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Thread: Army getting motivated about a new rifle/caliber system

  1. #1

    Army getting motivated about a new rifle/caliber system

    After carrying the M16 or one of its cousins across the globe for more than half a century, soldiers could get a peek at a new prototype assault rifle that fires a larger round by 2020.

    Army researchers are testing half a dozen ammunition variants in "intermediate calibers," which falls between the current 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm rounds, to create a new light machine gun and inform the next-generation individual assault rifle/round combo.

    The weapon designs being tested will be "unconventional," officials said, and likely not one that is currently commercially available.

    Some intermediate calibers being tested include the .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor, .264 USA as well as other non-commercial intermediate calibers, including cased telescoped ammo, Army officials said.



    Some of the concerns Scales said he believes are driving military leaders to finally look at an alternative to the 5.56 mm and the M16/M4 include:

    — Improvements in adversaries’ body armor, which make the 5.56 mm less lethal.

    — Current adversaries such as the Islamic State terror group and others using bigger rounds with more reach against U.S. troops, creating an overmatch.

    — Jamming problems with M16/M4 variants that continue to plague the design.

    At the 2016 National Defense Industrial Association Armament Systems Forum, retired Brig. Gen. Dave Grange and Jim Schatz, an Army veteran and weapons expert who has since passed away, each gave presentations calling for a new "intermediate caliber" in the 6.5 mm range.

    They also referenced the Russian, Islamic State and al-Qaida advantages with longer-reaching and more lethal weapons, including reports of Russian work on their own 6.5 mm assault rifle.


    Full story at: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...e-m4-and-5-56/


    I fully get the issue of weight with a 7.62 rifle due to ammo...but is it just me or if they are going to look at larger rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor, then wouldn't the 7.62 be more sensible? I understand the Creedmoor gets more travel time at super sonic speeds lending to long range accuracy, as well as having less recoil than the 7.62, but it's pretty much a niche round shot mainly by people who reload. Won't ammo costs alone make that a hard contract figure to sell over a 7.62 platform?

    I think the main line of thought is maintaining (or at least staying in the realm) of the AR platform form for familiarity, but I have a short stroke piston Sig Sauer 716 Patrol that is an AR platform and that girl will push some 7.62 down range all day. But, again....she's a heavy girl. Definitely a man's gun.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    I fully get the issue of weight with a 7.62 rifle due to ammo...but is it just me or if they are going to look at larger rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor, then wouldn't the 7.62 be more sensible? I understand the Creedmoor gets more travel time at super sonic speeds lending to long range accuracy, as well as having less recoil than the 7.62, but it's pretty much a niche round shot mainly by people who reload. Won't ammo costs alone make that a hard contract figure to sell over a 7.62 platform?

    Whatever they select will cease to be a niche round overnight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
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    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Whatever they select will cease to be a niche round overnight.
    I'm hip. I know part of Sig's contract with their new pistol for the military, part of the sweetener for their deal was full service to include parts, magazines, add ons......and ammo. But I say that regarding the ammo because the Army has done it before. In the linked article, they talk about the M1 in how it was offered in two calibers....the .30 caliber and also the .276, with the Army going with .30 due to ammo surpluses (as well as the Great Depression).

    Don't get me wrong.....I'm not knocking the 6.5 Creedmoor. LOL....to be honest, the more I read on it the more I want to get a rifle chambered for it. I just don't see the military going that far outside the box with that caliber when 7.62 is readily available as well as the military have thousands and thousands of those rounds already, as well as having rifles chambered in that caliber in service already as well.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    I just don't see the military going that far outside the box with that caliber when 7.62 is readily available as well as the military have thousands and thousands of those rounds already, as well as having rifles chambered in that caliber in service already as well.
    It makes sense, but obviously this same issue didn't stop them from choosing 5.56 last time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It makes sense, but obviously this same issue didn't stop them from choosing 5.56 last time.
    Good point
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  7. #6
    How long before they develop smart bullets? Program in the identity of the person you want assassinated, have strategically flying drones capable to print out the bullet all around the globe, end of story.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    How long before they develop smart bullets? Program in the identity of the person you want assassinated, have strategically flying drones capable to print out the bullet all around the globe, end of story.
    lol....ironically we're probably not that far at all from something like that...if it doesn't already exist in a government lab. Really it wouldn't be all that hard provided you had access to satellites for constant GPS information input as well as using satellites to incorporate algorithms for tracking once you set parameters that were target specific.

