Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Americas Biblical Government

  1. #1

    Americas Biblical Government

    TheUnited States aBiblical Government?


    TheAmerican Union Modeled After Ancient Israel



    “Ourfamily of states, so many sovereignties governing themselves, yetconsenting to be governed, like constellations each with its ownorder and laws, but all obeying one great rule, suggesting, asorganized communities, more than any other nation, the divinepattern of the tribes in the Hebrew commonwealth.”
    -NehemiahAdams Pastor Harvard graduate 1855
    “Thenational government was headed by Moses, and there was a nationallegislature composed of a council of seventy elders, or what we wouldcall senators [exodus 19.7 24.1 Numbers 11 16-17] Each of the twelve“states” [tribes] had its own Governor and legislature, orcouncil of ruling elders [senators.]”
    -David Barton Natural Born President




    “Godsmodel for governments purpose and administration was set forth in hisestablishment of the nation of Israel whose form of governmentoperated by rule of righteousness within twelve separate limitedjurisdictions [tribes] and consequently was a federation.”
    --Timothyand Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


    Whilenot perfect, the Unitedstateswas originally a unionofstates, afederationof states as originally created by the founders most resembled of anynation on earth that of Gods original model for government. And Ibelieve received Gods blessing more than any other nation for it. The original plan for Israel from God was of a decentralized tribalunion/nation with its foundation being the laws of God that connectedthe loosely held tribes into the nation of Israel. In Gods laws hehad given unalienable rights and a republicanform of governmentwith elected officials. Much how the united states was a union ofstates under a constitution [derived from laws/principles of godslaw] in a republican form of government. Influential books such asCommon Sense by Thomas Paine showed the biblical foundation forrepublicanism and the pagan origins of Monarchy.
    “Oneof the most important modes for war and for politics in general wasold testament isreal.”
    -JamesP Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the AmericanRevolution Oxford u Press 2013
    “Israel,being a most prefect resemblance of these American colonies.”
    -CyprionStrong of Chatham Connecticut 1777
    “Hebraicrepublicanism...could serve not only to tear down monarchy, it couldalso build up a constitutional government.”
    -JamesP Byrd SacredScripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford uPress 2013



    Tothe early Israelite thelawof Godwas the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all underthe authority of the lawas in the United states where elected officials are servants underthe constitution


    16 Whenthey have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one andanother; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
    -Exodus18.16


    “Whereis the king in America? He reins above....in America the law isking.”
    -ThomasPaine common Sense

    43 Yetit shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become greatamong you shall be your servant. 44 Andwhoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.

    -Mark10 43-44


    Besidesbeing held accountable by the constitution and “we the people”who could elect our officials out of office, one way our electedofficials acknowledged the higher authority was through prayerproclamations. Between 1622 and 1815 1,500 proclamations of prayer orfasting were given in the united states. 300 were given by thechurch, 1,200 by the local, state or federal government. JohnAdams the second U.S president gave this one in 1798

    Bythe President of the United States of America A PROCLAMATION -
    “Asthe safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentiallydepend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God;and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only anindispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whosenatural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality andpiety, without which social happiness cannot exist....”



    JohnHancock called for state prayer Oct 15 1791 as the Governor ofMassachusetts-
    “Andabove all, not only to continue to us the enjoyment of our civilRights and Liberties; but the great and most important Blessing, theGospel of Jesus Christ. I do earnestly recommend, that we may jointhe penitent confession of our Sins, and implore the furthercontinuance of the Divine Protection, and Blessings of Heaven uponthis People; especially that He would be graciously pleased todirect, and prosper the Administration of the Federal Government, andof this, and the other States in the Union that all may bow to theScepter of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and the whole Earth be filled withhis Glory.”

    Samuel Adams Governor of Massachusetts in 1795 proclamation of prayer and fasting-
    “wemay unitedly implore the forgiveness of our Sins, through the meritsof Jesus Christ, and humbly supplicate our Heavenly Father, to grantus the aids of his Grace, for the amendment of our Hearts andLives.”

    “Thehighest glory of the American Revolution was this:it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civilgovernment with the principles of Christianity…From the day of the Declaration…theywere bound by the laws of God,which they all, and by thelaws of the gospel, whichthey nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.”
    - John Quincy Adams 1821




    OurBiblical Constitution


    “…thereligion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion ofChrist and His apostles…This is genuine Christianity, and to thiswe owe our free constitutions of government…the moral principlesand precepts contained in the Scriptures oughtto form the basis of all of our civil constitutions and laws.” -Noah Webster 1833
    “Thewritten constitution was the child of the pulpit.”
    -AliceBaldwin the new England clergy and the American revolution


    Politicalscience professors from the university of Houston did a study on15,000 writings from the founding era that had impact on theformation of the Constitution. They identified 3,154 quotes by thefounders on where there ideas came form to form the Constitution.Their work was published as “The origins of AmericanConstitutionalism.” they found 34% of the quotes came directlyfrom bible as the main source, 8.3% came from Montesquieu, 7.9% fromBlackstone, and next was John Locke at 6.9%. Yet Montesquieu,Blackstone and Locke all often quoted the bible in their works forproper government. So the actual impact from the bible is fargreater. For example in Locks most influential work a 400 page “2Trinities on Government” he referred to the bible 1,500 times.


