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Thread: Americas Biblical Government

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    Default Americas Biblical Government

    The American Union Modeled After Ancient Israel

    “Our family of states, so many sovereignties governing themselves, yet consenting to be governed, like constellations each with its own order and laws, but all obeying one great rule, suggesting, as organized communities, more than any other nation, the divine pattern of the tribes in the Hebrew commonwealth.”
    -Nehemiah Adams Pastor Harvard graduate 1855

    “The national government was headed by Moses, and there was a national legislature composed of a council of seventy elders, or what we would call senators [exodus 19.7 24.1 Numbers 11 16-17] Each of the twelve “states” [tribes] had its own Governor and legislature, or council of ruling elders [senators.]” -David Barton Natural Born President

    “Gods model for governments purpose and administration was set forth in his establishment of the nation of Israel whose form of government operated by rule of righteousness within twelve separate limited jurisdictions [tribes] and consequently was a federation.”
    --Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

    While not perfect, the United states was originally a union of states, a federation of states as originally created by the founders most resembled of any nation on earth that of Gods original model for government. And I believe received Gods blessing more than any other nation for it. The original plan for Israel from God was of a decentralized tribal union/nation with its foundation being the laws of God that connected the loosely held tribes into the nation of Israel. In Gods laws he had given unalienable rights and a republican form of government with elected officials. Much how the united states was a union of states under a constitution [derived from laws/principles of gods law] in a republican form of government. To the early Israelite the law of God was the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all under the authority of the law as in the United states where elected officials are servants under the constitution

    16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
    -Exodus 18.16

    43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.
    -Mark 10 43-44

    Besides being held accountable by the constitution and “we the people” who could elect our officials out of office, one way our elected officials acknowledged the higher authority was through prayer proclamations. Between 1622 and 1815 1,500 proclamations of prayer or fasting were given in the united states. 300 were given by the church, 1,200 by the local, state or federal government. John Adams the second U.S president gave this one in 1798
    By the President of the United States of America A PROCLAMATION -

    “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist....”

    John Hancock called for state prayer Oct 15 1791 as the Governor of Massachusetts-

    “And above all, not only to continue to us the enjoyment of our civil Rights and Liberties; but the great and most important Blessing, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do earnestly recommend, that we may join the penitent confession of our Sins, and implore the further continuance of the Divine Protection, and Blessings of Heaven upon this People; especially that He would be graciously pleased to direct, and prosper the Administration of the Federal Government, and of this, and the other States in the Union that all may bow to the Scepter of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and the whole Earth be filled with his Glory.”

    Samuel Adams Governor of Massachusetts in 1795 proclamation of prayer and fasting-


    “we may unitedly implore the forgiveness of our Sins, through the merits of Jesus Christ, and humbly supplicate our Heavenly Father, to grant us the aids of his Grace, for the amendment of our Hearts and Lives.”


    “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity… From the day of the Declaration…they were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.” - John Quincy Adams 1821


    Our Biblical Constitution

    “…the religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and His apostles…This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government…the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all of our civil constitutions and laws.”
    -Noah Webster 1833

    Political science professors from the university of Houston did a study on 15,000 writings from the founding era that had impact on the formation of the Constitution. They identified 3,154 quotes by the founders on where there ideas came form to form the Constitution. Their work was published as “The origins of American Constitutionalism.” they found 34% of the quotes came directly from bible as the main source, 8.3% came from Montesquieu, 7.9% from Blackstone, and next was John Locke at 6.9%. Yet Montesquieu, Blackstone and Locke all often quoted the bible in their works for proper government. So the actual impact from the bible is far greater. For example in Locks most influential work a 400 page “2 Trinities on Government” he referred to the bible 1,500 times.

    “Of all the nations in the world . . . most justly called a Christian nation...has so largely shaped and molded it."
    -Supreme Court Justice David Brewer 1837-1910


    Everything in the declaration of Independence such as all men created equal, the consent of the governed, etc was already preached widely by pastors before 1776 for proper biblical government. Likewise what the British were doing such as taxation without representation and the stamp act were shown to be forms of tyranny in the bible. These were the topics of many sermons in America that incited people towards the revolution. The reverend John Wise who preached these sermons was credited with the ideas that formed the declaration of independence. When John Adams was asked who was most responsible for the revolution he named the Rev Samuel Cooper, the rev John Mayhew, the Rev George Witfeild, and the Rev Charles Chauncy.

    Republicanism

    “[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.
    -Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 6.

