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Thread: Trump attacks protections for immigrants from ‘$#@!hole’ countries in Oval Office meeting

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Because the alternative is not allowing them, by way of doing unethical things to stop peaceful people from engaging in harmless activities.

    You have the right to keep them off of your own privately owned property. But you have no right to keep them off of any property that is not rightfully yours, such as the workplace of an employer who wants to hire them.

    You may not want to welcome them. But when others of us want to, it's none of your, or Trump's, business.

    My goodness. Instead of offering absurd personal opinions of what should be, try to base your opinions within our Constitution's boundaries. Whether you like it or not, our federal government is charged with protecting our borders against "invasions". And that would include the flood of foreigners who are entering our country in violation of our laws. Got it?


    JWK





    American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance a maternity ward for the poverty stricken populations of $#@!-hole countries who invade America’s borders to give birth.




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  3. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Any country that has to manually unblock the fecal logjams in the sewage system as a regular course of business can be confidently placed in the "$#@!hole country" column of the spreadsheet.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  4. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    My goodness. Instead of offering absurd personal opinions of what should be, try to base your opinions within our Constitution's boundaries.
    I didn't say anything about my personal opinions. Moral right and wrong is not a matter of opinion.

    If you want to get into constitutionality, then that doesn't help you, since the Constitution does not authorize the federal government to regulate immigration, and for the first century after it was ratified, nobody ever dreamed that it did.

    But even if it did, that wouldn't matter. It would just mean the Constitution was wrong about that, since it would authorize something unjust, and an unjust law is no law at all. Just as unconstitutional laws are void, so are unjust laws. We the people don't have the moral right to delegate to the federal government any powers that we don't already possess according to the higher law of justice itself.

    Here are a couple great quotes from two different 19th century works on the relationship between justice and the laws and acts of human governments that are well worth the read.

    First, from Spooner's letter to Grover Cleveland:
    Let me then remind you that justice is an immutable, natural principle; and not anything that can be made, unmade, or altered by any human power.
    It is also a subject of science, and is to be learned, like mathematics, or any other science. It does not derive its authority from the commands, will, pleasure, or discretion of any possible combination of men, whether calling themselves a government, or by any other name.

    It is also, at all times, and in all places, the supreme law. And being everywhere and always the supreme law, it is necessarily everywhere and always the only law.
    Lawmakers, as they call themselves, can add nothing to it, nor take anything from it. Therefore all their laws, as they call them,—that is, all the laws of their own making,—have no color of authority or obligation. It is a falsehood to call them laws; for there is nothing in them that either creates men’s duties or rights, or enlightens them as to their duties or rights. There is consequently nothing binding or obligatory about them. And nobody is bound to take the least notice of them, unless it be to trample them under foot, as usurpations. If they command men to do justice, they add nothing to men’s obligation to do it, or to any man’s right to enforce it. They are therefore mere idle wind, such as would be commands to consider the day as day, and the night as night. If they command or license any man to do injustice, they are criminal on their face. If they command any man to do anything which justice does not require him to do, they are simple, naked usurpations and tyrannies. If they forbid any man to do anything, which justice would permit him to do, they are criminal invasions of his natural and rightful liberty. In whatever light, therefore, they are viewed, they are utterly destitute of everything like authority or obligation. They are all necessarily either the impudent, fraudulent, and criminal usurpations of tyrants, robbers, and murderers, or the senseless work of ignorant or thoughtless men, who do not know, or certainly do not realize, what they are doing.

    This science of justice, or natural law, is the only science that tells us what are, and what are not, each man’s natural, inherent, inalienable, individual rights, as against any and all other men. And to say that any, or all, other men may rightfully compel him to obey any or all such other laws as they may see fit to make, is to say that he has no rights of his own, but is their subject, their property, and their slave.

    For the reasons now given, the simple maintenance of justice, or natural law, is plainly the one only purpose for which any coercive power—or anything bearing the name of government—has a right to exist.

