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Thread: Three Reasons to join the Eastern Orthodox Church

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Engaging in debates or even watching them is good because it shows that you are still willing to learn. As much as you might think I'm stubborn, the first time a worldview comes by mine that is contrary to it, I want to engage it so I can learn new things.
    You know full well that Orthodoxy does not teach penal substitution. TER, HB, RJB, and I all know full well that Orthodoxy does not teach penal substitution.
    The only reason for you to bring that up is to publicly attack Orthodoxy in front of those who don't live it. Learning was not intended to be part of that exchange.

    @AF,
    Penal substitution is a Roman deviation from older Christology, which makes it even more amusing SF is carrying water for it (I didn't know he was so fond of papist theology).
    If you are genuinely interested in Orthodox theology, you're going to get a lot of what HB did: "Well, here's what the earliest writing says on it, and the fact that your reformation-theology teachers didn't ever mention that this was a thing isn't really Orthodoxy's problem".

    In the past Erowe1 (who actually did read this stuff) would argue with TER about the meaning of what was written... once you get into Orthodoxy you see pretty regularly that people with reformation baggage and a Greek lexicon pretend to understand something better than literally two millennia of people who spoke Greek natively and treat said document as a primary source.

    The bottom line is, like I wrote before, none of this has changed. The Orthodox understanding of Christianity has remained what it is for as long as we have written records to show it, and that goes back to people who knew the apostles.

    If you believe that the apostles believed something that they didn't write down and didn't teach to anyone after them, and that the reformers discovered this truth after 15 centuries of people going to hell for believing the wrong thing about Christ, then SF's theology makes perfect sense.
    If you have a fundamental problem with a god that would do that, then please, look further into Orthodoxy, because our God would not do that.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    You know full well that Orthodoxy does not teach penal substitution. .
    Oh Good,, and thank you for the nice explanation.

    Penal substitution
    I was afraid it was some Roman phallic worship or something equally as odd.

    Can't be too careful these days.. but I run linux, so I searched anyway.
    I guess its some theological position based on the punishments of a vengeful and Angry god.

    Based on the same word as Penitentiary.

    God Set me Free There.



    Penal substitution?
    Sounds like trading one dick for another,,

    But there are a lot of old errors.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-15-2018 at 11:21 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    You know full well that Orthodoxy does not teach penal substitution. TER, HB, RJB, and I all know full well that Orthodoxy does not teach penal substitution.
    The only reason for you to bring that up is to publicly attack Orthodoxy in front of those who don't live it. Learning was not intended to be part of that exchange.

    @AF,
    Penal substitution is a Roman deviation from older Christology, which makes it even more amusing SF is carrying water for it (I didn't know he was so fond of papist theology).
    If you are genuinely interested in Orthodox theology, you're going to get a lot of what HB did: "Well, here's what the earliest writing says on it, and the fact that your reformation-theology teachers didn't ever mention that this was a thing isn't really Orthodoxy's problem".

    In the past Erowe1 (who actually did read this stuff) would argue with TER about the meaning of what was written... once you get into Orthodoxy you see pretty regularly that people with reformation baggage and a Greek lexicon pretend to understand something better than literally two millennia of people who spoke Greek natively and treat said document as a primary source.

    The bottom line is, like I wrote before, none of this has changed. The Orthodox understanding of Christianity has remained what it is for as long as we have written records to show it, and that goes back to people who knew the apostles.

    If you believe that the apostles believed something that they didn't write down and didn't teach to anyone after them, and that the reformers discovered this truth after 15 centuries of people going to hell for believing the wrong thing about Christ, then SF's theology makes perfect sense.
    If you have a fundamental problem with a god that would do that, then please, look further into Orthodoxy, because our God would not do that.
    HB said he learned it in catechism class. That's why I was so confused.