    "The Bible contains the most profound philosophy, the most perfect morality and the most refined policy that ever was conceived upon earth. It is the most republican book in the world, and therefore I will still revere it,"
    -John Adams

    Article 4 section 4 of the constitution gives Americans a republican form of government. The idea of elected official comes from Exodus 18.21 which was radical thinking at the time as no other country Americans came from had a republic. They elected christian leaders from among them over local, county, state, and federal levels or “tens” “fifties” “hundreds” and “thousands”.

    "Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
    -Exodus 18.21

    Some of the state constitutions were as follows.

    1776 Delawares

    “Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house must say “I do profess faith in god the father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ, his only son, and in the holy spirit, one God and blessed forevermore, and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testaments to be given by divine inspiration.”
    Pennsylvania/Vermont

    “Each member of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make and subscribe the following I do believe in one god the creator and Governor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punisher of the wicked.”

    Tennessee 1796


    “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”

    A republican government is not a democracy [a form of government the founders hated and was seen as tyrannical]. In a republic majority does not rule, the law is the ultimate authority. All people are held under the law. If private property is protected in a republican form of government, it matters not if 51% say they now want to steal your land to use for their own purposes. In a republic built on gods law, murder will always be murder even if the majority one day decide its ok to murder.

    “I have always considered Christianity as the strong ground of republicanism.”
    -Benjamin Rush, letter to Thomas Jefferson on August 22, 1800

    [the bible]

    “That book, Sir, is the Rock upon which our republic rests.”
    -Andrew Jackson


    Our Biblical Laws

    “The fundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”
    -Harry Truman

    Most of our laws and principles that led to the declaration and constitution derive from the bible. Early American law books had our laws with the bible versus for justification of why they were there. Blackstones 1766 “commentaries on the law” became the final word in courts and was a primary legal source. Throughout his work he sited the bible as justification for the laws. Charles Finney studied law and became a christian by reading Blackstones work. There was so much scripture in the law textbook that he converted and became a christian. He than went on to become a famous Evangelist in the second great awakening. Blackstone also said “No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this...the holy scriptures.”

    “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”
    -1929 President Calvin Coolidge

    Separation of powers comes from Jeremiah 17.9. The idea of three branches of government comes from Isaiah 33.22. Tax exemption for churches Ezra 7.24. Article 1 section 8 of the constitution on uniform immigration laws see Leviticus 19.34. Article 2 section 1 paragraph 5 see Deuteronomy 17.15. article 3 section 3 see Deuteronomy 17.6. Provision against attainder see Ezekiel 18.20. The right to jury for serious crimes comes from Numbers 35 24-26. The right to a defendant in court and to know the charges against you comes from John 7.51 and Proverbs 18.17. Cannot be convicted but by the testimony of two witnesses Deuteronomy 19.15. The first welfare reform in America was because of Timothy 5.8 and 2 Thessalonians 3.10 Ideas such as private property and the free enterprise system comes from the bible. Article 1 section 1 of the constitution comes from Ezekiel. In Numbers chapter 1 gods economy for the military was armed citizenry not a standing army. This is why the United States had a very small national army and each state had militias the strongest units in the land. That you must have an accuser in court comes form Jesus and the woman found in adultery when he said “Where are your accusers? When Jesus did not open his mouth to accuse himself at his trial gives the right of not self incriminating, the fifth amendment. And many more.

    “T]he Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence.”
    -Noah Webster


    Our laws were so closely aligned with Christianity that in 1811 in the court case of Peoples vs Ruggles a man was handing out anti-Jesus, anti-god, anti-bible papers, so he was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity, and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.

    "This is a Christian nation. . . . [T]he calling of this republic a Christian nation is not a mere pretence, but a recognition of an historical, legal, and social truth"
    -Justice David Brewer (1837-1910), appointed to the Court by President Benjamin Harrison


    “Human law must rest its authority ultimately, upon the authority of that law, which is divine.”
    -James Wilson Signer of the declaration Supreme Court Justice


    Biblical Education

    "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. -Proverbs 22.6
    [T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible.
    -Benjamin Rush


    In 1782 as an act of congress they published an official bible for use in schools. Our education system included the bible and teaching Christianity as a God reveled system. The Bible was the basic textbook and used far more often in school [sometimes as only textbook often due to availability] than any other source. Patrick Henry said the bible should be read in our schools in preference to any other or all combined. The first federal law on education came from the northwest ordinance article 3 signed by Washington in 1789. In it, it said, if schools want to be a part of united states they must teach religion, morality, and than education. Benjamin Rush the “Father of public schools under the constitution” in 1790 wrote “The mode of education proper in a republic” and said the three primary responsibilities of schools was, first of all, to love and serve God. Second, love of country. Third love of family. The new England primer was the first textbook published in America, it was the primary source outside the bible used until 1930. This text was interwoven with the bible, for example kids were taught






    This so ingrained the bible into the minds of its citizens that a European observer said in America you were as likely to here a deep theological debate in a bar, as you were in a seminary. However twice in America before 1900 schools tried to teach education without Christianity. In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    They ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a public school tried to get Christianity out the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.