    “Ofall the nations in the world . . . most justly called a Christiannation...has so largely shaped and molded it."
    -Supreme CourtJustice David Brewer 1837-1910



    Everythingin the declaration of Independence such as all men created equal, theconsent of the governed, etc was already preached widely by pastorsbefore 1776 for proper biblical government. Likewise what the Britishwere doing such as taxation without representation and the stamp actwere shown to be forms of tyranny in the bible. These were thetopics of many sermons in America that incited people towards therevolution. The reverend John Wise who preached these sermons wascredited with the ideas that formed the declaration of independence.When John Adams was asked who was most responsible for the revolutionhe named the Rev Samuel Cooper, the rev John Mayhew, the Rev GeorgeWitfeild, and the Rev Charles Chauncy.


    Republicanism


    “[O]urcitizens should early understand that the genuine source of correctrepublican principles is the Bible, particularly the NewTestament, or the Christian religion.
    -Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 6.




    "TheBible contains the most profound philosophy, the most perfectmorality and the most refined policy that ever was conceived uponearth. It is the most republican book in the world,and therefore I will still revere it,"
    -JohnAdams




    Article4 section 4 of the constitution gives Americans a republican form ofgovernment. The idea of elected official comes from Exodus 18.21which was radical thinking at the time as no other country Americanscame from had a republic. They elected christian leaders fromamong them over local, county, state, and federal levels or “tens”“fifties” “hundreds” and “thousands”.
    "Furthermore,you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, menof truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall placethese over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fiftiesand of tens.
    -Exodus18.21


    “letit be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose forrulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [ex 18.21]. Thepreservation of a republican government depends on the faithfuldischarge of this duty;
    -NoahWebster Noah Webster History of the United States 1832


    Someof the state constitutions were as follows.


    1776Delawares
    “Everyperson who shall be chosen a member of either house must say “I doprofess faith in god the father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ, hisonly son, and in the holy spirit, one God and blessed forevermore,and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and newtestaments to be given by divine inspiration.”

    Pennsylvania/Vermont
    “Eachmember of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make andsubscribe the following I do believe in one god the creator andGovernor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punisher of thewicked.”

    Tennessee 1796
    “Noperson who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards andpunishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of thisState.”


    Arepublican government is not a democracy a form of government thefounders hated and was seen as tyrannical. In a republic majoritydoes not rule, thelawis the ultimate authority. All people are held under the law. Ifprivate property is protected in a republican form of government, itmatters not if 51% say they now want to steal your land to use fortheir own purposes. In a republic built on gods law, murder willalways be murder even if the majority one day decide its ok tomurder.


    “Ihave always considered Christianity as the strong ground ofrepublicanism.”
    -Benjamin Rush, letter to ThomasJefferson on August 22, 1800


    [thebible] “That book, Sir, is the Rock upon which our republic rests.”
    -AndrewJackson




    OurBiblical Laws



    “Thefundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on theMount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from theteachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah andSt. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If wedon't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finallywind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe inrights for anybody except the state.”
    -HarryTruman


    “TheBible must be considered as the central source of all truths by witchmen are to be guided in government.”
    -NoahWebster Value of the Bible and excellence of the Christian Religion1834


    Mostof our laws and principles that led to the declaration andconstitution derive from the bible. Early American law books had ourlaws with the bible versus for justification of why they were there.Blackstones 1766 “commentaries on the law” became thefinal word in courts and was a primary legal source. Throughout hiswork he sited the bible as justification for the laws. Charles Finneystudied law and became a christian by reading Blackstones work.There was so much scripture in the law textbook that he converted andbecame a christian. He than went on to become a famous Evangelist inthe second great awakening. Blackstone also said “No human laws areof any validity, if contrary to this...the holy scriptures.”


