Chosen, From The Beginning Of Time

[Sola_Fide]

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

– 2 Thes 2:13

The Bible teaches unequivocally that God chooses who will and will not be saved.

[pcosmar]

The Bible teaches unequivocally that God chooses who will and will not be saved.

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for who?

The angels and their leader.. The rebellious against God.

and those that follow such chose their fate.

[Sola_Fide]

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for who?

The angels and their leader.. The rebellious against God.

and those that follow such chose their fate.

No. That verse shouldn't be read like "hell was only made for the devil". It should be read like "this place is so bad that the devil himself will be punished there. You don't want to go there! "

For a long time you've pushed this idea that real people will not be punished in hell and God does not have wrath against real people. How can you read one page of the Bible and not see this? It literally blows the mind... You're obviously wrong.

[pcosmar]

No. That verse shouldn't be read like "hell was only made for the devil". It should be read like "

Re Writing the bible when it does not suit?
expected

It says what it says in plain language,, because it means what it says. Hell was made for the Devil.. from the beginning.

[Sola_Fide]

Re Writing the bible when it does not suit?
expected

It says what it says in plain language,, because it means what it says. Hell was made for the Devil.. from the beginning.

Real people go to hell:

Revelation 20:15

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

How many more dozens of verses do you want?

[pcosmar]

For a long time you've pushed this idea that real people will not be punished in hell and God does not have wrath against real people.

Actually NO.. I have never said that or inferred anything like it. YOU are a liar.

People will be punished. Those who have rejected God.
God said he did not make it for man.
God said He Make It to punish Angels.

and at this point it is not me you argue with

[Anti Federalist]

And if I am not chosen, there is nothing I can do to achieve salvation and eternal life, correct?

[Sola_Fide]

And if I am not chosen, there is nothing I can do to achieve salvation and eternal life, correct?

How do you know who is or isn't chosen?

The answer is, you don't.

So since you don't have this knowledge, what you are left with is God's command to believe fully on Jesus for salvation. And when you believe, you give all the glory to God because He is the one who opens the eyes of the blind.

[William Tell]

How do you know who is or isn't chosen?

The answer is, you don't.

So since you don't have this knowledge, what you are left with is God's command to believe fully on Jesus for salvation. And when you believe, you give all the glory to God because He is the one who opens the eyes of the blind.

So, Sola, you re saying you do not know if you are saved?

[William Tell]

So, Sola, you re saying you do not know if you are saved?

Sorry if that seemed too personal. I'm just trying to understand how in your view a person can have certain faith that Jesus has saved him from his sins. Or whether you don't believe we can have that assurance.

[pcosmar]

Sorry if that seemed too personal. I'm just trying to understand how in your view a person can have certain faith that Jesus has saved him from his sins. Or whether you don't believe we can have that assurance.

He is convinced that you cannot and so you must be content to be condemned to hell .

It is a completely random and capricious choice as to who is or is not saved and you have no say.

This has been his message and focus in each and every place he posts here.

Several disagree with this view.

[Sola_Fide]

Sorry if that seemed too personal. I'm just trying to understand how in your view a person can have certain faith that Jesus has saved him from his sins. Or whether you don't believe we can have that assurance.

Oh no, you're fine. I'm used to people here getting very personal and attacking me. But I didn't think that was personal at all.

1st John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The Christian is assured he has eternal life.

[Anti Federalist]

How do you know who is or isn't chosen?

The answer is, you don't.

So since you don't have this knowledge, what you are left with is God's command to believe fully on Jesus for salvation. And when you believe, you give all the glory to God because He is the one who opens the eyes of the blind.

OK, fine...but I could just as easily go worship a tree instead, because if I'm not chosen, there is nothing I can do about it.

Not acts, deeds, repentance, baptism or asking for and receiving salvation, grace and eternal life by accepting Christ.

None of that will do any good.

If I'm damned by God, not a chosen one in other words, then nothing I can do will change that.