    “Over 300 court cases in the past two centuries have said that America is a christian nation.”
    -David Barton American heritage Series

    Washington D.C

    "In the United States, Christianity is the original, spontaneous, and national religion"
    -Constitutional law professor Edward Mansfield (1801-1880)


    Our capital building was authorized by congress for use as a church. By 1867 it was one of the largest in the country. Members of congress studied the bible in the white house during secession. The first time the founders met in congress on sep 17 1774 they opened with prayer and than studied four chapters of the bible. Below are just a few of the biblical inscriptions that can be found in D.C for dozens more see

    https://shop.wallbuilders.com/the-american-heritage-series-10-dvd-boxed-set



    Moses holding ten commandments Over Supreme Court




    Inside the Supreme Court Room Display of the 10 commandments




    Ten Commandments in the floor of the National Archives


    https://www.aoc.gov/art/relief-portrait-...vers/moses
    Moses National Statuary Hall



    “proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.”
    -Leviticus 25.10 Liberty Bell Inscription



    -Micah 6.8 Inscribed on the walls at the library on congress Also inscribed are Psalm 19.1 Proverbs 4.7 and John 1.5



    Gutenberg Bible Library of Congress



    Room in the capital just off the rotunda reserved for prayer for members of congress. George Washington knelling in prayer Psalm 16.1 inscribed




    Inside the rotunda the pilgrims led in prayer by chaplain Brewster with open bible that reads the new testament according to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ

    Quotes From the Founders

    "Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect [denomination]. Any attempt to level and discard all religion would have been viewed with universal indignation. . . . In this age there can be no substitute for Christianity; that, in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions"
    -HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE 1852-1853

    “The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object of all republican governments.”
    -Benjamin Rush, founding father

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
    -House Judiciary Committee 1855

    [T]he Christian religion – its general principles – must ever be regarded among us as the foundation of civil society
    -Danial webster


    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    -John Adams

    "This is a Christian Nation"
    -Harry Truman


    “It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider what would be the legal effect of a devise in Pennsylvania for the establishment of a school or college for the propagation of Judaism, or Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country.”
    -Vidal v. Girard’s Executors, 43 U. S. 127, 198 (1844)

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    "[T]he teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life that it would be literally….impossible for us to figure to ourselves what that life would be if these teaching were removed."
    -Teddy Roosevelt


    "One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations. . . . I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. In [our] republic, there would seem to be a peculiar propriety in viewing the Christian religion as the great basis on which it must rest for its support and permanence"
    -Justice Joseph Story (1779-1845) was appointed to the Court by President James Madison.

    Has [government] any solid foundation? Any chief cornerstone?... I think it has an everlasting foundation in the unchangeable will of God… The sum of my argument is that civil government is of God.
    -James otis


    religion and virtue are the only foundations not only of republicanism and of all free government but of social felicity under all governments and in all combinations of human society.
    -John Adams


    “America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures.”
    -Woodrow Wilson 1913

    “The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our prevalent notions of the character of God, the great moral governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions.”
    -William McGuffey “McGuffey's Reader” for Schools 1836

    “I’ve lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth—that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that “except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it.” I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.”
    -Benjamin Franklin 1787


    “In regard to this Great Book (The Bible), I have but to say, it is the best gift God had given to man. All the good The Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.”
    -Abraham Lincoln

    “…(my) great joy and glory that, in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of The Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world.”
    -Theodore Roosevelt 1909

    "America was born a Christian nation – America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture"
    -Woodrow Wilson


    "For many years, my hope for the perpetuity of our institutions has rested upon Bible morality and the general dissemination of Christian principles. This is an element which did not exist in the ancient republics. It is a basis on which free governments may be maintained through all time. . . . Free government is not a self-moving machine. . . . Our mission of freedom is not carried out by brute force, by canon law, or any other law except the moral law and those Christian principles which are found in the Scriptures"
    -Justice John McLean (1785-1861) was appointed to the Court by President Andrew Jackson.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-20-2018 at 05:57 AM.