    It is intrinsically just as false, absurd, ludicrous, and ridiculous to say that lawmakers, so-called, can invent and make any laws, of their own, authoritatively fixing, or declaring, the rights of individuals, or that shall be in any manner authoritative or obligatory upon individuals, or that individuals may rightfully be compelled to obey, as it would be to say that they can invent and make such mathematics, chemistry, physiology, or other sciences, as they see fit, and rightfully compel individuals to conform all their actions to them, instead of conforming them to the mathematics, chemistry, physiology, or other sciences of nature.

    Lawmakers, as they call themselves, might just as well claim the right to abolish, by statute, the natural law of gravitation, the natural laws of light, heat, and electricity, and all the other natural laws of matter and mind, and institute laws of their own in the place of them, and compel conformity to them, as to claim the right to set aside the natural law of justice, and compel obedience to such other laws as they may see fit to manufacture, and set up in its stead.

    Let me now ask you how you imagine that your so-called lawmakers can “do equal and exact justice to all men,” by any so-called laws of their own making. If their laws command anything but justice, or forbid anything but injustice, they are themselves unjust and criminal. If they simply command justice, and forbid injustice, they add nothing to the natural authority of justice, or to men’s obligation to obey it. It is, therefore, a simple impertinence, and sheer impudence, on their part, to assume that their commands, as such, are of any authority whatever. It is also sheer impudence, on their part, to assume that their commands are at all necessary to teach other men what is, and what is not, justice. The science of justice is as open to be learned by all other men, as by themselves; and it is, in general, so simple and easy to be learned, that there is no need of, and no place for, any man, or body of men, to teach it, declare it, or command it, on their own authority.
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/sp...cleveland-1886

    And now, from a speech by Frederick Douglass given in 1869 on the question of Chinese immigration:
    There are such things in the world as human rights. They rest upon no conventional foundation, but are external, universal, and indestructible. Among these, is the right of locomotion; the right of migration; the right which belongs to no particular race, but belongs alike to all and to all alike. It is the right you assert by staying here, and your fathers asserted by coming here. It is this great right that I assert for the Chinese and Japanese, and for all other varieties of men equally with yourselves, now and forever. I know of no rights of race superior to the rights of humanity, and when there is a supposed conflict between human and national rights, it is safe to go to the side of humanity. I have great respect for the blue eyed and light haired races of America. They are a mighty people. In any struggle for the good things of this world they need have no fear. They have no need to doubt that they will get their full share.

    But I reject the arrogant and scornful theory by which they would limit migratory rights, or any other essential human rights to themselves, and which would make them the owners of this great continent to the exclusion of all other races of men.

    I want a home here not only for the negro, the mulatto and the Latin races; but I want the Asiatic to find a home here in the United States, and feel at home here, both for his sake and for ours. Right wrongs no man. If respect is had to majorities, the fact that only one fifth of the population of the globe is white, the other four fifths are colored, ought to have some weight and influence in disposing of this and similar questions. It would be a sad reflection upon the laws of nature and upon the idea of justice, to say nothing of a common Creator, if four fifths of mankind were deprived of the rights of migration to make room for the one fifth. If the white race may exclude all other races from this continent, it may rightfully do the same in respect to all other lands, islands, capes and continents, and thus have all the world to itself. Thus what would seem to belong to the whole, would become the property only of a part. So much for what is right, now let us see what is wise.
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/sp...cleveland-1886

    Both writings are excellent. And I urge everyone to read them in their entirety.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-15-2018 at 03:03 PM.

  5. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    My goodness. Instead of offering absurd personal opinions of what should be, try to base your opinions within our Constitution's boundaries. Whether you like it or not, our federal government is charged with protecting our borders against "invasions". And that would include the flood of foreigners who are entering our country in violation of our laws. Got it?


    JWK





    American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance a maternity ward for the poverty stricken populations of $#@!-hole countries who invade America’s borders to give birth.



    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I didn't say anything about my personal opinions. Moral right and wrong is not a matter of opinion.
    You expressed an opinion concerning a geographical area called the United States of America, and your personal opinion conflicts with the right of the people of the United States to exercise power over that geographical area and determine who may, or who may not, enter thereon.


    Give it a freaken break. No sane person agrees with your outlandish opinions.

