Chosen, From The Beginning Of Time

[Sola_Fide]

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

– 2 Thes 2:13

The Bible teaches unequivocally that God chooses who will and will not be saved.

[pcosmar]

The Bible teaches unequivocally that God chooses who will and will not be saved.

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for who?

The angels and their leader.. The rebellious against God.

and those that follow such chose their fate.

[Anti Federalist]

And if I am not chosen, there is nothing I can do to achieve salvation and eternal life, correct?

[Sola_Fide]

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for who?

The angels and their leader.. The rebellious against God.

and those that follow such chose their fate.

No. That verse shouldn't be read like "hell was only made for the devil". It should be read like "this place is so bad that the devil himself will be punished there. You don't want to go there! "

For a long time you've pushed this idea that real people will not be punished in hell and God does not have wrath against real people. How can you read one page of the Bible and not see this? It literally blows the mind... You're obviously wrong.

[Sola_Fide]

And if I am not chosen, there is nothing I can do to achieve salvation and eternal life, correct?

How do you know who is or isn't chosen?

The answer is, you don't.

So since you don't have this knowledge, what you are left with is God's command to believe fully on Jesus for salvation. And when you believe, you give all the glory to God because He is the one who opens the eyes of the blind.

[PursuePeace]

And how does this view of God help you to love others as yourself?
When God is dangling human beings (who have loved ones and people who care immensely for them) over some eternal torture of fire?
How does this help you love others as yourself?
How does this help you love God?

There is really only one view that helps you love others as yourself and love God with all of your heart.
The view of a merciful, and loving, and forgiving God. A FATHER.
One who loves His children. One who DOES CORRECT His children. One who would never turn His back on ANY of His children.
One who would leave the 99 of us, to find the 1 of us who is YET still LOST.
We're all in darkness. And one by one... He leads us into the light.
His ways are mysterious. And his mercy is far more than any mere human can imagine.
Even the worst among us... I have faith that God WILL be triumphant.
We can't venture so far into the darkness that His hand can't reach.
I have full faith in that. It's not an easy belief at times. It's full of fire.

Probably won't say much more in this thread.
Just had to share that which was in my heart at the moment.

peace ya'll..

[pcosmar]

From The Beginning Of Time

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

till the end of time.. Doing Time. on battlefield earth.

Heavens aren't in time,, as we know it. (hard to wrap ones head around)
so In the beginning, God created time. A Finite place in an infinite place.

[Sola_Fide]

till the end of time.. Doing Time. on battlefield earth.

Heavens aren't in time,, as we know it. (hard to wrap ones head around)
so In the beginning, God created time. A Finite place in an infinite place.

Yes. And God predestined His elect before time began! Think about that!

2 Timothy 1:9

He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

[pcosmar]

No. That verse shouldn't be read like "hell was only made for the devil". It should be read like "

Re Writing the bible when it does not suit?
expected

It says what it says in plain language,, because it means what it says. Hell was made for the Devil.. from the beginning.

[pcosmar]

Yes. And God predestined His elect before time began! Think about that!

I have and I do.

I doubt you have any idea what Enoch was talking about.. because every place you read it is a quote from the prophet Enoch.

The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

That is where "the elect" comes from.

[Sola_Fide]

Re Writing the bible when it does not suit?
expected

It says what it says in plain language,, because it means what it says. Hell was made for the Devil.. from the beginning.

Real people go to hell:

Revelation 20:15

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

How many more dozens of verses do you want?

[Sola_Fide]

I have and I do.

I doubt you have any idea what Enoch was talking about.. because every place you read it is a quote from the prophet Enoch.


That is where "the elect" comes from.

That's great and all, but the book of Enoch was not written by the prophet Enoch. That is why neither the Jews or the early church recognized it as Scripture.

[pcosmar]

For a long time you've pushed this idea that real people will not be punished in hell and God does not have wrath against real people.

Actually NO.. I have never said that or inferred anything like it. YOU are a liar.