[Sola_Fide]

OK, fine...but I could just as easily go worship a tree instead, because if I'm not chosen, there is nothing I can do about it.

Not acts, deeds, repentance, baptism or asking for and receiving salvation, grace and eternal life by accepting Christ.

None of that will do any good.

If I'm damned by God, not a chosen one in other words, then nothing I can do will change that.

OK, but why the focus on that? If you repent and believe the gospel, then it's not because you were smarter or more spiritual than someone else. We are all in the same lowly estate when we are born... Slaves to sin. If you turn to Him, it was because God loved you and saw to it that you would turn to Him.

So there's no need to focus on the hidden councils of God. It's for Him to know and it's for His purposes.

[Anti Federalist]

OK, but why the focus on that? If you repent and believe the gospel, then it's not because you were smarter or more spiritual than someone else. We are all in the same lowly estate when we are born... Slaves to sin. If you turn to Him, it was because God loved you and saw to it that you would turn to Him.

So there's no need to focus on the hidden councils of God. It's for Him to know and it's for His purposes.

So there is no such thing as free will?

If I decided to run amok in the next hour, go rob the convenience store, shoot the clerk, rape some women and rob banks in the morning, God saw that, knew it was coming and it serves his plan in some way?

He made me do that?

[donnay]

OK, fine...but I could just as easily go worship a tree instead, because if I'm not chosen, there is nothing I can do about it.

Not acts, deeds, repentance, baptism or asking for and receiving salvation, grace and eternal life by accepting Christ.

None of that will do any good.

If I'm damned by God, not a chosen one in other words, then nothing I can do will change that.

God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 (KJV)

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:11 (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



1 John 1:9 - (KJV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


John 3:16 (KJV) -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[georgiaboy]

God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 (KJV)

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:11 (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



1 John 1:9 - (KJV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


John 3:16 (KJV) -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And likewise

2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) -

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

[Anti Federalist]

John 3:16 (KJV) -

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well, exactly...one of the few things that are very clear in the bible, and what Christianity is based on: the understanding that eternal life and salvation is available to anybody who repents of their sins, asks forgiveness of those sins and accepts Jesus Christ as the one and only living son of God on earth and savior of all mankind.

According to Sola, this verse does not mean what it says, especially the "whosoever" bit.

[Superfluous Man]

And if I am not chosen, there is nothing I can do to achieve salvation and eternal life, correct?

There is nothing you can do. But everything that must be done, God can do for you, leaving no credit left for you to take. Would you like God to do that? Cry out to him in humility, recognizing you have nothing to commend yourself to him, and He very well might.

[pcosmar]

There is nothing you can do.

Yes there is.
Something you can do. Something you must do. Something God can help you with, but will not do for you against your will.

You must Repent. Turn away.. and choose Salvation.. Choose God over whatever you served before.
Repent and Believe.

[Superfluous Man]

Yes there is.
Something you can do. Something you must do. Something God can help you with, but will not do for you against your will.

You must Repent. Turn away.. and choose Salvation.. Choose God over whatever you served before.
Repent and Believe.

"Something God can help you with, but will not do for you against your will."

But the very help that every unrepentant person needs is a turning of their will. The fact that they will not to repent is what makes them unrepentant.

This is the original and natural state of all children of Adam.

And the only way out of it is with that help from God to which you allude, a help that manifests itself in a change of the person's will.

[pcosmar]

"Something God can help you with, but will not do for you against your will."

But the very help that every unrepentant person needs is a turning of their will. The fact that they will not to repent is what makes them unrepentant.

This is the original and natural state of all children of Adam.

And the only way out of it is with that help from God to which you allude, a help that manifests itself in a change of the person's will.

The whole Bible is a record of God Redeeming MAN..

Natural man knows he is under the curse..Fear of Death. This world is steeped in Fear.. a known commodity.