    He told me I didn't know what I was talking about.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Because God uses the means of preaching the word to bring people to Himself.
    Which directly contradicts what you just said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I believe that God ALONE causes people to come to Himself. It's not up to my cunning language or devices to "lead" people to God. I have a supernatural theology of salvation, not a man centered one.
    Any rational person reading that would come to the conclusion that you believe that no earthly teaching, preaching, outreach or prophecy leads anybody to seek salvation and forgiveness through Christ.

    The only way is for a supernatural smack in the back of the head from God himself.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Which directly contradicts what you just said:



    Any rational person reading that would come to the conclusion that you believe that no earthly teaching, preaching, outreach or prophecy leads anybody to seek salvation and forgiveness through Christ.

    The only way is for a supernatural smack in the back of the head from God himself.
    No. Not a contradiction. The only reason that a person responds to the gospel is that God opens his heart. The gospel has a 100 percent success rate. The people who preach the gospel have a 100 percent success rate.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    HB said he learned it in catechism class. That's why I was so confused.
    Well in the spirit of learning, I'll tell you that every catechumen class is different. Mine was pretty light on details. We spent a lot of time on the history of the Filioque, but other than that, the priest was pretty up-front about the fact that he was giving us the minimum required to start participating in the sacraments.

    That is something that Fr Barnabas brings up in the videos I linked to earlier: Orthodoxy is an experiential religion. As he puts it, the Western mindset is to see something interesting, and then tear it apart and reduce it to its most basic components. The Orthodox mindset is to watch it and experience it, and often to draw parallels to other things.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Well in the spirit of learning, I'll tell you that every catechumen class is different. Mine was pretty light on details. We spent a lot of time on the history of the Filioque, but other than that, the priest was pretty up-front about the fact that he was giving us the minimum required to start participating in the sacraments.

    That is something that Fr Barnabas brings up in the videos I linked to earlier: Orthodoxy is an experiential religion. As he puts it, the Western mindset is to see something interesting, and then tear it apart and reduce it to its most basic components. The Orthodox mindset is to watch it and experience it, and often to draw parallels to other things.
    Right. Mormonism is an experiential religion too. Mormons say they feel a burning in their core and that is the confirmation that their religion is true.

    Experiences must all be true and must all be equally valid, right?

    Or is Satan in the churches masquerading as an angel of light?

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right. Mormonism is an experiential religion too. Mormons say they feel a burning in their core and that is the confirmation that their religion is true.

    Experiences must all be true and must all be equally valid, right?

    Or is Satan in the churches masquerading as an angel of light?
    For the benefit of those who are actually trying to learn,
    At no point did I say any of that about Orthodoxy. I DID say, clearly, that Orthodoxy is a faith that exists outside the comprehension of any one man.
    How can you draw a parallel between a faith that has maintained consistency for 2000 years among hundreds of major theologians despite having unfathomable concepts as its fundamental tenets, and a faith that fractured immediately despite having eliminated all those unfathomable concepts?
    We experience Orthodoxy out of humility - out of recognition that the Holy Spirit - the third person of the Trinity whom we actually spend some time thinking and talking about - has granted us this faith.
    We tend not to be arrogant enough to think that we're going to make more sense out of it than He does.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  11. #69
    One of the things I've never understood about the Eastern Orthodox apologetic is that they say they have preserved the worship of the early church.

    1. There is nothing until the fourth century that we have to point to a consensus liturgy, and Iraneus from the second century was against icons, calling them pagan.

    2. The churches at the time of the apostles was constantly being corrected by the apostles for falling into error. Being the "earliest" is not a convincing apologetic.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No. Not a contradiction. The only reason that a person responds to the gospel is that God opens his heart. The gospel has a 100 percent success rate. The people who preach the gospel have a 100 percent success rate.
    Right, and a person gives the gospel to another, reads the gospel to another, teaches the gospel to another.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    One of the things I've never understood about the Eastern Orthodox apologetic is that they say they have preserved the worship of the early church.

    1. There is nothing until the fourth century that we have to point to a consensus liturgy, and Iraneus from the second century was against icons, calling them pagan.