    “Thefoundations of our society and our government rest so much on theteachings of the Bible thatit would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachingswould cease to be practically universal in our country.”
    -1929President Calvin Coolidge


    Separationof powers comes from Jeremiah 17.9. The idea of three branches ofgovernment comes from Isaiah 33.22. Tax exemption for churches Ezra7.24. Article 1 section 8 of the constitution on uniform immigrationlaws see Leviticus 19.34. Article2 section 1 paragraph 5 see Deuteronomy 17.15. article 3 section 3see Deuteronomy 17.6. Provision against attainder see Ezekiel 18.20.Theright to jury for serious crimes comes from Numbers 35 24-26. Theright to a defendant in court and to know the charges against youcomes from John 7.51 and Proverbs 18.17.Cannotbe convicted but by the testimony of two witnesses Deuteronomy 19.15.That you must have an accuser in court comes form Jesus and thewoman found in adultery when he said “Where are your accusers? When Jesus did not open his mouth to accuse himself at his trialgives the right of not self incriminating, the fifth amendment. Thefirst welfare reform in America was because of Timothy 5.8 and 2Thessalonians 3.10 Ideas suchas privateproperty and the free enterprise system comes from the bible. Article1 section 1 of the constitution comes from Ezekiel. In Numberschapter 1 gods economy for the military was armed citizenry not astanding army. This is why the United States had a very smallnational army and each state had militias the strongest units in theland. And many more.


    “T]heChristian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of allgenuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civilgovernment of a republican form can exist and be durable in which theprinciples of Christianity have not a controlling influence.”
    -NoahWebster



    Ourlaws were so closely aligned with Christianity that in 1811 in thecourt case of Peoples vs Ruggles aman was handing out anti-Jesus, anti-god, anti-bible papers, so hewas charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attackon thecountry.The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity, andan attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of thecountry.


    "Thisis a Christian nation. . . . [T]he calling of this republic aChristian nation is not a mere pretence, but a recognition of anhistorical, legal, and social truth"
    -Justice David Brewer(1837-1910), appointed to the Court by President Benjamin Harrison



    “Humanlaw must rest its authority ultimately, upon the authority of thatlaw, which is divine.”
    -JamesWilson Signer of the declaration Supreme Court Justice



    BiblicalEducation


    "TheBible was America's basic text book in all fields."
    -Noah Webster Thefather of public education in America


    [T]heonly means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms ofgovernment is the universal educationof our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of theBible.
    -BenjaminRush



    “Incolonial times, theBible was the primary tool in the educational process.In fact, according to Columbia University Professor Dr. Lawrence A.Cremin, the Bible was “the single most primary source for theintellectual history of colonial America.” From their knowledge ofthe Bible, a highly literate, creative people emerged.”
    -Swanson,M.-E. 1983. Teaching Children the Bible. Mayflower Institute Journal.1: 5.





    “EarlyAmerican textbooks were throughley christian. The Bible was thecentral text.”
    -StephenMcDowell The Bible America's Source of law and Liberty ProvidenceFoundation 2016

    Schoolsin America were established so everyone could read the biblethemselves. Universities were started to train minsters. In 1782 asan act of congress they published an official bible for use inschools. Our education system included the bible and teachingChristianity as a God reveled system. The Bible was the basictextbook and used far more often in school [sometimes as onlytextbook often due to availability] than any other source. PatrickHenry said the bible should be read in our schools in preference toany other or all combined. The first federal law on education camefrom the northwest ordinance article 3 signed by Washington in 1789. In it, it said, if schools want to be a part of united states theymust teach religion, morality, and than education. And as suprmeecourt justice John Marshall said “The American populationis entirely christian, and with us, Christianity and religion areidentical.” Benjamin Rush the “Father of public schoolsunder the constitution” in 1790 wrote “The mode of educationproper in a republic” and said the three primaryresponsibilities of schools was, first of all, to love and serveGod. Second, love of country. Third love of family. The new Englandprimer was the first textbook published in America, it was theprimary source outside the bible used until 1930. This text wasinterwoven with the bible, for example kids were taught








    Thisso ingrained the bible into the minds of its citizens that a Europeanobserver said in America youwere as likely to here a deep theological debate in a bar, as youwere in a seminary.Because of this upbringing americans viewed the bible as theauthority on allsubjects,not just salvation. And historian George Banecroft said in Americatheir was “In every hand a Bible. Every home a house of prayer.”


    “Thebible was accepted as the ultimate authority on economics andpolitics no less than on religion and morals.”
    -ChristopherHill Historian
    “Thebible was deemed universally relevant...single most importantcultural influence”
    --LawrenceA Cremin


    “Thereis no country in the whole world in which the christian religionretains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America.”
    -Alexis de Tocqueville



    Theculture and education were saturated with the bible. Websters 1828dictionary defined “right” as


    Right-In morals and religion, just; equitable; accordant to thestandard of truth and justice or the will of God. That aloneis right inthe sight of God, which is consonant to his will or law; this beingthe only perfect standard of truth and justice. In social andpolitical affairs, that is right whichis consonant to the laws and customs of a country, provided theselaws and customs are not repugnant to the laws of God. A man'sintentions may be right thoughhis actions may be wrong in consequence of a defect in judgment.


