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Thread: 1776 & 1789

  1. #1

    Default 1776 & 1789

    Something's been weighing on my mind recently.

    The United States would not exist but for massive expenditures by the King of France, Louis XVI.

    And those same expenditures precipitated the communist revolt of 1789 in France, which brought us world communism, ultimately.

    Was it worth it?

    In short, no: clearly not.

    There never was much difference between England and this country, and certainly isn't now.

    What a damn shame.

    /speech



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  3. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Something's been weighing on my mind recently.

    The United States would not exist but for massive expenditures by the King of France, Louis XVI.

    And those same expenditures precipitated the communist revolt of 1789 in France, which brought us world communism, ultimately.

    Was it worth it?

    In short, no: clearly not.

    There never was much difference between England and this country, and certainly isn't now.

    What a damn shame.

    /speech
    For the French it was clearly a waste of money (like all foreign interventionism/imperialism), however we have been greatly benefited by our independence from England.

    We may have been able to win the Revolution without French help but it would have taken longer.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    For the French it was clearly a waste of money (like all foreign interventionism/imperialism), however we have been greatly benefited by our independence from England.

    We may have been able to win the Revolution without French help but it would have taken longer.
    How so?

    In terms of taxes and spending it's a wash, at least in the long run.

  5. #4

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    How so?

    In terms of taxes and spending it's a wash, at least in the long run.
    We have had and still have greater freedom than our cousins across the pond.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We have had and still have greater freedom than our cousins across the pond.
    How so?

    Certainly not in economic terms.

    ...which, if you recall, was the original point of the whole exercise.

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    How so?

    Certainly not in economic terms.

    ...which, if you recall, was the original point of the whole exercise.
    The Bill of Rights etc. which are more important than the money issues.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The Bill of Rights etc. which are more important than the money issues.
    And which part of that is intact, as compared to England?

    We have the right to due process, for instance, ...unless a secret court calls us a terrorist.

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And which part of that is intact, as compared to England?

    We have the right to due process, for instance, ...unless a secret court calls us a terrorist.
    They are all in better shape here than England, last I checked England's gun rights were essentially dead for instance.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are all in better shape here than England, last I checked England's gun rights were essentially dead for instance.
    O, boy, gun rights...

    ...so I'll hold a gun while paying my 40% taxes.

    The reality is there is very little difference between England and the US.

    This is the fruit of universal suffrage: same here as in England, Austria, France...any other place blighted by democracy.

    Hence my point; no 1789 for no 1776 would have been a terribly good deal.

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    O, boy, gun rights...

    ...so I'll hold a gun while paying my 40% taxes.

    The reality is there is very little difference between England and the US.

    This is the fruit of universal suffrage: same here as in England, Austria, France...any other place blighted by democracy.
    Gun rights and ALL the rest plus less socialism, we may be in bad shape here but England is far worse.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #12

    Default

    If you say so..

    You're rather hopped up about the West.

    Well, the West started its decline on January 30, 1649.

    And it won't improve until that's recognized.

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Was it worth it?
    Was what worth what?

    You mention vague connections between the US existing and world communism. But I can't tell what you're asking.

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Gun rights and ALL the rest plus less socialism, we may be in bad shape here but England is far worse.
    The UK may be slightly worse off. But former British colonies, like Canada and Hong Kong, are more free than the US.

  16. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    How so?

    Certainly not in economic terms.

    ...which, if you recall, was the original point of the whole exercise.
    I'm sorry but economically as well. It's much easier in the US, if you work hard and are persistent, to increase your wealth and subsequently living standards.
    "I am a bird"

  17. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The UK may be slightly worse off. But former British colonies, like Canada and Hong Kong, are more free than the US.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL
    I take it back. I was wrong about the UK. They've also overtaken us in freedom.
    https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index

  19. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I take it back. I was wrong about the UK. They've also overtaken us in freedom.
    https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
    Fake freedom index.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Fake freedom index.
    What's a better one? You choose, and we'll go with that one.

  21. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    What's a better one? You choose, and we'll go with that one.
    I don't know of any that I trust, I haven't looked into that kind of thing.

    But I know we have better rights and less socialism in America than in any part of the former British Empire.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't know of any that I trust, I haven't looked into that kind of thing.