    2. The churches at the time of the apostles was constantly being corrected by the apostles for falling into error. Being the "earliest" is not a convincing apologetic.
    Mark 7:13
    “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    For the benefit of those who are actually trying to learn,
    At no point did I say any of that about Orthodoxy. I DID say, clearly, that Orthodoxy is a faith that exists outside the comprehension of any one man.
    How can you draw a parallel between a faith that has maintained consistency for 2000 years among hundreds of major theologians despite having unfathomable concepts as its fundamental tenets, and a faith that fractured immediately despite having eliminated all those unfathomable concepts?
    We experience Orthodoxy out of humility - out of recognition that the Holy Spirit - the third person of the Trinity whom we actually spend some time thinking and talking about - has granted us this faith.
    We tend not to be arrogant enough to think that we're going to make more sense out of it than He does.
    The "consistency" is all just church mythology. You've accepted it uncritically.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Mark 7:13
    “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”
    What does that have to do with what I said?

    It's not enough to quote a verse in the Bible without expounding on it and making an application to the topic at hand. No offense, but I don't think you have the capacity to do that.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What does that have to do with what I said?

    It's not enough to quote a verse in the Bible without expounding on it and making an application to the topic at hand. No offense, but I don't think you have the capacity to do that.
    It has everything to do with your second point. I will add the churches of our time continue to do the same things. Using Tradition of men rather than teaching the Word as it should be taught.

    Line by line, precept by precept... (Isaiah 28:10)

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Mark 7:13
    “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

    2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    (King James Bible, 2 Thessalonians)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It has everything to do with your second point. I will add the churches of our time continue to do the same things. Using Tradition of men rather than teaching the Word as it should be taught.

    Line by line, precept by precept... (Isaiah 28:10)

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Interesting thing about Orthodox tradtion is that many are didactic, dedicated entirely to teaching the Truth of the Gospel. There is a whole section of Divine Liturgy called "Liturgy Of The Word", and scripture is quoted directly several dozen times (IDR the exact number right now). There is also a Gospel and Epistle reading every week from the liturgical calendar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It has everything to do with your second point. I will add the churches of our time continue to do the same things. Using Tradition of men rather than teaching the Word as it should be taught.

    Line by line, precept by precept... (Isaiah 28:10)

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Oh I see the point you were making. Yes, that is true.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    (King James Bible, 2 Thessalonians)
    Mark 7:1-13 (KJV)

    7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

    2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

    3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

    4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

    5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

    6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Interesting thing about Orthodox tradtion is that many are didactic, dedicated entirely to teaching the Truth of the Gospel. There is a whole section of Divine Liturgy called "Liturgy Of The Word", and scripture is quoted directly several dozen times (IDR the exact number right now). There is also a Gospel and Epistle reading every week from the liturgical calendar.
    It takes about five years to get through the Bible from beginning to end. However, if people do not understand there was an earth age prior to our time here, it will be harder for people to understand the ending--the second coming.

    Do you believe in a Rapture?
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It takes about five years to get through the Bible from beginning to end.
    I read it through twice my first year,, though I did not understand all I read..

    That has come a piece at a time,, and over years. And it is still opening up.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  25. #81
    So, the Orthodox Church is being accused of following the traditions of men when we worship as the Apostles taught? The irony is that the accusers follow traditions and dogma invented in the 1500s or later. What's that about the plank in one's eye?
    ...

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    So, the Orthodox Church is being accused of following the traditions of men when we worship as the Apostles taught? The irony is that the accusers follow traditions and dogma invented in the 1500s or later. What's that about the plank in one's eye?
    Wrong . The claim that the EOC worships how the apostles did is mythology.

  27. #83
    I, personally, do not promote any Religion..
    But I also do not want to denigrate any,,

    The Word of God,, and the basic message of the Gospel is in all Christian Churches as is error that is inherent in man.