    Property-Theexclusive right of possessing, enjoying and disposing of a thing;ownership. In the beginning of the world, the Creator gave to mandominion over the earth, over the fish of the sea and the fowls ofthe air, and over every living thing. This is the foundation ofman's propertyin the earth and inall its productions.


    "Educationis useless without the Bible."
    -NoahWebster


    “Anation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prizethe rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in theregion of ignorance that tyranny begins.”
    -Benjamin Fraklin



    Howevertwice in America before 1900 schools tried to teach education withoutChristianity. In1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach moralitybut not Christianity. It went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard1844. the supreme Court said to the school


    “whymay not the bible and especially the new testament beread and taughtas divine revaluation in school?its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles ofmorality communicated where can the purist principles of morality belearned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”
    They ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supremecourt case church of holy trinity vs united states. when apublic school tried to get Christianity out the court said


    “Nopurpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislationstate or national because this is a religious people...this is a Christian nation.”

    Theysited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of stategovernments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christiannation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 wasenough.


    “Over300 court cases in the past two centuries have said that America is achristian nation.”
    -DavidBarton American heritage Series



    WashingtonD.C
    "Inthe United States, Christianity is the original, spontaneous, andnational religion"
    -Constitutional law professor EdwardMansfield (1801-1880)



    Ourcapital building was authorized by congress for use as a church. By1867 it was one of the largest in the country. Members ofcongress studied the bible in the white house during secession. The first time the founders met in congress on sep 17 1774 theyopened with prayer and than studied four chapters of the bible. TheWashington monument has multiple bible verses inscribed on it, suchas Proverbs 10.7 John 5.39 and others. Below are just a few of thebiblical inscriptions that can be found in D.C for dozens more see
    https://shop.wallbuilders.com/the-am...-dvd-boxed-set



    Mosesholding ten commandments Over Supreme Court




    Insidethe Supreme Court Room Display of the 10 commandments




    TenCommandments in the floor of the National Archives





    https://www.aoc.gov/art/relief-portr...awgivers/moses
    MosesNationalStatuary Hall





    “proclaimliberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.”
    -Leviticus25.10 Liberty Bell Inscription




    -Micah6.8 Inscribed on the walls at the library on congress Alsoinscribedare Psalm 19.1 Proverbs 4.7 and John 1.5




    GutenbergBible Library of Congress




    Roomin the capital justoff the rotundareservedfor prayer for members of congress. George Washington knelling inprayer Psalm 16.1 inscribed




    Insidethe rotunda the pilgrims led in prayer by chaplain Brewster with openbible thatreads thenew testament according to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ





    Quotes


    "Hadthe people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt towar against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangledin its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution andthe amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity shouldbe encouraged, not any one sect [denomination]. Any attempt to leveland discard all religion would have been viewed with universalindignation. . . . In this age there can be no substitute forChristianity; that, in its general principles, is the greatconservative element on which we must rely for the purity andpermanence of free institutions"
    -HOUSEJUDICIARY COMMITTEE 1852-1853
    “Theonly foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can beno liberty, and liberty is the object of all republican governments.”
    -BenjaminRush, founding father
    “Thegreat Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds oursystem together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines andtheir Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
    -HouseJudiciary Committee 1855

    [T]he Christian religion – itsgeneral principles – must ever be regarded among us as thefoundation of civil society
    Danial webster


    “OurConstitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It iswholly inadequate to the government of any other.” -John Adams

    "Thisis a Christian Nation"
    Harry Truman

    “Itis unnecessary for us, however, to consider what would be the legaleffect of a devise in Pennsylvania for the establishment of a schoolor college for the propagation of Judaism, or Deism, or any otherform of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in aChristian country.”
    -Vidalv. Girard’s Executors, 43 U. S. 127, 198 (1844)
    SENATEJUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the lawdemands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legaldisabilities, but fromchoice and education;and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected,what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"
    "[T]heteachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our wholecivic and social life that it would be literally….impossible for usto figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teaching wereremoved."
    -Teddy Roosevelt

    "Oneof the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is thatChristianity is a part of the Common Law. . . . There never has beena period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity aslying at its foundations. . . . I verily believe Christianitynecessary to the support of civil society. In [our] republic, therewould seem to be a peculiar propriety in viewing the Christianreligion as the great basis on which it must rest for its support andpermanence"
    -Justice Joseph Story (1779-1845) was appointedto the Court by President James Madison.



    Has[government] any solid foundation? Any chief cornerstone?... I thinkit has an everlasting foundation in the unchangeable will of God…The sum of my argument is that civil government is of God.
    -Jamesotis

    religionand virtue are the only foundations not only of republicanism and ofall free government but of social felicity under all governments andin all combinations of human society.
    -John Adams

    “Americawas born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousnesswhich are derived from the Holy Scriptures.”
    -WoodrowWilson 1913
    “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our prevalent notions of the character of God, the great moral governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions.”