Salvation is the Good News. (gospel). Fear is not as great a motivator as Hope.
I don't preach Fear.. I bring the good news of escape,, of Life Eternal. Redemption.

Hell was not made for man and you don't have to go there. You have a choice.

[Sola_Fide]

Yes there is.
Something you can do. Something you must do. Something God can help you with, but will not do for you against your will.

You must Repent. Turn away.. and choose Salvation.. Choose God over whatever you served before.
Repent and Believe.

No. You can't do it.

Romans 8:7

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

[pcosmar]

No. You can't do it.

Perhaps you can't.

In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.

Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

But Hope exists.

[PursuePeace]

And how does this view of God help you to love others as yourself?
When God is dangling human beings (who have loved ones and people who care immensely for them) over some eternal torture of fire?
How does this help you love others as yourself?
How does this help you love God?

There is really only one view that helps you love others as yourself and love God with all of your heart.
The view of a merciful, and loving, and forgiving God. A FATHER.
One who loves His children. One who DOES CORRECT His children. One who would never turn His back on ANY of His children.
One who would leave the 99 of us, to find the 1 of us who is YET still LOST.
We're all in darkness. And one by one... He leads us into the light.
His ways are mysterious. And his mercy is far more than any mere human can imagine.
Even the worst among us... I have faith that God WILL be triumphant.
We can't venture so far into the darkness that His hand can't reach.
I have full faith in that. It's not an easy belief at times. It's full of fire.

Probably won't say much more in this thread.
Just had to share that which was in my heart at the moment.

peace ya'll..

[Sola_Fide]

And how does this view of God help you to love others as yourself?
When God is dangling human beings (who have loved ones and people who care immensely for them) over some eternal torture of fire?
How does this help you love others as yourself?
How does this help you love God?

There is really only one view that helps you love others as yourself and love God with all of your heart.
The view of a merciful, and loving, and forgiving God. A FATHER.
One who loves His children. One who DOES CORRECT His children. One who would never turn His back on ANY of His children.
One who would leave the 99 of us, to find the 1 of us who is YET still LOST.
We're all in darkness. And one by one... He leads us into the light.
His ways are mysterious. And his mercy is far more than any mere human can imagine.
Even the worst among us... I have faith that God WILL be triumphant.
We can't venture so far into the darkness that His hand can't reach.
I have full faith in that. It's not an easy belief at times. It's full of fire.

Probably won't say much more in this thread.
Just had to share that which was in my heart at the moment.

peace ya'll..

In these questions, what is missing? What's missing is the sinfulness of man and the holiness of God.

And that is the problem with your theology. You downplay man's sin and you downplay the holiness of God by thinking He winks at sin. You see, in your view man is too big and your god is too small.

But make no mistake, God is holy and won't allow sin in His presence. And He has wrath against the sin of man who is utterly sinful.

The most amazing thing about grace is that God saves even one of us.

[pcosmar]

From The Beginning Of Time

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

till the end of time.. Doing Time. on battlefield earth.

Heavens aren't in time,, as we know it. (hard to wrap ones head around)
so In the beginning, God created time. A Finite place in an infinite place.

[Sola_Fide]

till the end of time.. Doing Time. on battlefield earth.

Heavens aren't in time,, as we know it. (hard to wrap ones head around)
so In the beginning, God created time. A Finite place in an infinite place.

Yes. And God predestined His elect before time began! Think about that!

2 Timothy 1:9

He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

[pcosmar]

Yes. And God predestined His elect before time began! Think about that!

I have and I do.

I doubt you have any idea what Enoch was talking about.. because every place you read it is a quote from the prophet Enoch.

The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

That is where "the elect" comes from.

[Sola_Fide]

I have and I do.

I doubt you have any idea what Enoch was talking about.. because every place you read it is a quote from the prophet Enoch.


That is where "the elect" comes from.

That's great and all, but the book of Enoch was not written by the prophet Enoch. That is why neither the Jews or the early church recognized it as Scripture.