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Thread: 1776 & 1789

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Go ahead and teach me what is so wonderful about Canada and the UK, the burden of proof lies with you.
    It's not that they're wonderful, just that they're not as tyrannical as the USA, which I hope you'll admit isn't saying much.

    So let's start with Canada vs. US. Overall, Canada ranks as the 6th most free country, according to Cato, while the USA ranks 23rd.

    You've mentioned freedom of speech a few times already. Well, on that issue, Canada beats the US. Canada's score on the expression and information category is 9.32. The US gets a score of 9.05.

    The other factor on the human freedom column (i.e. everything that's not economic freedom) where Canada is noticeably more free than the USA is rule of law, where Canada gets a score of 7.44 and the USA gets 6.73.

    For the total on the human freedom column, Canada's score is 9.24, while the USA's is 8.79. This makes the USA the 28th most free country when looking just at Cato's human freedom categories, while Canada is 15th.

    Turning to economic freedom, again Canada has more economic freedom than the USA does. Canada's total economic freedom score is 7.98, making it the 5th most economically free country in the world, while the USA's score is 7.75, making it the 16th most economically free.

    https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.o...s-update-4.pdf



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Go ahead and teach me what is so wonderful about Canada and the UK, the burden of proof lies with you.





    Freedom of speech is dying, gun rights are long dead and they have cradle to grave socialism and those are just the issues that come to mind easily.

    Unless you can show some way that Canada and the UK are fundamentally more free than America there is no point in continuing this discussion.

    Also American states vary wildly from one another so any attempt to judge the Nation as a whole is foolish.

    I won't agree but I may take your opinion seriously when you tell me you are moving to one of these places you think is so much better, until then this opinion like so many others you espouse really is superfluous.
    I can do that. Neither Canadians nor folks in the UK live in places with so many laws they commit an average of 3 felonies a day without even trying. They also don't have to fear militarized police. Those are nice freedoms to enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  5. #33
    Here's Heritage's rankings. This is strictly economic freedom. You can see that their results are pretty comparable to Cato's on the economic side.

    On this list, USA is the 17th most economically free. Canada is 7th. UK is 12th.

    Hong Kong is #1 and New Zealand is #3.
    http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

    Clearly, ceasing to be British colonies did not result in the USA being more free than other places that remained British colonies until much later in history.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It's not that they're wonderful, just that they're not as tyrannical as the USA, which I hope you'll admit isn't saying much.

    So let's start with Canada vs. US. Overall, Canada ranks as the 6th most free country, according to Cato, while the USA ranks 23rd.

    You've mentioned freedom of speech a few times already. Well, on that issue, Canada beats the US. Canada's score on the expression and information category is 9.32. The US gets a score of 9.05.

    The other factor on the human freedom column (i.e. everything that's not economic freedom) where Canada is noticeably more free than the USA is rule of law, where Canada gets a score of 7.44 and the USA gets 6.73.

    For the total on the human freedom column, Canada's score is 9.24, while the USA's is 8.79. This makes the USA the 28th most free country when looking just at Cato's human freedom categories, while Canada is 15th.

    Turning to economic freedom, again Canada has more economic freedom than the USA does. Canada's total economic freedom score is 7.98, making it the 5th most economically free country in the world, while the USA's score is 7.75, making it the 16th most economically free.

    https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.o...s-update-4.pdf
    I don't care about CATO's stupid numbers, you can be prosecuted for criticizing islam in Canada so there is no way they are ahead on freedom of speech, give me some concrete examples of fundamental freedoms that they are ahead of us on or this conversation is over.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Here's the Fraser Institute's list. Again, this is just economic freedom and again the results are pretty similar to the others. Here the USA is 16th. Canada's 9th. UK's 11th. Hong Kong again tops the list.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...m_of_the_World

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I can do that. Neither Canadians nor folks in the UK live in places with so many laws they commit an average of 3 felonies a day without even trying.
    I would bet otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    They also don't have to fear militarized police. Those are nice freedoms to enjoy.
    The number of people killed by police while too high is still negligible, and they have to worry about being killed by criminals while have not having guns to defend themselves.


    If you like Canada or the UK so much move there and enjoy yourself.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    you can be prosecuted for criticizing islam in Canada
    Source?