    -WilliamMcGuffey “McGuffey's Reader” for Schools 1836
    “I’velived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincingproofs I see of this truth—that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is itprobable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have beenassured, Sir, in thesacred writings that“except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it.” I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurringaid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than thebuilders of Babel.”
    -BenjaminFranklin 1787
    “In regard to this Great Book (The Bible), I have but to say, it is the best gift God had given to man. All the good The Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.”

    -Abraham Lincoln
    “They were a people of the book, the founding ideas came from the bible.”
    -Stephen McDowell The Bible America's Source of law and Liberty Providence Foundation 2016

    “Christianity is and always has been part of common law”
    -Updeghraph V the Commonwealth 1824 supreme court of Penn
    “The christian religion is part of common law”
    -Vidal V Girad's Executors 1844
    ”By our form of government, the christian religion is the established religion.”
    -Runkel V Weinemiller 1799 Supreme Court Maryland
    “The American nation had been founded by intellectuals who had accepted a world view that was based upon Biblical authority.”
    -historian Gilman Ostrander Ostrander, G. M. 1971. The Evolutionary Outlook, 1875- 1900. Clio, MI: Marston Press, 1.
    “…(my) great joy and glory that, in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of The Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world.”
    -Theodore Roosevelt 1909

    "Americawas born a Christian nation – America was born to exemplify thatdevotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from therevelations of Holy Scripture"
    -Woodrow Wilson

    "Formany years, my hope for the perpetuity of our institutions has restedupon Bible morality and the general dissemination of Christianprinciples. This is an element which did not exist in the ancientrepublics. It is a basis on which free governments may be maintainedthrough all time. . . . Free government is not a self-moving machine.. . . Our mission of freedom is not carried out by brute force, bycanon law, or any other law except the moral law and those Christianprinciples which are found in the Scriptures"
    -Justice JohnMcLean (1785-1861) was appointed to the Court by President AndrewJackson.



    "Finally,let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fatherswere brought hither by their high veneration for the Christianreligion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. Theysought to incorporate its principles with the elements of theirsociety, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions,civil, political, or literary
    -DanielWebster
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 06-23-2018 at 02:37 PM.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    Common Objections

    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "The real object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary among christian sects, and to prevent any national establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government."
    -Joseph Story 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    So under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    The limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.

    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished.

    President of the United States of America A Proclamation

    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584

    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2 months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.

    The Treaty of Tripoli

    “On its face, that clause appears to be nondebatable and final, but what the critics fail to acknowledge is that they have lifted eighteen words out of a sentence that is eighty-one words long, thereby appearing to make it say something that it does not say when replaced in the full sentence. Significantly (and much to the chagrin of the critics), when the borrowed segment is placed back into the full sentence, and when the full sentence is placed back into the full treaty, and then when the circumstances that caused the writing of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli are presented, the portion of a line that they invoke actually strengthens rather than weakens the claim that America was a Christian nation. “
    -David Barton

    To read the full history and context see here.
    https://wallbuilders.com/treaty-of-tripoli/

    America was dealing with a Muslim nation who were still fighting the crusades and viewed all "christian" [European crusade nations] nations as crusader nations. In our diplomacy we made clear we were not a crusader nation to the Muslims as they understood a "christian" [ crusader] nation. Here is the statement

    "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries"

    Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:

    "Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron]are unknown – general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land!"

    In 1813 President James Madison sent a Jewish American diplomat Mordecai Noah to release captured christian sailors. Noah said

    “I did not forget that I was representing a Christian nation.”

    Something interesting, when the peace treaty was signed after the war. it looked like this

    Done in duplicate, in the warlike City of Algiers, in the presence of Almighty God, the 28th day of August, in the year of Jesus Christ, 1816, and in the year of the Hegira, 1231, and the 6th day of the Moon Shawal

    The book written by the forces involved for a title used

    The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton . . . commander of the Christian and Other Forces . . . which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli

    The Constitution Does not Mention God or Christianity

    "The U.S Constitutions lack of a Christian designation had little to do with a radical secular agenda. Indeed, it had little to do with religion at all. The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because there was a consensus that, despite the framer’s personal beliefs, religion was a matter best left to the individual citizens and their respective state governments (and most states in the founding era retained some form of religious establishment). The Constitution, in short, can be fairly characterized as “godless” or secular only insofar as it deferred to the states on all matters regarding religion and devotion to God. Relationships between religion and civil government were defined in most state constitutions, and the framers believed it would be inappropriate for the federal government to encroach upon or usurp state jurisdiction in this area. State and local governments, not the federal regime, it must be emphasized, were the basic and vital political units of the day.
    -David Barton A Godless Constitution?: A Response to Kramnick and Moore

    The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because religion was a matter left to the states. The Constitution was not an all powerful dictator as we believe it is today, but delegated authority by the states. State constitutions already had laws dealing with religious freedom and state/ civil governments. The first amendment is to make sure it stays that way and the federal cannot interfere to avoid what happened in Europe. In some states non Christians were banned from office, in South Carolina for example you could not even vote unless you were christian. Even some Catholics were not allowed into office or to vote.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”


    Pennsylvania/Vermont

    “Each member of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make and subscribe the following i do believe in one god the creator and Governor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punish er of the wicked.”


    Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian Article 1 Section 4

    "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-20-2018 at 05:07 AM.

  4. #3
    Yes, we have a pretty good constitution but what we lack is a supreme religious leader to keep it all in place. If we had one like Iran has, then everything would work according to god's plan.

    Yes of course I'm kidding but I kid you not about one thing. If you examine Iran's constitution and consider the cultural differences between the two nations, take the supreme leader out of it and theirs is arguably a better one than ours. Theirs guarantees minority representation. Ours doesn't. Ours really doesn't guarantee anything except that lawyers can twist it to make it mean what they think it should...but then it was written by lawyers.

    In Iran, all religious minorities are have two seats reserved in parliament. There are 80 million Iranians and maybe 30,000 Jews so proportionately, Jews are far better represented in their Majlis than are other Iranians. In America, while it is not officially acknowledged and not guaranteed, the correct Jews pretty much determine who is even permitted to participate successfully in electoral matters. All in all, Iran's elections are probably more honest than ours. But then we have a Zionist occupied government and they don't. In that respect I kind of envy theirs.
    Last edited by Vieux Canard; 01-12-2018 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Canard View Post
    Yes, we have a pretty good constitution but what we lack is a supreme religious leader to keep it all in place. If we had one like Iran has, then everything would work according to god's plan.

    Yes of course I'm kidding but I kid you not about one thing. If you examine Iran's constitution and consider the cultural differences between the two nations, take the supreme leader out of it and theirs is arguably a better one than ours. Theirs guarantees minority representation. Ours doesn't. Ours really doesn't guarantee anything except that lawyers can twist it to make it mean what they think it should...but then it was written by lawyers.

    In Iran, all religious minorities are have two seats reserved in parliament. There are 80 million Iranians and maybe 30,000 Jews so proportionately, Jews are far better represented in their Majlis than are other Iranians. In America, while it is not officially acknowledged and not guaranteed, the correct Jews pretty much determine who is even permitted to participate successfully in electoral matters. All in all, Iran's elections are probably more honest than ours. But then we have a Zionist occupied government and they don't. In that respect I kind of envy theirs.

    I cannot comment much on Iran as i know next to nothing...ok nothing. But your issue seems to be minority should rule. I disagree, we have the far left today that dominates our culture and is the minority. I am also referring to our original government, not what we have been able to manipulate it to be today for our own government expansion purposes. Also I was not so much arguing it was the best system [ i think it was close i would improve on it make it more libertarian etc] but simply pointing out a historical fact. Good thing for us because as we become secular this happens.

    “The fundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”
    -Harry Truman

  6. #5

  7. #6
    The Iranian constitution is entirely marxist . The state owns everything . I would want to be supreme leader over a free market society , be more fun .

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion (not just a particular Christian sect) or from restricting the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.

    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    In some states non Christians were banned from office, in South Carolina for example you could not even vote unless you were christian. Even some Catholics were not allowed into office or to vote.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”


    Pennsylvania/Vermont

    “Each member of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make and subscribe the following i do believe in one god the creator and Governor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punish er of the wicked.”


    Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian Article 1 Section 4

    "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion
    It says nothing about "giving official preference to any religion"


    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    (not just a particular Christian sect)
    That was the intent, it never occurred to the founders that any other religion would ever have a significant presence in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.
    That is debatable but irrelevant, this is a discussion of how things were when the nation was founded not after the 14th Amendment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.
    Irrelevant.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)
    Those cases are simply wrong and are certainly irrelevant to the historical period under discussion.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It says nothing about "giving official preference to any religion"
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That was the intent, it never occurred to the founders that any other religion would ever have a significant presence in America.
    Yet they didn't enshrine Christianity into a preferred position but rather prohibited all religious tests for federal offices. In discussing this prohibition in the debate of the North Carolina Convention on the adoption of the Constitution, James Iredell, later a Justice of the Supreme Court, said: ". . . [I]t is objected that the people of America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all, and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?"

    Another delegate pointed out that the prohibition "leaves religion on the solid foundation of its own inherent validity, without any connection with temporal authority; and no kind of oppression can take place."