    But I know we have better rights and less socialism in America than in any part of the former British Empire.
    Even New Zealand? Even Hong Kong?

    If you've never looked into it, then how could you possibly know that we have better rights and less socialism in the US than any part of the former British Empire?

    Given how contrary to known facts that claim is, what's your basis for it? I'll give you gun rights. But how about everything else?

  23. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Even New Zealand? Even Hong Kong?

    If you've never looked into it, then how could you possibly know that we have better rights and less socialism in the US than any part of the former British Empire?

    Given how contrary to known facts that claim is, what's your basis for it? I'll give you gun rights. But how about everything else?
    I haven't looked into "freedom indexes", I have read about other places and their governments.

    Freedom of speech is dying faster in the rest of the world and they are far more socialist than we are among other issues, I'm sure you can find places that are more free than we are on individual facets but very few places are in our league when you consider the full spectrum, we most certainly would have been worse off without the Revolution, furthermore the rest of the world copied American freedoms and would not have ever been as free without our example.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I have read about other places and their governments.
    OK. Let's go with that. What sources did you read about them in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    we most certainly would have been worse off without the Revolution
    Can you find any evidence to support this claim?

  25. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    OK. Let's go with that. What sources did you read about them in?
    Many different places.

    I'm not going to waste any more time on this stupid debate, if you like the former British Empire so much move there and enjoy it, you won't be missed.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Many different places.

    I'm not going to waste any more time on this stupid debate, if you like the former British Empire so much move there and enjoy it, you won't be missed.
    Just to be clear, you can't come up with a single shred of evidence to support your assertions. Is that right?

  27. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Just to be clear, you can't come up with a single shred of evidence to support your assertions. Is that right?
    I'm not going to waste my time chasing down facts I've read in hundreds if not thousands of sources over the course of many years in order to debate your claims that places with more socialism and government control of their citizens are somehow more free than Americans, if you like the former British Empire so much move there and enjoy it, you won't be missed.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm not going to waste my time chasing down facts I've read in hundreds if not thousands of sources over the course of many years in order to debate your claims that places with more socialism and government control of their citizens are somehow more free than Americans, if you like the former British Empire so much move there and enjoy it, you won't be missed.
    But you can't remember just one of those hundreds or thousands of sources?

    I'm not talking about places that have more socialism and government control than America. I'm talking about the many places on the globe that have less socialism and government control than America. Such as the ones you can see listed as more free than the USA on any one of the various freedom indices that we could check.

  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    But you can't remember just one of those hundreds or thousands of sources?
    It's not worth my time, you would nitpick and debate each little point or claim that just than one thing doesn't matter etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I'm not talking about places that have more socialism and government control than America. I'm talking about the many places on the globe that have less socialism and government control than America. Such as the ones you can see listed as more free than the USA on any one of the various freedom indices that we could check.
    Like Canada and the UK?
    This is really the last reply I am going to give you, please move to one of the places you think is so much better and stop plaguing this site with your opinions.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's not worth my time, you would nitpick and debate each little point or claim that just than one thing doesn't matter etc.
    So. That's how you learn. You're open to learning. Aren't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Like Canada and the UK?
    Yes. Both of those are listed among the nations that are more free, having less socialism and smaller government than the USA, when all factors are considered, in the Cato freedom index I provided.

    Are those among the ones you've read about in your hundreds or thousands of sources?

  31. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So. That's how you learn. You're open to learning. Aren't you?
    Go ahead and teach me what is so wonderful about Canada and the UK, the burden of proof lies with you.




    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Yes. Both of those are listed among the nations that are more free, having less socialism and smaller government than the USA, when all factors are considered, in the Cato freedom index I provided.

    Are those among the ones you've read about in your hundreds or thousands of sources?
    Freedom of speech is dying, gun rights are long dead and they have cradle to grave socialism and those are just the issues that come to mind easily.

    Unless you can show some way that Canada and the UK are fundamentally more free than America there is no point in continuing this discussion.

    Also American states vary wildly from one another so any attempt to judge the Nation as a whole is foolish.

    I won't agree but I may take your opinion seriously when you tell me you are moving to one of these places you think is so much better, until then this opinion like so many others you espouse really is superfluous.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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