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Source?
    Free speech, eh? Why is Canada prosecuting Mark Steyn?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/free-speech-eh-why-is-canada-prosecuting-mark-steyn-1.720445
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Free speech, eh? Why is Canada prosecuting Mark Steyn?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/free-speech-eh-why-is-canada-prosecuting-mark-steyn-1.720445
    That's a pretty old article, in addition to being entirely unhelpful. In the decade since then, while the USA has gotten progressively less free, Canada has gotten more free. And on top of that, I couldn't find anything in the article to support the claim made in the headline that Steyn is being prosecuted for anything. All it says is that some "quasi-judicial panel" (whatever that means) is hearing a complaint about his book. There is no mention of any Canadian law he has broken or any punishment that he could be given, or any authority at all that is wielded by this "quasi-judicial panel."

    When you said you read hundreds or thousands of sources, is this article typical of the stuff you meant?

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The number of people killed by police while too high is still negligible
    And how about the number of people in prison?



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's a pretty old article, in addition to being entirely unhelpful. In the decade since then, while the USA has gotten progressively less free, Canada has gotten more free. And on top of that, I couldn't find anything in the article to support the claim made in the headline that Steyn is being prosecuted for anything. All it says is that some "quasi-judicial panel" (whatever that means) is hearing a complaint about his book. There is no mention of any Canadian law he has broken or any punishment that he could be given, or any authority at all that is wielded by this "quasi-judicial panel."

    When you said you read hundreds or thousands of sources, is this article typical of the stuff you meant?
    It is the one that came to mind the easiest, there are many others, you have yet to show me anything at all to show that Canada is better than America.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    And how about the number of people in prison?
    What about all the people killed and robbed because they aren't allowed guns?

    This is exactly the kind of petty quibbling I am not going to get into, you won't/can't show me any fundamental freedoms that are in better shape in Canada or the UK so I am not going to play this game anymore.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What about all the people killed and robbed because they aren't allowed guns?
    A pretty small number.

    I did say already, though, that I would grant you the point about the right to keep and bear arms.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    you have yet to show me anything at all to show that Canada is better than America.
    Other than the three separate freedom indices I showed you?

    So far, I am the only one here who's actually backed up my claims with factual sources.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Other than the three separate freedom indices I showed you?

    So far, I am the only one here who's actually backed up my claims with factual sources.
    You have shown numbers from some indices, show me some actual fundamental freedoms they have better than we do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    The number of people killed by police while too high is still negligible, and they have to worry about being killed by criminals while have not having guns to defend themselves. If you like Canada or the UK so much move there and enjoy yourself.
    Mike Rozeff explains the failings of the "love it or leave it" fallacy here. Come at me with logic next time, bro.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  20. #47
    We still have the first amendment. Canada not. As an example, David Irving has been arrested, jailed, deported and banned from future entry in to Canada. All for his research into the so-called ďHolocaust.Ē


    They give you a hefty fine for ďJaywalking ď or crossing a street when the traffic light is flashing donít walk, even though the light is still green and you can hurry and make it across before it turns red.


    we had a US pilot blow off a Jaywalking ticket in Calgary. A couple of years latter he is on a flight with a layover in Calgary. They arrested him and sent him to jail.

    Freedom my ass.


    Now letís talk about their mandatory healthcare...etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people too.



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  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You have shown numbers from some indices, show me some actual fundamental freedoms they have better than we do.
    Each of those indices has the explanations you're looking for.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Was what worth what?

    You mention vague connections between the US existing and world communism. But I can't tell what you're asking.
    Without Louis XVI's subsidies for the colonists, the American revolution would likely have failed, and the French revolution (source of modern communism) would likely have never occurred. I'm asking whether that outcome (neither a [successful] American revolution nor a French revolution) would have been preferable to what actually occurred. My answer is yes, it would have been, because whatever modest gain for liberty was achieved with the founding of the United States is massively outweighed by the huge blow for freedom brought about by the French revolution. Of course, absent a time-machine, this is purely academic, but there you have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    I'm sorry but economically as well. It's much easier in the US, if you work hard and are persistent, to increase your wealth and subsequently living standards.
    Economic Freedom Index
    UK = 12th
    US = 17th

    International Property Rights Index
    UK = 13th
    US = 14th

    Ease of Doing Business Index
    US = 6th
    UK = 7th

    And, as Superfluous Man mentioned (though this incorporates non-economic issues as well)

    Human Freedom Index
    UK = 6th
    US = 23rd

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