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    Common Objections

    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "The real object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary among christian sects, and to prevent any national establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government."
    -Joseph Story 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    So under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    The limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.

    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished.

    President of the United States of America A Proclamation

    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584

    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2 months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.

    The Treaty of Tripoli

    “On its face, that clause appears to be nondebatable and final, but what the critics fail to acknowledge is that they have lifted eighteen words out of a sentence that is eighty-one words long, thereby appearing to make it say something that it does not say when replaced in the full sentence. Significantly (and much to the chagrin of the critics), when the borrowed segment is placed back into the full sentence, and when the full sentence is placed back into the full treaty, and then when the circumstances that caused the writing of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli are presented, the portion of a line that they invoke actually strengthens rather than weakens the claim that America was a Christian nation. “
    -David Barton

    To read the full history and context see here.
    https://wallbuilders.com/treaty-of-tripoli/

    America was dealing with a Muslim nation who were still fighting the crusades and viewed all "christian" [European crusade nations] nations as crusader nations. In our diplomacy we made clear we were not a crusader nation to the Muslims as they understood a "christian" [ crusader] nation. Here is the statement

    "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries"

    Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:

    "Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron]are unknown – general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land!"

    In 1813 President James Madison sent a Jewish American diplomat Mordecai Noah to release captured christian sailors. Noah said

    “I did not forget that I was representing a Christian nation.”

    Something interesting, when the peace treaty was signed after the war. it looked like this

    Done in duplicate, in the warlike City of Algiers, in the presence of Almighty God, the 28th day of August, in the year of Jesus Christ, 1816, and in the year of the Hegira, 1231, and the 6th day of the Moon Shawal

    The book written by the forces involved for a title used

    The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton . . . commander of the Christian and Other Forces . . . which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli

    The Constitution Does not Mention God or Christianity

    "The U.S Constitutions lack of a Christian designation had little to do with a radical secular agenda. Indeed, it had little to do with religion at all. The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because there was a consensus that, despite the framer’s personal beliefs, religion was a matter best left to the individual citizens and their respective state governments (and most states in the founding era retained some form of religious establishment). The Constitution, in short, can be fairly characterized as “godless” or secular only insofar as it deferred to the states on all matters regarding religion and devotion to God. Relationships between religion and civil government were defined in most state constitutions, and the framers believed it would be inappropriate for the federal government to encroach upon or usurp state jurisdiction in this area. State and local governments, not the federal regime, it must be emphasized, were the basic and vital political units of the day.
    -David Barton A Godless Constitution?: A Response to Kramnick and Moore

    The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because religion was a matter left to the states. The Constitution was not an all powerful dictator as we believe it is today, but delegated authority by the states. State constitutions already had laws dealing with religious freedom and state/ civil governments. The first amendment is to make sure it stays that way and the federal cannot interfere to avoid what happened in Europe. In some states non Christians were banned from office, in South Carolina for example you could not even vote unless you were christian. Even some Catholics were not allowed into office or to vote.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”


    Pennsylvania/Vermont

    “Each member of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make and subscribe the following i do believe in one god the creator and Governor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punish er of the wicked.”


    Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian Article 1 Section 4

    "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-20-2018 at 05:07 AM.

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    Yes, we have a pretty good constitution but what we lack is a supreme religious leader to keep it all in place. If we had one like Iran has, then everything would work according to god's plan.

    Yes of course I'm kidding but I kid you not about one thing. If you examine Iran's constitution and consider the cultural differences between the two nations, take the supreme leader out of it and theirs is arguably a better one than ours. Theirs guarantees minority representation. Ours doesn't. Ours really doesn't guarantee anything except that lawyers can twist it to make it mean what they think it should...but then it was written by lawyers.

    In Iran, all religious minorities are have two seats reserved in parliament. There are 80 million Iranians and maybe 30,000 Jews so proportionately, Jews are far better represented in their Majlis than are other Iranians. In America, while it is not officially acknowledged and not guaranteed, the correct Jews pretty much determine who is even permitted to participate successfully in electoral matters. All in all, Iran's elections are probably more honest than ours. But then we have a Zionist occupied government and they don't. In that respect I kind of envy theirs.
    Last edited by Vieux Canard; 01-12-2018 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Canard View Post
    Yes, we have a pretty good constitution but what we lack is a supreme religious leader to keep it all in place. If we had one like Iran has, then everything would work according to god's plan.