    Finally, contrary to your absurd opinion, our constitution does in fact charge Congress with protecting our borders from "invasions". At least read the Constitution before making false claims about it.


    JWK



    There was a time not too long ago in New York when the able-bodied were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now, New York City and many other major cities are infested with countless government cheese factions from $#@! hole countries, who not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs, sex, and Lotto tickets.

  6. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You expressed an opinion concerning a geographical area called the United States of America
    I'm pretty sure I didn't.

    Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I'm pretty sure I didn't.

    Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.


    You wrote: "You have the right to keep them off of your own privately owned property. But you have no right to keep them off of any property that is not rightfully yours, such as the workplace of an employer who wants to hire them.

    You may not want to welcome them. But when others of us want to, it's none of your, or Trump's, business."



    Contrary to your absurd opinion, the people of the United States granted power to our federal government to protect America's borders from invasions. Are you about to suggest 10 - 20 million foreigners entering the United States in violation of its laws is not an invasion?

    What part of your anatomy do you think with?


    JWK



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  9. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    You wrote: [I]"You have the right to keep them off of your own privately owned property. But you have no right to keep them off of any property that is not rightfully yours, such as the workplace of an employer who wants to hire them.
    That's true. But that's not a matter of opinion, nor is it about the USA. That's a statement about a moral fact that has always and everywhere obtained, both inside and outside the USA, both before and after it came into existence.

    And if you do wish to relate that claim specifically to the USA, and the Constitution, per your previous claims, clearly, prohibiting employers from employing immigrants without green cards is not repelling invasion. Nor did anybody dream of expanding federal power by redefining that clause of the Constitution that way for the first century of the nation's existence.

    You also said nobody agreed with me. Well, with respect to the words you quoted, the guy this website is named after agrees with me. And it's safe to say, so do most people who align with his voluntarist political philosophy.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-15-2018 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post


    You wrote: "You have the right to keep them off of your own privately owned property. But you have no right to keep them off of any property that is not rightfully yours, such as the workplace of an employer who wants to hire them.

    You may not want to welcome them. But when others of us want to, it's none of your, or Trump's, business."



    Contrary to your absurd opinion, the people of the United States granted power to our federal government to protect America's borders from invasions. Are you about to suggest 10 - 20 million foreigners entering the United States in violation of its laws is not an invasion?

    What part of your anatomy do you think with?


    JWK
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's true.
    I always do my best to be truthful.

    JWK

  11. #219
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  12. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    The root cause of the problem is people on welfare voting for more welfare. They should not be allowed to vote. That would fix the whole immigration "problem".
    If the problem is people coming to the US because there are more opportunities to prosper than where they live, then not even that will fix the problem. The only fix for that is for the US to have less opportunity to prosper than where they are coming from and then people will stop coming.

  13. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    If the problem is people coming to the US because there are more opportunities to prosper than where they live, then not even that will fix the problem. The only fix for that is for the US to have less opportunity to prosper than where they are coming from and then people will stop coming.
    Brilliant.

  14. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Brilliant.
    Indeed

  15. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Indeed

  16. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Indeed



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  18. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's true. But that's not a matter of opinion, nor is it about the USA. That's a statement about a moral fact ...
    only in your anarchist mind...

  19. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    If the problem is people coming to the US because there are more opportunities to prosper than where they live, then not even that will fix the problem. The only fix for that is for the US to have less opportunity to prosper than where they are coming from and then people will stop coming.
    That's a silly false statement. That is the "fix" the power elite seem to be striving for.
    However, there are several other fixes. Like increasing opportunity and prosperity "where they are coming from." Perhaps by increasing free trade, removing trade barriers, exporting capitalism and the ideas of freedom to the rest of the world, and setting a better example.
    There there is the option of eliminating statist magnets of government benefits.
    Then there are national self protection fixes like vetting immigrants, limiting or controlling the rate, securing borders.
    There are thousands of other options, some better and some more statist, but these are just a few that illustrate the possibilities beyond the closed minded tunnel fallacy that there is only one option, and it must necessarily be the stupid option to strive to destroy prosperity no less.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  20. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    If the problem is people coming to the US because there are more opportunities to prosper than where they live, then not even that will fix the problem. The only fix for that is for the US to have less opportunity to prosper than where they are coming from and then people will stop coming.
    The problem is not immigration, it's socialism. One fix would be to stop welfare recipients from voting.