People will be punished. Those who have rejected God.
God said he did not make it for man.
God said He Make It to punish Angels.

and at this point it is not me you argue with

[pcosmar]

That's great and all, but the book of Enoch was not written by the prophet Enoch. That is why neither the Jews or the early church recognized it as Scripture.

Got handwriting samples for Paul?

The Books of Enoch have been kept since early times. (I would love to see lead tablets found when it is time)
The Ethiopian bible retains the books.

The great effort to stifle is often a clue of what someone wants hidden..

What does it hurt to read?

[Sola_Fide]

And how does this view of God help you to love others as yourself?
When God is dangling human beings (who have loved ones and people who care immensely for them) over some eternal torture of fire?
How does this help you love others as yourself?
How does this help you love God?

There is really only one view that helps you love others as yourself and love God with all of your heart.
The view of a merciful, and loving, and forgiving God. A FATHER.
One who loves His children. One who DOES CORRECT His children. One who would never turn His back on ANY of His children.
One who would leave the 99 of us, to find the 1 of us who is YET still LOST.
We're all in darkness. And one by one... He leads us into the light.
His ways are mysterious. And his mercy is far more than any mere human can imagine.
Even the worst among us... I have faith that God WILL be triumphant.
We can't venture so far into the darkness that His hand can't reach.
I have full faith in that. It's not an easy belief at times. It's full of fire.

Probably won't say much more in this thread.
Just had to share that which was in my heart at the moment.

peace ya'll..

In these questions, what is missing? What's missing is the sinfulness of man and the holiness of God.

And that is the problem with your theology. You downplay man's sin and you downplay the holiness of God by thinking He winks at sin. You see, in your view man is too big and your god is too small.

But make no mistake, God is holy and won't allow sin in His presence. And He has wrath against the sin of man who is utterly sinful.

The most amazing thing about grace is that God saves even one of us.

[Sola_Fide]

Got handwriting samples for Paul?

Don't need them. Paul's epistles were immediately received by the church as Scripture itself.

[pcosmar]

Don't need them. Paul's epistles were immediately received by the church as Scripture itself.

Enoch was known to Paul and Jude (likely all).
They Quoted it.

[heavenlyboy34]

Ah, against Free Will. One of the doctrines militant atheists who believe in scientism have in common with the OP.

Free will could all be an illusion, scientists suggest after study shows choice may just be brain tricking itself

Research adds to evidence suggesting 'even our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong'

Free will might be an illusion created by our brains, scientists might have proved.
Humans are convinced that they make conscious choices as they live their lives. But instead it may be that the brain just convinces itself that it made a free choice from the available options after the decision is made.
The idea was tested out by tricking subjects into believing that they had made a choice before the consequences of that choice could actually be seen. In the test, people were made to believe that they had taken a decision using free will – even though that was impossible.

The idea that human beings trick themselves into believing in free will was laid out in a paper by psychologists Dan Wegner and Thalia Wheatley nearly 20 years ago. They proposed the feeling of wanting to do something was real, but there may be no connection between the feeling and actually doing it.

The new study builds on that work and says that the brain rewrites history when it makes its choices, changing our memories so that we believe we wanted to do something before it happened.
In one of the studies undertaken by Adam Bear and Paul Bloom, of Yale University, the test subjects were shown five white circles on a computer monitor. They were told to choose one of the circles before one of them lit up red.
The participants were then asked to describe whether they’d picked the correct circle, another one, or if they hadn’t had time to actually pick one.
Statistically, people should have picked the right circle about one out of every five times. But they reported getting it right much more than 20 per cent of the time, going over 30 per cent if the circle turned red very quickly.

The scientists suggest that the findings show that the test subjects’ minds were swapping around the order of events, so that it appeared that they had chosen the right circle – even if they hadn’t actually had time to do so.