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    Establishment is not the same as giving official preference to and recognition is not the same as promotion.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Two points.
    1. I believe the founders (mostly) were Intelligent, Learned, and God fearing. Many Christian though of several different sects.
    It is my opinion that they intended well.

    2. It is true that Government is Biblical.. in the sense that Nimrod is Noted.. The very first of many governments.
    You will see icons of such on the money as well,, signs of the followers of Nimrod.

    You can find their sign everywhere,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Establishment is not the same as giving official preference to and recognition is not the same as promotion.
    Recognition may not be promotion, but any official preference is an establishment and would likely also violate Equal Protection. Do you honestly think, for example, that the government could constitutionally grant tax exemptions only to Christian churches and universities and to no other religious establishments? Do you really want government bureaucrats making religious determinations ("Gee, Herb, I don't think this church is sufficiently Christian, so I guess it doesn't get [the religious preference du jour available only to Christians].")?

    Incidentally, if you think the Barnette case was wrong you should take time to read it. It is probably the most well-written SCOTUS decision in history and certainly the most libertarian. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-suprem...t/319/624.html
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 01-19-2018 at 03:22 PM.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Recognition may not be promotion, but any official preference is an establishment and would likely also violate Equal Protection. Do you honestly think, for example, that the government could constitutionally grant tax exemptions only to Christian churches and universities and to no other religious establishments? Do you really want government bureaucrats making religious determinations ("Gee, Herb, I don't think this church is sufficiently Christian, so I guess it doesn't get [the religious preference du jour available only to Christians].")?
    There are different kinds of official preference some of which would violate equal protection under the law and some of which would not, Congress is not required to let other religions give the opening prayer if it wishes to only invite Christians to do so for instance.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Two points.
    1. I believe the founders (mostly) were Intelligent, Learned, and God fearing. Many Christian though of several different sects.
    It is my opinion that they intended well.

    2. It is true that Government is Biblical.. in the sense that Nimrod is Noted.. The very first of many governments.
    You will see icons of such on the money as well,, signs of the followers of Nimrod.

    You can find their sign everywhere,,
    The minions of the devil were certainly involved as they are in everything, their corruption tainted our Constitution to some degree but it was to a lesser degree than they tried for and than most other governments.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion (not just a particular Christian sect) or from restricting the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.

    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.


    )

    I am sorry you sir are incorrect. i respond to this on post 2. first your false assumption is that were were a theocracy. please read posts before responding to a strawman.

    Common Objections

    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "Thereal object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary amongchristian sects, and to prevent any national establishment whichshould give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the nationalgovernment."
    -JosephStory 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    S
    o under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    T
    he limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.

    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished. President of the United States of America A Proclamation

    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584

    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2
    months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-19-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)

    I am sorry you have missed my whole thread and its purpose. This thread is on the founders. not the secular progressive nation we have become over time. It shows how we have changed in your statement. "all of these provisions are unconstitutional" to prove this you site a 1960 court case without seeing this proves my point. at the time of the founders nobody saw it as unconstitutional, because it wasent. Our modern ACLU view of the Constitution has changed that Leeds people like yourself to today declare what the founders did is unconstitutional.


    This thread is on the founders not what the government teaches people in schools today.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.
    Under my common responces post 2

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2 months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Yet they didn't enshrine Christianity into a preferred position but rather prohibited all religious tests for federal offices. In discussing this prohibition in the debate of the North Carolina Convention on the adoption of the Constitution, James Iredell, later a Justice of the Supreme Court, said: ". . . [I]t is objected that the people of America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all, and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?"

    Another delegate pointed out that the prohibition "leaves religion on the solid foundation of its own inherent validity, without any connection with temporal authority; and no kind of oppression can take place."

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    I agree. I for one would rather atheist rule the country if they do so on biblical principles rather than "Christians like Hillary or Obama. We had jews in the federal government and a few atheist and deist. however as i said on post 2, this is what is allowed in a christian nation.


    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "Thereal object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary amongchristian sects, and to prevent any national establishment whichshould give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the nationalgovernment."
    -JosephStory 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    So under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    The limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.
    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished.

    President of the United States of America A Proclamation
    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584
    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    I am sorry you sir are incorrect. i respond to this on post 2. first your false assumption is that were were a theocracy.
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:

    Deuteronomy 17:2-7 2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people.

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10 6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies...
    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:



    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    The law of Moses is not the same as Christianity, not only did many of the the harsher parts of the law given to the rebellious children of Israel come to an end but there were portions of the law that Moses made up on his own, Christ himself decried Moses allowance of divorce, Christianity never suppressed other religions until it was hijacked by Rome.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:
    Once more please read my common responses on post 2. Good sir you are confusing two separate issues. also once more we were never a theocracy, other religions were allowed freedom as well by the federal though usually not by the states.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”


    You are incorrect on the first amendment, but you also show your unwillingness to read posts or inability to respond to them so i am not surprised.