    I actually think illegal immigrants are a net positive, because they can't get many benefits and they can't vote. It's their legal children that are the problem.

  21. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    but most are independent operators who empty into drainage canals in violation of the law, creating ideal conditions for the spread of cholera and other diseases.
    Progressives and Bolsheviks love to whine about how the "right" is anti-science and anti-intellectual.

    Yet they think that a people who still don't understand, in the 21st century, that you don't throw, literal, $#@! in your water supply somehow bring something to the table in terms of immigration.

  22. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    If the problem is people coming to the US because there are more opportunities to prosper than where they live, then not even that will fix the problem. The only fix for that is for the US to have less opportunity to prosper than where they are coming from and then people will stop coming.
    And you have just proven my position correct: Liberty creates prosperity and prosperity attracts leeches, then leeches destroy liberty and prosperity, therefore if you want liberty you must control immigration to limit the leeches.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I actually think illegal immigrants are a net positive, because they can't get many benefits and they can't vote. It's their legal children that are the problem.
    They do BOTH whether it is legal or not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They do BOTH whether it is legal or not.
    I'm sure some do but I doubt it's a very high percentage. Remember, cheap labor benefits everyone except possibly the person doing the work.

  25. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And you have just proven my position correct: Liberty creates prosperity and prosperity attracts leeches, then leeches destroy liberty and prosperity, therefore if you want liberty you must control immigration to limit the leeches.
    The problem is that the vast majority of leeches are already here!



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  27. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    The problem is that the vast majority of leeches are already here!
    Hardly, the world is full of countries with a much higher percentage.

    In any case our proportion gets worse with each one we let in, and our hopes of improving our culture and government get worse as well.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I'm sure some do but I doubt it's a very high percentage. Remember, cheap labor benefits everyone except possibly the person doing the work.
    Since most of us are in the employee class and almost all of us will spend our entire lives there (doubly so because of big government which immigration makes worse) then it is bad.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  29. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Hardly, the world is full of countries with a much higher percentage.

    In any case our proportion gets worse with each one we let in, and our hopes of improving our culture and government get worse as well.
    You have no right to improve your culture. Your mandate is to make sure every person on the planet lives in conditions at least equal to yours. This is true despite your government efforts to the contrary - bombing and toppling governments around the world . Get busy making the world a better place, comrade.

  30. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Since most of us are in the employee class and almost all of us will spend our entire lives there (doubly so because of big government which immigration makes worse) then it is bad.
    No, that's flawed Keynesian logic. Suppose you live on a desert island with a few hundred people and some goofy guy washes up onshore. He grows his own food and catches his own fish and works for free because he likes it. the Austrian economist understands that his free labor benefits everyone on the island because now stuff is cheaper, the Keynesian economist mistakenly claims it's a negative because his free labor is displacing paid workers.

  31. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    No, that's flawed Keynesian logic. Suppose you live on a desert island with a few hundred people and some goofy guy washes up onshore. He grows his own food and catches his own fish and works for free because he likes it. the Austrian economist understands that his free labor benefits everyone on the island because now stuff is cheaper, the Keynesian economist mistakenly claims it's a negative because his free labor is displacing paid workers.
    In order to be closer to reality please change the scenario to a few thousand goofy guys washing up onshore.

  32. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Hardly, the world is full of countries with a much higher percentage.

    In any case our proportion gets worse with each one we let in, and our hopes of improving our culture and government get worse as well.
    I agree but I think it's only a tiny part of the problem and even if we were able to completely prevent everyone from entering we'd still be on the same path to socialism, maybe we'd delay it by 1% or so.

  33. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    In order to be closer to reality please change the scenario to a few thousand goofy guys washing up onshore.
    LOL!

    My strategy is to save money on Chinese products and spend the savings at Mexican restaurants.

  34. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    My strategy is to save money on Chinese products and spend the savings at Mexican restaurants.
    Sounds like a winning strategy for a pushover.



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