The idea of free will may have arisen because it is a useful thing to have, giving people a feeling of control over their lives and allowing for people to be punished for wrongdoing.
But that same feeling can go awry, the scientists wrote in the Scientific American magazine. It may be important for people to feel they are control of their lives, for instance, but distortions in that same process might make people feel that they have control over external processes like the weather.
The scientists cautioned that the illusion of choice might only apply to choices that are made quickly and without too much thought. But it might also be “pervasive and ubiquitous — governing all aspects of our behaviour, from our most minute to our most important decisions”.

“Whatever the case may be,” they write, “our studies add to a growing body of work suggesting that even our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong.”

The work is published in the journal Psychological Science.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-a7008181.html

[Sola_Fide]

Enoch was known to Paul and Jude (likely all).
They Quoted it.

Paul quoted pagan philosophers Epimenides, Menander, and Aratus. Are their writings scripture?

[Sola_Fide]

Ah, against Free Will. One of the doctrines militant atheists who believe in scientism have in common with the OP.

Free will could all be an illusion, scientists suggest after study shows choice may just be brain tricking itself

Research adds to evidence suggesting 'even our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong'



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-a7008181.html

The free will position already grants determinism. It says that God knows everything that will happen. That implies a fixed series of events.

The free will position isn't even consistent with itself. It's not Biblical or logical.

[pcosmar]

Paul quoted pagan philosophers Epimenides, Menander, and Aratus. Are their writings scripture?

No,, most of Romans 1 is Paraphrased Enoch. (you would would see the similarities if you read it)

But it is not necessary.. only helpful.

You already ignore or rewrite anything to suit your view.

[Sola_Fide]

No,, most of Romans 1 is Paraphrased Enoch. (you would would see the similarities if you read it)

But it is not necessary.. only helpful.

You already ignore or rewrite anything to suit your view.

You say "no", and then completely miss the point. Just because a book is quoted from in the Bible does not make it Scripture. That is the point. The writers of the epistles can use all kinds of literature, whether it's the writings of pagan philosophers, or popular Jewish wisdom literature, and it doesn't make it Scripture.

[Sola_Fide]

I have and I do.

I doubt you have any idea what Enoch was talking about.. because every place you read it is a quote from the prophet Enoch.


That is where "the elect" comes from.

No, that's not where it comes from. The elect comes from the Old Testament, thousands of years before the book of Enoch was written and then falsely attributed to him.

[William Tell]

How do you know who is or isn't chosen?

The answer is, you don't.

So since you don't have this knowledge, what you are left with is God's command to believe fully on Jesus for salvation. And when you believe, you give all the glory to God because He is the one who opens the eyes of the blind.

So, Sola, you re saying you do not know if you are saved?

[acptulsa]

That's great and all, but the book of Enoch was not written by the prophet Enoch. That is why neither the Jews or the early church recognized it as Scripture.

So Paul just held the pencil while the Holy Spirit wrote his epistles, according to you, and God Himself micromanaged every Bible translation word for word (except, of course, for the Living Bible). Yet somehow the infallible God managed to let Enoch slip by? Was that the same day He came to earth in human form, and said a bunch of things in unfathomable code because He may be able to write stuff mere humans can understand (using Paul's hand) but He can't say stuff mere humans can understand using Jesus' mouth?

You must really enjoy being obnoxious and starting arguments, or you'd actually do your fellow man a service for a change, and abridge the Bible. Sola Fide's Digest Condensed Bible. Enoch gets thrown out with the eunuchs and the red letter quotes all have asterisks with a footnote that says, 'You're too stupid to understand what this means.' It shouldn't take you half as long as a dozen of these arguments you love to start. With the Holy Spirit doing the typing, your fingers will fly as they've never flown before.

But, of course, we have no evidence at all you're the least bit motivated to help your fellow man. You seem to be solely motivated to start heated arguments.

Paul quoted pagan philosophers Epimenides, Menander, and Aratus. Are their writings scripture?

So, if I find a scripture where Paul quotes a pagan philosopher, does that make that verse of that epistle something other than scripture? Does that mean I can assume this sentence attributed to Paul was not ghost written by the Holy Ghost? And if so, why would I take your word for it that every other random, politically correct, possibly censored by the Roman government thought that Paul put to parchment was dictated by the Holy Spirit and transcribed without error?

