith. But legalities are legalities, and faith is faith. Even Paul knew that.

I suppose that relying on your loophole could be an act of faith. But running around trying to get people to agree that your loophole is, indeed, a loophole--looking for confirmation--is evidence of a lack of faith. It makes you one of the Pharisees that Jesus admonished...

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[Sola_Fide]

Ok did,, It has nothing to do with discussion,,,,, beyond the fact that you live in Romans.
It is Paul lamenting about being sent to the Gentiles. and accepting that the "Israel" he knew was no more.

Did you somehow get the mistaken belief that it was the whole bible?

Please read every word of this. I will bold your EXACT objection, and then I will bold the Bible's answer to you.

18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

there's your exact objection answered by the Bible.

[Sola_Fide]

Romans 9:18

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Are people blind? How can a person read that and still believe that man has free will? Unreal.....

[pcosmar]

there's your exact objection answered by the Bible.

and then I will bold the Bible's answer to you.

What? Are you playing at being some unholy quija board or magic 8-ball,,

"I will BOLD your Answer"

I have no objection with the Bible.. nor did that passage have any immediate relevance.

Just quit with the stupid..
You are embarrassing

[Sola_Fide]

What? Are you playing at being some unholy quija board or magic 8-ball,,

"I will BOLD your Answer"

I have no objection with the Bible.. nor did that passage have any immediate relevance.

Just quit with the stupid..
You are embarrassing

OK. I'll ask you then.

Why does God still blame people for not responding? Aren't they just doing what He makes them do?

What's your answer to that?

[acptulsa]

Are people blind? How can a person read that and still believe that man has free will? Unreal.....

It requires a heart which is not too hard to respond to His will to do something like that. It takes a heart which is soft to consider responding to His will something even a child could do, and it takes a hard heart indeed to lash out in rage and call people blind who believe man is capable of it.

[pcosmar]

OK. I'll ask you then.

Why does God still blame people for not responding? Aren't they just doing what He makes them do?

What's your answer to that?

If they were doing what he made them do,, then they have no choice. they are obedient to God.

Does God punish obedience? I answered your question,, please answer this.

[Sola_Fide]

If they were doing what he made them do,, then they have no choice. they are obedient to God.

Does God punish obedience? I answered your question,, please answer this.

Pete, read these two sentences together :

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

Your question has nothing to do with what the Bible is talking about, so I can't answer it.

You can read exactly what the Bible is talking about. It's talking about the inability of man to hear because GOD HARDENS THE HEART SO THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN.

[acptulsa]

If they were doing what he made them do,, then they have no choice. they are obedient to God.

Does God punish obedience? I answered your question,, please answer this.

Pete, read these two sentences together :

Your question has nothing to do with what the Bible is talking about, so I can't answer it.

You can read exactly what the Bible is talking about. It's talking about the inability of man to hear because GOD HARDENS THE HEART SO THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN.

It has everything to do with what you are talking about. Your heart is hard, however, so you can't hear it.

Pete, I believe the hardened heart does not compel man to obey commands to go contrary to God's will. It makes it impossible to obey it. When God hardens a heart, He is not commanding disobedience, but rather obedience becomes impossible.

It's a fine rhetorical line. I have doubts whether God hardens hearts to that point, as Paul says, or if it is done by a certain fallen angel. But, of course, the micromanager god of Sola Fide even operates demons as marionettes on his strings...

[pcosmar]

Pete, read these two sentences together :



Your question has nothing to do with what the Bible is talking about, so I can't answer it.

You can read exactly what the Bible is talking about. It's talking about the inability of man to hear because GOD HARDENS THE HEART SO THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN.

Dude,,or whatever you claim to be,,

I Have no Problem listening to God.

It is you that I am tired of. It is your Distortions of the bible.
Your Lies and dishonesty.
Your inability to refrain from attacking every poster in this sub forum.

YOU Sola.. YOU are not God. YOU are a Pest.

[pcosmar]

Your question has nothing to do with what the Bible is talking about, so I can't answer it.

Fail.
I welcomed you back on your first post.. and had hoped you had learned something.

so sad

[Sola_Fide]

Dude,,or whatever you claim to be,,

I Have no Problem listening to God.

It is you that I am tired of. It is your Distortions of the bible.
Your Lies and dishonesty.
Your inability to refrain from attacking every poster in this sub forum.

YOU Sola.. YOU are not God. YOU are a Pest.

Do you believe what the Bible says, that God chooses who He will save and who He will harden?

[acptulsa]

Do you believe what the Bible says, that God chooses who He will save and who He will harden?

Well, I must admit, dealing with you makes it an awfully difficult thing to deny.

[pcosmar]

Do you believe what the Bible says, that God chooses who He will save and who He will harden?

IT ALSO SAID GOD DID THINGS THAT THE DEVIL DID
Because God took responsibility for it.

He takes responsibility for satan,, His creation.

Is Satan Obedient? No..

Did God Curse Job? ,,,no
Did God allow it?,, yes

Did God take responsibility for it,, yes.
Did God DO IT? ,,,no

Does God Punish Obedience? no that would be unjust.

[pcosmar]

Well, I must admit, dealing with you makes it an awfully difficult thing to deny.

Really is a one trick pony.

[Sola_Fide]

IT ALSO SAID GOD DID THINGS THAT THE DEVIL DID
Because God took responsibility for it.

He takes responsibility for satan,, His creation.

Is Satan Obedient? No..

Did God Curse Job? ,,,no
Did God allow it?,, yes

Did God take responsibility for it,, yes.
Did God DO IT? ,,,no

Does God Punish Obedience? no that would be unjust.

Pete.... You are all over the place. Read this:

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

It's a simple question. Does God not choose who He gives mercy to and who He hardens?

[pcosmar]

Pete.... You are all over the place.

All of the bible.

not just cherry picked verses out of context..

YOU are the one that has the problem.

You have been fed a twisted and deformed theology that rejects half of the bible.

I have no problem with "predestination". I have no problem with Free Will coexisting at the same time.
You are the one that has a problem,,because you reject everything that does not fit your very narrow view if scripture, rather than even looking at the larger picture.

You are dishonest. sola fide

[Sola_Fide]

All of the bible.

not just cherry picked verses out of context..

YOU are the one that has the problem.

You have been fed a twisted and deformed theology that rejects half of the bible.

I have no problem with "predestination". I have no problem with Free Will coexisting at the same time.
You are the one that has a problem,,because you reject everything that does not fit your very narrow view if scripture, rather than even looking at the larger picture.

You are dishonest. sola fide

Its a simple question. Does God not choose who He gives mercy to and who He hardens?