    A full understanding of the mechanics and law is not required for salvation.
    How and why God does all that he does,, and the Full Plan are not required for salvation.

    That is simple,, Growing and learning is part of the process,, but that comes later.

    Religion,, in my experience, Muddies the waters. They make the simple difficult and confusing.
    Perhaps it gives some order to those that need it.

    I am simply a believer,, I believe that God created Us, and Redeemed us for His own Purpose.
    I believe that God walked among his creation,, lived with us,, and was killed,, And Rose from the Dead,
    And I believe that His Death redeemed me.

    It is not necessary to fully understand the mechanics and laws involved,, to accept the gift of salvation.
    Only That Jesus Christ died for the sin of all mankind. Period.

    It is simple really.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Wrong . The claim that the EOC worships how the apostles did is mythology.
    Pretending that you are correct, at least there is a structure for a mythology because of the Holy Spirit's guidance, we haven't changed.

    However this can't be said of your beliefs ( I won't even call it a church). They change continuously. The place you attend may change and call you a heritic in less than a year. If the Holy Spirit truly guided your beliefs, he'd have to be ruled schizophrenic. Thank God He is not.

    Even your name Faith Alone has morphed into many different meanings to the point that you no longer believe in Faith Alone, but rather by Predestination Alone.
    ...

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I read it through twice my first year,, though I did not understand all I read..

    That has come a piece at a time,, and over years. And it is still opening up.
    Yes, I understand the Word is always fluid-- picking up new things and understanding as you go. One of the reason it is good to stay in His Word everyday.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I, personally, do not promote any Religion..
    But I also do not want to denigrate any,,


    The Word of God,, and the basic message of the Gospel is in all Christian Churches as is error that is inherent in man.

    A full understanding of the mechanics and law is not required for salvation.
    How and why God does all that he does,, and the Full Plan are not required for salvation.

    That is simple,, Growing and learning is part of the process,, but that comes later.

    Religion,, in my experience, Muddies the waters. They make the simple difficult and confusing.
    Perhaps it gives some order to those that need it.

    I am simply a believer,, I believe that God created Us, and Redeemed us for His own Purpose.
    I believe that God walked among his creation,, lived with us,, and was killed,, And Rose from the Dead,
    And I believe that His Death redeemed me.

    It is not necessary to fully understand the mechanics and laws involved,, to accept the gift of salvation.
    Only That Jesus Christ died for the sin of all mankind. Period.

    It is simple really.
    I absolutely agree.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  31. #87
    The Bible really is God's Truth, but there is so much to take in and so much subject to misinterpretation. You would think that God would have given us a "pillar and foundation" for that heavy truth. One that never changes.



    1 Tim 3:15
    ...

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Yes, I understand the Word is always fluid-- picking up new things and understanding as you go. One of the reason it is good to stay in His Word everyday.
    +1 and that is why I check your "verse of the day".

    Though there are a multitude of good personal devotionals as well,,,
    (the Bibletime program has several)

    All are helps,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    The Bible really is God's Truth, but there is so much to take in and so much subject to misinterpretation. You would think that God would have given us a "pillar and foundation" for that heavy truth. One that never changes.



    1 Tim 3:15
    Does/Did

    Christ is the Rock,,the Foundation, The Holy Spirit gives that knowledge through Revelation.
    What has been revealed is shared, and the Father is Glorified.

    it is very simple.

    (in me best pirate voice)
    "it's not so much a Code as it is a Guide"

    I read the Bible as the Mistakes made by others as much as the Works of Gods Redemption of man.
    And there is much to learn from the mistakes of others.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-16-2018 at 01:43 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    The Bible really is God's Truth, but there is so much to take in and so much subject to misinterpretation. You would think that God would have given us a "pillar and foundation" for that heavy truth. One that never changes.



    1 Tim 3:15
    One of the reasons why I like study tools: KJV (1611), Companion Bible (KJV), Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and The Interlinear Bible. IMHO, these are a must to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

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