    Yes of course I'm kidding but I kid you not about one thing. If you examine Iran's constitution and consider the cultural differences between the two nations, take the supreme leader out of it and theirs is arguably a better one than ours. Theirs guarantees minority representation. Ours doesn't. Ours really doesn't guarantee anything except that lawyers can twist it to make it mean what they think it should...but then it was written by lawyers.

    In Iran, all religious minorities are have two seats reserved in parliament. There are 80 million Iranians and maybe 30,000 Jews so proportionately, Jews are far better represented in their Majlis than are other Iranians. In America, while it is not officially acknowledged and not guaranteed, the correct Jews pretty much determine who is even permitted to participate successfully in electoral matters. All in all, Iran's elections are probably more honest than ours. But then we have a Zionist occupied government and they don't. In that respect I kind of envy theirs.

    I cannot comment much on Iran as i know next to nothing...ok nothing. But your issue seems to be minority should rule. I disagree, we have the far left today that dominates our culture and is the minority. I am also referring to our original government, not what we have been able to manipulate it to be today for our own government expansion purposes. Also I was not so much arguing it was the best system [ i think it was close i would improve on it make it more libertarian etc] but simply pointing out a historical fact. Good thing for us because as we become secular this happens.

    “The fundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”
    -Harry Truman

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    What is the punishment for the attempted murder of freedom on earth? 👁👁

  7. #6

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    The Iranian constitution is entirely marxist . The state owns everything . I would want to be supreme leader over a free market society , be more fun .

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion (not just a particular Christian sect) or from restricting the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.

    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    In some states non Christians were banned from office, in South Carolina for example you could not even vote unless you were christian. Even some Catholics were not allowed into office or to vote.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”


    Pennsylvania/Vermont

    “Each member of the legislation before he takes a seat shall make and subscribe the following i do believe in one god the creator and Governor of the universe the rewarded of the good and punish er of the wicked.”


    Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanian Article 1 Section 4

    "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion
    It says nothing about "giving official preference to any religion"


    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    (not just a particular Christian sect)
    That was the intent, it never occurred to the founders that any other religion would ever have a significant presence in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.
    That is debatable but irrelevant, this is a discussion of how things were when the nation was founded not after the 14th Amendment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.
    Irrelevant.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)
    Those cases are simply wrong and are certainly irrelevant to the historical period under discussion.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It says nothing about "giving official preference to any religion"
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That was the intent, it never occurred to the founders that any other religion would ever have a significant presence in America.
    Yet they didn't enshrine Christianity into a preferred position but rather prohibited all religious tests for federal offices. In discussing this prohibition in the debate of the North Carolina Convention on the adoption of the Constitution, James Iredell, later a Justice of the Supreme Court, said: ". . . [I]t is objected that the people of America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all, and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?"

    Another delegate pointed out that the prohibition "leaves religion on the solid foundation of its own inherent validity, without any connection with temporal authority; and no kind of oppression can take place."

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    Establishment is not the same as giving official preference to and recognition is not the same as promotion.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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    Two points.
    1. I believe the founders (mostly) were Intelligent, Learned, and God fearing. Many Christian though of several different sects.
    It is my opinion that they intended well.

    2. It is true that Government is Biblical.. in the sense that Nimrod is Noted.. The very first of many governments.
    You will see icons of such on the money as well,, signs of the followers of Nimrod.

    You can find their sign everywhere,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Establishment is not the same as giving official preference to and recognition is not the same as promotion.
    Recognition may not be promotion, but any official preference is an establishment and would likely also violate Equal Protection. Do you honestly think, for example, that the government could constitutionally grant tax exemptions only to Christian churches and universities and to no other religious establishments? Do you really want government bureaucrats making religious determinations ("Gee, Herb, I don't think this church is sufficiently Christian, so I guess it doesn't get [the religious preference du jour available only to Christians].")?