    "The real object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary among christian sects, and to prevent any national establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government."
    -Joseph Story 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States




    The OT law did allow religious freedom, it did not allow for certain practices see Joshua 8.33-35. Just as today we have at least remnants of religious freedom, yet certain practices are not allowed that some religions might do.

    I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    Deuteronomy 30.19

    And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
    Joshua 24.15

    In
    first kings the people of god were offered a choice to follow god or ball.

    Elijah told the people, “How long will you waver between two views? If the Lord is God,follow Him; if Baal is god, follow him.” (v. 21)And not only did Elijah offer the people their choice, but he also permitted the followers ofBaal the opportunity to pursue their religion and even encouraged them to take additional time inexpressing their religion (vv. 25-29). When they finished, Elijah would present his case for the God of Israel; the people would then make their choice.


    The founders view was it was the individual, not the state of their beliefs. Is this not the biblical teaching?

    "Truth can stand by itself. . . . f there be but one right [religion], and[Christianity] that one, we should wish to see the nine hundred andninety-nine wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But againstsuch a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasionare the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, freeinquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge itwhile we refuse it ourselves."
    Thomas Jefferson

    "If the public homage of a people can ever be worthy the favorable regard ofthe Holy and Omniscient Being to Whom it is addressed, it must be that inwhich those who join in it are guided only by their free choice – by theimpulse of their hearts and the dictates of their consciences; and such aspectacle must be [exciting] to all Christian nations."
    James Madison

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"


    Further I must point out my op says at the beginning "while not perfect..." I did not say america was the same as the biblical government, i said it was the closest to it of any nation ever. Neither would it change how our Constitution [and first amendment] was influenced by the bible.


    On the Deuteronomy 13 passage yes isreal was to remain seperate from the local pagans nations practices for good reason.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...uest-of-Canaan


    This is not the same as religious freedom. anyone could leave isreal at any time and walk from the covenant. any non believer could follow israel but could not try and convert or "entice" gods people to practices he saw as an abomination. these were not just a separate belies system, but people who intruded into Israel to convert gods people to scorers, mediums and the like v1-11. same as in america, see Salem witch trials. when you join america you agree to follow the Constitution and laws, not to lead people to something contrary to it. we call that treason.

    Section 3.

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

    [One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Deuteronomy 19.15]


    The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-20-2018 at 06:26 AM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    and what does the 8th sound like? Exodus 21 23-27. The crime shall fit the punishment and the punishment shall not exceed the crime. . If you believe the death penalty was outlawed in early america i suggest you are not ready to talk on this subject. The issues is with what you see as the 8th as contrary to capital punishment that the bible and founders do not. Here is a sermon on the subject from 1848

    https://wallbuilders.com/sermon-execution-1848/


    This thread should clear up any misconceptions on the bible and capital punishment including the passages you brought up.


    Responding to Common Objections to the Bible-OT Death Penalty Laws and Similar Objections

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lar-Objections

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    The crime shall fit the punishment and the punishment shall not exceed the crime.
    Indeed. And do you believe that working on the Sabbath deserves death? Or that death is a fitting punishment for being a rebellious child?

    If you believe the death penalty was outlawed in early america i suggest you are not ready to talk on this subject.
    I suggest you take a remedial reading course. Nothing I posted even remotely suggests that I'm against capital punishment or that the 8th Amendment prohibits it in all instances. The point was that the biblical admonition to kill for the specific offenses I mentioned would violate the 8th Amendment, so that the Constitution is hardly biblical.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Indeed. And do you believe that working on the Sabbath deserves death? Or that death is a fitting punishment for being a rebellious child?



    I suggest you take a remedial reading course. Nothing I posted even remotely suggests that I'm against capital punishment or that the 8th Amendment prohibits it in all instances. The point was that the biblical admonition to kill for the specific offenses I mentioned would violate the 8th Amendment, so that the Constitution is hardly biblical.
    i would rather suggest you have misunderstood the bible and its laws. please read here

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lar-Objections


    Understand the biblical worldview and the early america one of morals and right and wrong in many ways differs from our modern liberal view.



Similar Threads

  1. We are creating two Americas
    By Nicklibergamer34 in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 11-03-2014, 11:51 PM
  2. The School of the Americas
    By jim49er in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-29-2011, 03:03 PM
  3. Resources for Biblical views on Government
    By brandon07 in forum Christian Outreach
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-09-2008, 02:11 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-02-2007, 03:37 PM
  5. Huckabee Clueless Re: Biblical/Constitutional Limits On Civil Government
    By Patrick Henry in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-30-2007, 05:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •