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Would you say the mass movement of individuals from south of the border to California has resulted in more liberty or less? That's always my hangup. The theory that people can walk around over borders is all well and good until they start changing our government for the worse and implementing more tyranny.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
Probably less.
But that doesn't tell me anything useful about who has violated anyone else's rights and what just actions may be taken against them. In order to take action against someone for violating someone else's rights, I have to treat each person as an individual and follow due process in finding them guilty of whatever crime we're talking about, and then, on the basis of their guilt of that crime, take whatever freedom-limiting actions against them are appropriate to the circumstance.
I can't punish someone because they belong to a group or come from some geographical place, just because some other people from that group or place committed some crimes.
And you think that merely not actively assisting the federal government in enforcing its immigration laws is harboring ILLEGALS [emphasis yours]?
Could you please cite the actual law about harboring illegals you're talking about?
I understand that, at least according to the stories I've seen, there does exist a federal law that does prohibit local politicians from voting to require their local government employees not to actively assist the federal government in enforcing its immigration laws. But the words "harboring illegals" wouldn't fit that by any possible reasonable understanding of their meaning in English. Just because I don't actively help the federal government hunt down someone doesn't mean I'm harboring them. And the point of this discussion is to say that such a law is wrong. If you're just saying that the law must be a just law because if you break it than you're breaking the law, well that would make no sense at all.
Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-18-2018 at 08:01 AM.
So, when a battalion of foreign troops come into your neighborhood you will view them all as peaceful individuals except for the ones you actually see cause trouble. How nice. Here's the deal, I'd have a lot more respect for the open borders position if you all didn't seem so intent on saying that every single thing about having millions of foreigners coming here is great. I'm just sick of individuals contributing to the growth of the police state here, it's not about punishing anyone. It's that no one has offered a better solution than controlling immigration.
If they're not causing trouble, then why call them a "battalion of foreign troops"?
Are you talking about actually peaceful people who violate no one's rights, who are welcomed on every property they set foot by the owners of that property, who pay their way wherever they go and work for their pay by voluntary mutual agreement with their employers, and so on?
If so, then you are stretching the sense of "battalion of foreign troops' beyond recognition.
Obviously, I would have no right to violate the rights of those people who are doing nothing other than harmlessly exercising their own rights, as well as the rights of the other Americans who want them on their properties which are rightfully theirs and not mine and with whom they're doing business.
On the other hand, if you're talking about people concerning whom we have some evidence that they either have committed some crime, are in the process of committing some crime, or have conspired to commit some crime, then for any of these reasons we may justly take action as appropriate for whatever that circumstance is. And if we suspect that any of those are the case, and we lack the evidence, then the first step is to investigate the matter until we have the evidence we need.
Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-18-2018 at 08:08 AM.
I didn't. I am using the analogy of an actual battalion of foreign troops to make the point that sometimes one must consider the effects of a group and not just individuals.
Handouts, supporting police state politicians are part of the problem. It's not about the construction crews or their nice families. I have no problem shaking the hand of an individual from any nation or having a conversation. I don't view illegal or mass immigration as the biggest problem in the world but it's affects are going to completely gut what is left of our Republic within a lifetime at this rate. I have a problem with that.Are you talking about actually peaceful people who violate no one's rights, who are welcomed on every property they set foot by the owners of that property, who pay their way wherever they go and work for their pay by voluntary mutual agreement with their employers, and so on?
If so, then you are stretching the sense of "battalion of foreign troops' beyond recognition.
Well, they tend towards contributing to the violation of our rights.Obviously, I would have no right to violate the rights of those people who are doing nothing other than harmlessly exercising their own rights, as well as the rights of the other Americans who want them here and with whom they're doing business.
Only thing that bothers me is their population seems intent on reversing all the good trends the liberty movement has started. To my knowledge virtually every one, at least 95% of the representatives from my state in districts with majority immigrant populations opposes gun rights, vaccine choice, and all other meaningful issues that we have made progress on except perhaps certain aspects of criminal justice reform. The last item won't mean much when they pass laws to make us all criminals though.On the other hand, if you're talking about people concerning whom we have some evidence that they either have committed some crime, are in the process of committing some crime, or have conspired to commit some crime, then for any of these reasons we may justly take action as appropriate for whatever that circumstance is.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
..
Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-18-2018 at 08:39 AM. Reason: duplicate post
Then my question still applies. What is it that makes them "an actual battalion of troops"?
Would it not be the case that an actual battalion of troops was involved in a conspiracy to commit crimes, even if they hadn't started committing them yet? If so, then that is the basis on which their actions can be addressed.
I saw Judge Napolitano discussing this yesterday. He said we’re not going to see this happening, and made a statement somewhat similar to yours. He focused on the word “harbor” and (as I remember it) said something like, to “harbor” them would mean they’re keeping these aliens in their homes or housing them somewhere. He was viewing the word “harbor” as a noun. But I disagree.
“Harbor” is also a verb meaning “to shelter", that is, “prevent (someone) from having to do or face something difficult or unpleasant.”
harbor
verb [with object]
1 keep (a thought or feeling, typically a negative one) in one's mind, especially secretly: she started to harbor doubts about the wisdom of their journey.
2 give a home or shelter to: woodlands that once harbored a colony of red deer.
• shelter or hide (a criminal or wanted person): he was suspected of harboring an escaped prisoner.
• carry the germs of (a disease).
3 [no object] archaic (of a ship or its crew) moor in a harbor: he might have harbored in San Francisco.State and local officials are certainly preventing illegal aliens from having to be deported. Worse, those who commit crimes are often ignored because officials don’t want to be forced to “know” that these persons are here illegally. They purposely choose to do this, in order to maintain an element of plausible deniability.shelter
verb [with object]
protect or shield from something harmful, especially bad weather: the hut sheltered him from the cold wind.
• [no object] find refuge or take cover from bad weather or danger: people were sheltering under store canopies and trees.
• prevent (someone) from having to do or face something difficult or unpleasant.
• protect (income) from taxation: only your rental income can be sheltered.
Furthermore, even using the word “harbor” as a noun:
Rather than keeping these persons in their own homes (where they could take care of these guests as lavishly as they choose!), these officials have simply dictated that their entire city/state is a "harbor", permitting illegal aliens to hide within them - at the expense of everyone else in that city or town.
Unlike a pot smoker, the costs of maintaining each illegal alien, affects every citizen in that city/state by reducing the amount of tax money available to maintain that city or state for the legal citizens - none of whom has consented to supporting illegal aliens. Then, there is the overcrowding, the increased impact on local infrastructure, and the lax treatment - often totally ignoring - of those who commit serious crimes. I see this as a violation of the rights of the citizens.
You can read 8 U.S. Code § 1324 - Bringing in and harboring certain aliens here - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1324
Last edited by Valli6; 01-18-2018 at 11:20 AM.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
“…where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact … to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them…” Thomas Jefferson
Nullification was never intended to allow state and local governments to ignore valid federal laws.Would you support arresting state or local officials who invited a foreign government to build a military base on our soil?There is not a fundamental difference between that and the illegal alien invasion.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
I was hoping you would reveal to us what the benefits of mass, low skilled immigration are for the population at large. Would it be too much to ask you to stop trolling for a second and provide us with the pertinent info? i am sure everybody is excited to learn something new. You can ask your superiors if you don't have it handy.
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