    Incidentally, if you think the Barnette case was wrong you should take time to read it. It is probably the most well-written SCOTUS decision in history and certainly the most libertarian. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-suprem...t/319/624.html
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 01-19-2018 at 03:22 PM.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Recognition may not be promotion, but any official preference is an establishment and would likely also violate Equal Protection. Do you honestly think, for example, that the government could constitutionally grant tax exemptions only to Christian churches and universities and to no other religious establishments? Do you really want government bureaucrats making religious determinations ("Gee, Herb, I don't think this church is sufficiently Christian, so I guess it doesn't get [the religious preference du jour available only to Christians].")?
    There are different kinds of official preference some of which would violate equal protection under the law and some of which would not, Congress is not required to let other religions give the opening prayer if it wishes to only invite Christians to do so for instance.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Two points.
    1. I believe the founders (mostly) were Intelligent, Learned, and God fearing. Many Christian though of several different sects.
    It is my opinion that they intended well.

    2. It is true that Government is Biblical.. in the sense that Nimrod is Noted.. The very first of many governments.
    You will see icons of such on the money as well,, signs of the followers of Nimrod.

    You can find their sign everywhere,,
    The minions of the devil were certainly involved as they are in everything, their corruption tainted our Constitution to some degree but it was to a lesser degree than they tried for and than most other governments.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Just the opposite. The Constitution explicitly prohibits any religious test for federal offices, and the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing or giving official preference to any religion (not just a particular Christian sect) or from restricting the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment's prohibitions also apply to the States via the 14th Amendment.

    In fact, you might want to consider that the First Amendment allows one to be a polytheist, atheist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, all of which are capital offenses in the Bible.


    )

    I am sorry you sir are incorrect. i respond to this on post 2. first your false assumption is that were were a theocracy. please read posts before responding to a strawman.

    Common Objections

    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "Thereal object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary amongchristian sects, and to prevent any national establishment whichshould give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the nationalgovernment."
    -JosephStory 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    S
    o under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    T
    he limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.

    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished. President of the United States of America A Proclamation

    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584

    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2
    months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-19-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All of these provisions are unconstitutional. See Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1960), invalidating Maryland's constitution's provision that any public official must profess a belief in God.

    Although this is from a case dealing with a slightly different subject, it encapsulates the meaning of freedom of thought against governmental orthodoxy:

    "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (invalidating compulsory recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools)

    I am sorry you have missed my whole thread and its purpose. This thread is on the founders. not the secular progressive nation we have become over time. It shows how we have changed in your statement. "all of these provisions are unconstitutional" to prove this you site a 1960 court case without seeing this proves my point. at the time of the founders nobody saw it as unconstitutional, because it wasent. Our modern ACLU view of the Constitution has changed that Leeds people like yourself to today declare what the founders did is unconstitutional.


    This thread is on the founders not what the government teaches people in schools today.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    That's what the Establishment Clause means. It certainly didn't mean that Christianity could be designated the official religion of the country.
    Under my common responces post 2

    “An Establishment of Religion”

    Was always understood the historical way of no one denomination rule. The US congress in June-sep25 1789 clearly defines the first amendment as there not being a federally established denomination but we were a Christian nation but no one denomination. A 1799 court case Runkel vs Winemiller said by our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations of Christian's are placed on the same ground. When in 1854 people first tried separation of church and state on march 27 the house judiciary committee report said this

    “Had the founding fathers during the revolution a suspicion of any war against Christianity that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged but not any one denomination .. in this age there is no substitute for Christianity .. that was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    2 months later they said this

    “The great Conservative element in our system the thing witch holds our system together is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and their Divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    In 1844 a school in Philadelphia said they were going to teach morality but not Christianity. It again went to the supreme court Svidal vs Girard 1844. the supreme Court said to the school

    “why may not the bible and especially the new testament be read and taught as divine revaluation in school? its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality communicated where can the purist principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the new testament.”

    they ruled Christianity should be taught. Later in 1892 the US supreme court case church of holy trinity vs united states. when a school tried to get Christianity out of its public school the court said

    “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation state or national because this is a religious people... this is a Christian nation.”

    They sited 87 court precedents from the founding fathers, acts of state governments, acts of congress etc to prove we were a Christian nation. The court said many more could be quoted but surely 87 was enough.
    in another case in 1811 People vs Ruggles

    A man was handing out anti Jesus, anti god, and anti bible papers. He was charged with 3 months in jail and fined $500 dollars for a attack on the country. The judge said an attack on Jesus was a attack on Christianity and an attack on Christianity was a attack on the foundation of the country.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Yet they didn't enshrine Christianity into a preferred position but rather prohibited all religious tests for federal offices. In discussing this prohibition in the debate of the North Carolina Convention on the adoption of the Constitution, James Iredell, later a Justice of the Supreme Court, said: ". . . [I]t is objected that the people of America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all, and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?"