    Damn it.....what was that Tom Selleck movie with Gene Simmons?


    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  9. #8
    Well why not just slowly transition to .308 ?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It makes sense, but obviously this same issue didn't stop them from choosing 5.56 last time.
    The 5.56 was chosen by bean counters.

    It is and has been a horrible combat choice, and that is not just my opinion alone.

    I have not had any range time for years,, but love what I am seeing from 300 Blackout.
    And is an easy transition for the AR 15 platform.

    just an observation.. never liked the 223.. It's a varmint gun. good for small game.

    The Creedmore Is a great long range round. Good for overwatch,, poor close combat.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-15-2018 at 02:19 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    The 5.56 was chosen by bean counters.

    It is and has been a horrible combat choice, and that is not just my opinion alone.

    I have not had any range time for years,, but love what I am seeing from 300 Blackout.
    And is an easy transition for the AR 15 platform.

    just an observation.. never liked the 223.. It's a varmint gun. good for small game.

    The Creedmore Is a great long range round. Good for overwatch,, poor close combat.
    I like the 300 Blackout round as well for a situational round speaking to running suppressed.

    Now that Sig Sauer addressed issues with the MCX and have the Gen 2 we're planning on getting one in 300 Blackout (we'll also get both 5.56 and 7.62x39 conversion kits for the rifle) and doing the tax stamp work to get a suppressor for it. I had no idea just how quiet sub sonic 300 blackout run through a can was.

    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    I like the 300 Blackout round as well for a situational round speaking to running suppressed.

    Now that Sig Sauer addressed issues with the MCX and have the Gen 2 we're planning on getting one in 300 Blackout (we'll also get both 5.56 and 7.62x39 conversion kits for the rifle) and doing the tax stamp work to get a suppressor for it. I had no idea just how quiet sub sonic 300 blackout run through a can was.

    Been researching,, cuz it's all I can do.

    If I were ever to build a ghost it would be in 300blk.
    aside from the subsonic befits,, It is simply a better round,, with choices in bullet weights/types and works well with different barrel lengths.. (good in short barrels)

    It would be my choice for a PDW.

    the one and only place where the 5.56 is worth a damn is a clear shot at 600 years. out of a 20 in barrel.

    I'm never going to be shooting anything 600 yards away. and if I was there are better guns for that.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    I don't have nearly the level of gun knowledge that some here do, so bear with my questions.

    But why is caliber, as a single variable, useful as a way to identify a round's ballistics or armor-penetrating ability?

    Caliber is just the bullet's diameter, right? A bullet of any given caliber could have various lengths, weights, and be propelled by loads of various amounts of energy.

    It seems to me that, especially when it comes to penetrating armor, the smaller the diameter the better, if you can propel a heavier load with greater force and still have that smaller diameter. It may be that a typical .223 round as used in M-16s can't penetrate armor as well as a typical .308 from an M-1 could. But I bet that if bullets had equal weight and were shot with equal loads, the .223 would penetrate better than the .308 precisely because of being smaller in diameter.

    Likewise, that smaller diameter, by itself, without considering the other variables, doesn't tell us anything about how far the bullet can travel.

    Am I missing something?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I don't have nearly the level of gun knowledge that some here do, so bear with my questions.

    But why is caliber, as a single variable, useful as a way to identify a round's ballistics or armor-penetrating ability?

    Caliber is just the bullet's diameter, right? A bullet of any given caliber could have various lengths, weights, and be propelled by loads of various amounts of energy.

    It seems to me that, especially when it comes to penetrating armor, the smaller the diameter the better, if you can propel a heavier load with greater force and still have that smaller diameter. It may be that a typical .223 round as used in M-16s can't penetrate armor as well as a typical .308 from an M-1 could. But I bet that if bullets had equal weight and were shot with equal loads, the .223 would penetrate better than the .308 precisely because of being smaller in diameter.

    Likewise, that smaller diameter, by itself, without considering the other variables, doesn't tell us anything about how far the bullet can travel.

    Am I missing something?
    Caliber is a limiting factor in bullet weight.
    Can you imaging trying to stabilize a 200gr .22.

    With a larger caliber there is more weight potential,, while maintaining a bullet shape.
    More weight=more energy on target.

    Smaller bullets .22 are lighter and faster,, which gives a somewhat flatter trajectory.

    Bullet type and shape also are considerations as well as composition.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post

    Am I missing something?
    in case I missed anything,, a good comparison.
    https://www.pewpewtactical.com/300-b...k-vs-5-56-223/
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Caliber is a limiting factor in bullet weight.
    Can you imaging trying to stabilize a 200gr .22.
    I honestly don't know. I'm sure there's a principle involved. And you must be right or else ballistics wouldn't be complicated. But if the bullet is spinning around its front to back axis as it should be, why not?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    in case I missed anything,, a good comparison.
    https://www.pewpewtactical.com/300-b...k-vs-5-56-223/
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again."



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again."
    NOT necessary,,



    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-15-2018 at 05:52 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I honestly don't know. I'm sure there's a principle involved. And you must be right or else ballistics wouldn't be complicated. But if the bullet is spinning around its front to back axis as it should be, why not?
    When a projectile's length to width ratio exceeds 7:1 spin no longer stabilizes and instead causes destabilization, the only alternative is fin stabilization which is much less effective.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #19
    5.56 was a disaster and the fact that we kept it so long is a crime.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When a projectile's length to width ratio exceeds 7:1 spin no longer stabilizes and instead causes destabilization, the only alternative is fin stabilization which is much less effective.
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Caliber is a limiting factor in bullet weight.
    Can you imaging trying to stabilize a 200gr .22.

    With a larger caliber there is more weight potential,, while maintaining a bullet shape.
    More weight=more energy on target.

    Smaller bullets .22 are lighter and faster,, which gives a somewhat flatter trajectory.

    Bullet type and shape also are considerations as well as composition.
    More weight AND velocity impart more energy.

    Imagine dropping a one ton boulder from 50 feet....it'll leave a large mud hole. Drop that same boulder from 1 mile.....and you create a crater the size of a large house.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I don't have nearly the level of gun knowledge that some here do, so bear with my questions.

    But why is caliber, as a single variable, useful as a way to identify a round's ballistics or armor-penetrating ability?

    Caliber is just the bullet's diameter, right? A bullet of any given caliber could have various lengths, weights, and be propelled by loads of various amounts of energy.

    It seems to me that, especially when it comes to penetrating armor, the smaller the diameter the better, if you can propel a heavier load with greater force and still have that smaller diameter. It may be that a typical .223 round as used in M-16s can't penetrate armor as well as a typical .308 from an M-1 could. But I bet that if bullets had equal weight and were shot with equal loads, the .223 would penetrate better than the .308 precisely because of being smaller in diameter.

    Likewise, that smaller diameter, by itself, without considering the other variables, doesn't tell us anything about how far the bullet can travel.

    Am I missing something?
    Don't feel bad at all bro. Ballistics is a lot more complicated than many people make it out to be, and I don't really profess to be any kind of expert either.

    I can half ass answer some of your questions though...


    1) It seems to me that, especially when it comes to penetrating armor, the smaller the diameter the better, if you can propel a heavier load with greater force and still have that smaller diameter.

    I believe this held / holds true with armor like kevlar threading. Like that old kevlar could stop a round, but not a knife. The advent of plate armor is a different animal though. And the retort to it ballistically was hardened ammo (steel core).