Pete is right. You pick and choose constantly. You insist that we can't have it both ways, but you also insist that you can and do have it both ways. You aren't any different than any member of Congress. You figure your election makes you something more than human, some kind of god--even as you admit you didn't count the votes yourself, and you can't be sure you were elected.

Only false prophets dream up excuses people can use to deliberately misinterpret, or completely disregard as unintelligible, the words of my Savior. So go ahead. Tell me yet again how I'm damned to Hell for an eternity--a Hell the Bible doesn't even mention, preferring to talk about a Lake of Fire--because I prefer to put my faith in God instead of you.

I don't know if you're a Godly attention whore, a devilish attention whore, or an attention whore with many shades of gray. But there's one thing I do know. You ain't no theologian. A theologian, by the very definition of the word, concerns himself with the words of God. You call the words spoken by God 'unfathomable code', and promote the scribblings of some guy named Paul as having been dictated--in fathomable non-code--by the Holy Spirit. And what proof do you have of this? Why, Paul said so. You know, there's a group of people in Utah who do the same thing. Only difference is, the guy who told them everything he ever scribbled down was dictated by the Holy Spirit wasn't named Paul. He was named Joseph...

[donnay]

The Bible teaches unequivocally that God chooses who will and will not be saved.

That has nothing to do with those who will be saved. It has everything to do with those who were chosen from the first earth age, who fought Satan. God knows he can trust them to be the witnesses in the end.

Satan will come before Christ and he will have everyone fooled (except for the Elect) he is Jesus Christ. However Satan is so slick that Christ shortened the time (7 years to 5 months) because of the possibility that even the Elect could be deceived.

Matthew 24:22-24 (KJV)

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:20
“And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

Revelation 9:5
“And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”


ETA:

If you do not understand the Beginning... you'll never understand the ending.

[georgiaboy]

Chosen, From the Beginning of Time

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

– 2 Thes 2:13

Sola - you added the words "of Time". It's not there. You put it there. I think that's called "reading into the text".

[pcosmar]

The free will position isn't even consistent with itself. It's not Biblical or logical.

I disagree. The entire collection of books are about Will and Choices.

It is both Biblical and Perfectly Logical..
And the most striking difference between the two is the nature of God.

I see God as a Loving Creator,, who had gone to great lengths to save his beloved creation.
One who wishes all be saved. One who wishes a people who will Love him by choice and not serve out of fear.

Whereas you present a Him as a capricious tyrant, both demanding and destructive. Who can not be pleased by any but himself.

I believe it is you that have a quite distorted view of God and of Scripture,,
I wish you would do some more study,, and fire whoever has been your teacher.

You really don't know the bible,, (several here do) and that becomes more obvious the more you post.
Whoever you have been listening to is leading you wrong..

and that said with no ill intent.

You have been listening to some bad teaching.
It is confused and wrong.. Horribly wrong.

[pcosmar]

If you do not understand the Beginning... you'll never understand the ending.

not at first.

But it is best to be ready.

As in the days of Noah.

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

If you want a glimpse of what the world was before the flood,, before Noah..
The books of Enoch are somewhat descriptive. and shines on and illuminates later Scripture.
Fills in some vague areas. Expands Understanding.

as it was

[donnay]

not at first.

But it is best to be ready.

As in the days of Noah.


If you want a glimpse of what the world was before the flood,, before Noah..
The books of Enoch are somewhat descriptive. and shines on and illuminates later Scripture.
Fills in some vague areas. Expands Understanding.

as it was

We are to be watchmen and know the seasons.


Matthew 24:36 (KJV)

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42-43 (KJV)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Matthew 24:50 (KJV)

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,


Mark 13:4-37 (KJV)

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Luke 12:35-40,KJV

"Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Luke 21:34-36,KJV

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 3:3,KJV

"Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."


Revelation 16:15,KJV

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."