    Another delegate pointed out that the prohibition "leaves religion on the solid foundation of its own inherent validity, without any connection with temporal authority; and no kind of oppression can take place."

    The last thing any believer should want is for the government -- whether federal, state, or local -- to use its power to promote any specific religious belief. Those who wish to do so implicitly admit the weakness of their religion to appeal to men's minds.
    I agree. I for one would rather atheist rule the country if they do so on biblical principles rather than "Christians like Hillary or Obama. We had jews in the federal government and a few atheist and deist. however as i said on post 2, this is what is allowed in a christian nation.


    The United States was not a Theocracy? And What About Separation of church and State

    "The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it."
    -Noah Webster

    Many christian nations during the middle ages were indeed theocracies. But the united states was a biblical government, not a theocracy. The first few centuries of Christianity there was no merger or church and state, not until Emperor Theodosius did the state merge with the church. The state took over the church and controlled the church. With this also came one denomination rule by the state as it forced its population to conform. As early as the 1500's pastors began to preach “separation of church and state.” The state had no biblical right to control the church or interfere with religious expression. In the Bible God separated the state from the church. Moses was in control of the state and Aaron the church. They led the same nation but had separate jurisdictions. King Uzziah was a good ruler in Israel however in 2 Chronicles 26.16 Uzziah steps over into the area of the church as he sought to control both church and state the priest in the temple rightly resisted him.

    18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
    -2 chronicles 26.18

    However the king did not listen and so God than struck him with leprosy for his actions. A biblical government as well allows other belief systems [Josh 24.15 1 kings 18.21] but itself is built on gods law.

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"

    The early American settlers such as the pilgrims, the Quakers, the Anabaptist and others, searched for religious freedom from the persecution by the state governments in Europe. Early American pastors preached separation of church and state and avoidance of denomination rule such as European nations had like England with its one denomination church of England that persecuted and made illegal all other denominations. 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned or killed, 400,000 Huguenots were persecuted in France, 20,000 Lutherans were expelled from Austria and many more.

    However the biblical view of separation of church and state is far different from the modern ACLU version. The biblical and American view is the state has no right to control the church or to interfere with individuals religious expression public or private.

    “The separation of church and state does not mean the exclusion of God, righteousness, morality, from the state.”
    -Quaker leader Will Wood

    “The separation of the church from the state did not mean the severance of the state from God, or of the nation from Christianity.”
    -Galloway Christianity and the American commonwealth

    "Thereal object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary amongchristian sects, and to prevent any national establishment whichshould give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the nationalgovernment."
    -JosephStory 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States

    So under the constitution they made sure the state could not interfere with the church or religious expression.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    The limitation is on congress not individuals. The first amendment like all the bill of rights was a limitation on government. The state cannot interfere with religion. It should be pointed out that separation of church and state is found in no founding or legal document. It is found in a Jefferson letter to a baptists church in 1802. In its context shows the proper understanding of separation of church and state.
    https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury...jefferson/
    https://wallbuilders.com/respond-separat...state/#FN5

    “It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history…The establishment clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years…There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation (between church and state)…The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
    -Associate Justice William Rehnquist U.S. Supreme Court 1985

    Right after the first amendment was ratified George Washington called on America to fast and pray to thank god for what they had just accomplished.

    President of the United States of America A Proclamation
    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor...”
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt...sp?id=3584
    According to George Washington in his farewell address anyone who tried to separate Christianity from government or school was not a patriot.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    I am sorry you sir are incorrect. i respond to this on post 2. first your false assumption is that were were a theocracy.
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:

    Deuteronomy 17:2-7 2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people.

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10 6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies...
    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:



    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    The law of Moses is not the same as Christianity, not only did many of the the harsher parts of the law given to the rebellious children of Israel come to an end but there were portions of the law that Moses made up on his own, Christ himself decried Moses allowance of divorce, Christianity never suppressed other religions until it was hijacked by Rome.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, I was addressing your false assumption that the Constitution is biblical. Compare the First Amendment's protection of free exercise of religion (note: not free exercise of only Christianity or Judeo-Christian religion) to the following:
    Once more please read my common responses on post 2. Good sir you are confusing two separate issues. also once more we were never a theocracy, other religions were allowed freedom as well by the federal though usually not by the states.

    Delawares

    “Every person appointed to public office shall say I do profess faith in god the father and in Jesus Christ his only son and in the holy ghost and i acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

    Tennessee 1796

    “no person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”


    You are incorrect on the first amendment, but you also show your unwillingness to read posts or inability to respond to them so i am not surprised.