    2) But I bet that if bullets had equal weight and were shot with equal loads, the .223 would penetrate better than the .308 precisely because of being smaller in diameter.

    You have to think of it along the lines of physics: Mass + Velocity = Energy

    It's why people will call a semi-auto handgun round a compromise round due to their shortened cartridge length (limits the amount of propellant) when compared to a revolver cartridge.


    Now, those are VERY dumbed down replies and by no means do I proclaim them to be 100% accurate. But that's how I best understand it. I know we have members who are very well versed in this subject and maybe they can explain it better.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  26. #23
    When comparing ballistics there are multiple factors. Plus and minus of each variable.

    Some deal with trajectory. Light fast bullets have a flatter trajectory,, while heave bullets have a significantly arched trajectory.

    A heavy bullet will carry more energy to target.. Which is where Effective range is a consideration.

    I tend to look at Terminal Ballistics. Energy on Target .. ft/lbs.. and at what ranges.

    Each tool has a job.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Don't feel bad at all bro. Ballistics is a lot more complicated than many people make it out to be, and I don't really profess to be any kind of expert either.

    I can half ass answer some of your questions though...


    1) It seems to me that, especially when it comes to penetrating armor, the smaller the diameter the better, if you can propel a heavier load with greater force and still have that smaller diameter.

    I believe this held / holds true with armor like kevlar threading. Like that old kevlar could stop a round, but not a knife. The advent of plate armor is a different animal though. And the retort to it ballistically was hardened ammo (steel core).

    2) But I bet that if bullets had equal weight and were shot with equal loads, the .223 would penetrate better than the .308 precisely because of being smaller in diameter.

    You have to think of it along the lines of physics: Mass + Velocity = Energy

    It's why people will call a semi-auto handgun round a compromise round due to their shortened cartridge length (limits the amount of propellant) when compared to a revolver cartridge.


    Now, those are VERY dumbed down replies and by no means do I proclaim them to be 100% accurate. But that's how I best understand it. I know we have members who are very well versed in this subject and maybe they can explain it better.
    When trying to penetrate armor you are correct, because of the "snowshoe" effect a larger caliber will not penetrate as well and the more weight you have per square inch of cross section the better the projectile will penetrate, however if you exceed a 7:1 length to width ratio you will have to use fin stabilization and once the projectile is past the armor or if there is no armor a larger caliber is more effective because it dumps it's energy into the target faster and is less likely to pass through with energy still un-applied to the target.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When trying to penetrate armor you are correct, because of the "snowshoe" effect a larger caliber will not penetrate as well and the more weight you have per square inch of cross section the better the projectile will penetrate, however if you exceed a 7:1 length to width ratio you will have to use fin stabilization and once the projectile is past the armor or if there is no armor a larger caliber is more effective because it dumps it's energy into the target faster and is less likely to pass through with energy still un-applied to the target.
    I understand (albeit a rudimentary understanding). It's why I carry 124 gr Hydra shoks in my .357 magnum instead of 158 gr. The extra weight of the 158 makes a through and through more possible and will take the kinetic energy with it, whereas that 124 has better chances of staying inside the target and dumping that energy inside the target.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    When comparing ballistics there are multiple factors. Plus and minus of each variable.

    Some deal with trajectory. Light fast bullets have a flatter trajectory,, while heave bullets have a significantly arched trajectory.

    A heavy bullet will carry more energy to target.. Which is where Effective range is a consideration.

    I tend to look at Terminal Ballistics. Energy on Target .. ft/lbs.. and at what ranges.

    Each tool has a job.
    I'm the same. I try to maximize dumping as much energy inside the target as I can without passing through
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    I'm the same. I try to maximize dumping as much energy inside the target as I can without passing through
    That is where bullet type (another variable) comes in.
    Fragment, Expansion, or Penetration.

    I never liked the character of the 5.56 nato.
    Perhaps better ammo is an improvement but I prefer .30 cal or better.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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