    "The real object of the first amendment...to exclude all rilvary among christian sects, and to prevent any national establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government."
    -Joseph Story 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the united States




    The OT law did allow religious freedom, it did not allow for certain practices see Joshua 8.33-35. Just as today we have at least remnants of religious freedom, yet certain practices are not allowed that some religions might do.

    I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    Deuteronomy 30.19

    And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
    Joshua 24.15

    In
    first kings the people of god were offered a choice to follow god or ball.

    Elijah told the people, “How long will you waver between two views? If the Lord is God,follow Him; if Baal is god, follow him.” (v. 21)And not only did Elijah offer the people their choice, but he also permitted the followers ofBaal the opportunity to pursue their religion and even encouraged them to take additional time inexpressing their religion (vv. 25-29). When they finished, Elijah would present his case for the God of Israel; the people would then make their choice.


    The founders view was it was the individual, not the state of their beliefs. Is this not the biblical teaching?

    "Truth can stand by itself. . . . f there be but one right [religion], and[Christianity] that one, we should wish to see the nine hundred andninety-nine wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But againstsuch a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasionare the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, freeinquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge itwhile we refuse it ourselves."
    Thomas Jefferson

    "If the public homage of a people can ever be worthy the favorable regard ofthe Holy and Omniscient Being to Whom it is addressed, it must be that inwhich those who join in it are guided only by their free choice – by theimpulse of their hearts and the dictates of their consciences; and such aspectacle must be [exciting] to all Christian nations."
    James Madison

    SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: "We are Christians, not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay a due regard to Christianity?"


    Further I must point out my op says at the beginning "while not perfect..." I did not say america was the same as the biblical government, i said it was the closest to it of any nation ever. Neither would it change how our Constitution [and first amendment] was influenced by the bible.


    On the Deuteronomy 13 passage yes isreal was to remain seperate from the local pagans nations practices for good reason.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...uest-of-Canaan


    This is not the same as religious freedom. anyone could leave isreal at any time and walk from the covenant. any non believer could follow israel but could not try and convert or "entice" gods people to practices he saw as an abomination. these were not just a separate belies system, but people who intruded into Israel to convert gods people to scorers, mediums and the like v1-11. same as in america, see Salem witch trials. when you join america you agree to follow the Constitution and laws, not to lead people to something contrary to it. we call that treason.

    Section 3.

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

    [One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Deuteronomy 19.15]


    The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 01-20-2018 at 06:26 AM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    And the 8th Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment contradicts the many death sentences mandated by the Bible, including striking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 17), being a rebellious child (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), adultery with a married woman (Leviticus 20:10), and working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
    and what does the 8th sound like? Exodus 21 23-27. The crime shall fit the punishment and the punishment shall not exceed the crime. . If you believe the death penalty was outlawed in early america i suggest you are not ready to talk on this subject. The issues is with what you see as the 8th as contrary to capital punishment that the bible and founders do not. Here is a sermon on the subject from 1848

    https://wallbuilders.com/sermon-execution-1848/


    This thread should clear up any misconceptions on the bible and capital punishment including the passages you brought up.


    Responding to Common Objections to the Bible-OT Death Penalty Laws and Similar Objections

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lar-Objections

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    The crime shall fit the punishment and the punishment shall not exceed the crime.
    Indeed. And do you believe that working on the Sabbath deserves death? Or that death is a fitting punishment for being a rebellious child?

    If you believe the death penalty was outlawed in early america i suggest you are not ready to talk on this subject.
    I suggest you take a remedial reading course. Nothing I posted even remotely suggests that I'm against capital punishment or that the 8th Amendment prohibits it in all instances. The point was that the biblical admonition to kill for the specific offenses I mentioned would violate the 8th Amendment, so that the Constitution is hardly biblical.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  24. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Indeed. And do you believe that working on the Sabbath deserves death? Or that death is a fitting punishment for being a rebellious child?



    I suggest you take a remedial reading course. Nothing I posted even remotely suggests that I'm against capital punishment or that the 8th Amendment prohibits it in all instances. The point was that the biblical admonition to kill for the specific offenses I mentioned would violate the 8th Amendment, so that the Constitution is hardly biblical.
    i would rather suggest you have misunderstood the bible and its laws. please read here

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lar-Objections


    Understand the biblical worldview and the early america one of morals and right and wrong in many ways differs from our modern liberal view.






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