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Thread: Three Reasons to join the Eastern Orthodox Church

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It takes about five years to get through the Bible from beginning to end. However, if people do not understand there was an earth age prior to our time here, it will be harder for people to understand the ending--the second coming.

    Do you believe in a Rapture?
    "Rapture", as it is used in "Left Behind" and most other contexts today, is not only false but heresy. It is not believed by Orthodox, Catholics, or mainline Protestants.

    http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010...an-heresy.html
    As I was driving one day I encountered a bumper sticker admonishing me:

    “WARNING! In the event of Rapture, this car will be driverless.”

    The strange belief in the Rapture teaches that some day (sooner rather
    than later), without warning, born-again Christians will begin to float
    up from the freeway, abandoned vehicles careening wildly. There will be
    airliners in the sky suddenly with no one at the controls! Presumably,

    God is removing these favored ones from earth to spare them the

    tribulation of the Anti-Christ which the rest of us will have to endure.
    Unfortunately the Rapture has been promoted widely by the Left Behind series of books that have sold over 70 million copies.
    The Rapture represents a radical misinterpretation of Scripture. I
    remember watching “Sixty Minutes” a year ago and was appalled to hear
    the announcer say that “the Rapture is an unmistakenly Christian
    doctrine”. It is not!

    It is a serious distortion of Scripture.

    It is astonishing that a belief so contrary to Scripture and the
    tradition of the Church could be propagated by so-called “Christians”.
    According to the Bible and according to the belief not only of Orthodox
    Christians but also of the Roman Catholic and most Protestant mainline
    churches, the true Rapture will not be secret; it will be the great and
    very visible Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world. That is the

    one and only “Rapture”. It will not be a separate, secret event but one

    that "every eye shall see" (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
    The word rapture is not found in Scripture but hearkens to 1 Thess. 4:17
    where St. Paul says that when the Lord comes again “we who are
    alive…shall be caught up…in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”
    This “being caught up…in the clouds” — <i>arpagisometha</i> in Greek - is translated by some as “raptured”. The word itself is not found in Orthodox theology.
    The notion of a rapture in which Christ comes unseen to take believers

    away secretly, and only later comes back again for everyone else

    publicly—this whole teaching is quite novel. It was almost unheard of
    until John Nelson Darby formulated it in the 1800s as part of a new
    approach to the Bible, sometimes called “dispensationalism”.
    The purpose of the “Rapture” is to protect the elect from the
    tribulations of the end times. Yet Jesus said nothing about sparing
    anyone from tribulation. In fact, He said, “In the world you have

    tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.”

    Nowhere did Jesus ever say that He would return secretly to rapture the
    elect. Rather, He promised to be with His elect in all tribulations.
    “Lo, I am with you always. I will never leave you or forsake you.” He
    even had something good to say about being persecuted: “Blessed are
    those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the
    kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:10).

    Those who espouse the Rapture claim that Matthew 24:40-41 refers clearly

    to the rapture of the just, “Then shall two be in the field; the one
    shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the
    mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
    The entire passage, however, refers to Christ’s second coming where He
    will judge the living and the dead and separate the just from the
    unjust.

    Darby taught as dogma that when the Scriptures reveal that the Lord will

    reign on earth for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4), this figure is to be
    taken literally, rather than as a symbol for eternity as we believe. The
    Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431 condemned as heresy this teaching which
    is called Chialiasmos (millenianism or 1000 years).
    In fact, the Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787 A.D.) in which the
    essential truths of the Christian faith were defined never mention a

    rapture. Yet Evangelical Christians and Pentecostals keep using obscure

    passages of the Book of Revelation which purport to give a detailed
    timetable of what will happen at the end of the world, despite the fact
    that Jesus Himself warned that no man knows either the day or the hour
    when the Son of Man shall return.
    A major problem with the Rapture is that it ends up teaching not two but
    three comings of Jesus — first His birth in Bethlehem; second, His

    secret coming to snatch away (rapture) the “born-again”; and third, His

    coming at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and to
    reign in glory. Yet only two not three comings of Christ are mentioned
    in the Bible. We have the clearest definition of this in the Nicene
    Creed when we confess that “the Lord Jesus Christ…will come again in
    glory to judge the living and the dead. His Kingdom will have no end…. I
    expect the resurrection of the dead. And the life of the ages to come.”

    There is no mention of a “Rapture”.

    As already stated, most Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholics and
    Protestants do not believe in the Rapture. In fact, one Protestant
    pastor, John L. Gray, summarized magnificently what we Orthodox and most
    other Christians believe about the Rapture when he wrote these
    remarkable words:
    "Though many believe and teach this 'Pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory,

    they erroneously do so, because neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, nor

    any of the other writers of the Bible taught this. Nor did the early
    Church Fathers, nor any others for many hundreds of years…. Did you know
    that NONE of this was ever taught prior to 1812, and that all forms of
    Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching were developed since that date? …. If I
    were to preach something, or believe something, supposedly from the
    Bible, but cannot find that ANYONE ELSE before 1812 ever believed it or

    taught it, I would seriously question that it is based on the Bible."

    Thus the Rapture is foreign to the Bible and to the living tradition of
    the Church. It is what we call a heresy, a false teaching. False
    teachings, such as this, happen when people — like John Darby — believe
    that they have the right to interpret the Scriptures individually apart
    from the Living Body of Christ — the Church — where the Spirit of Truth
    abides and leads us to all truth.

    I can think of no better words to conclude than those of Jesus when He speaks of the one and only “Rapture”, the Second Coming:
    “Be on guard. Be alert! You do not know when that time will come…keep
    watch…if He comes suddenly, do not let Him find you sleeping. What I say
    to you, I say to everyone: Watch!” (Mark 13:32-37).
    As AF can attest, Rapture does make for funny cartoons, tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    The "consistency" is all just church mythology. You've accepted it uncritically.
    Well I should be glad I have you here to tell me what I think.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  4. #93
    Also, I'd like to add that, irrespective of whether it is mythology, it is at least something.
    If the choice is between a group of people who teach what happened between 33 ad and 1517, and another group of people who pretends like those 15 centuries did not exist, we at least win by default.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    "Rapture", as it is used in "Left Behind" and most other contexts today, is not only false but heresy. It is not believed by Orthodox, Catholics, or mainline Protestants.

    http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010...an-heresy.html

    As AF can attest, Rapture does make for funny cartoons, tho.
    That's good, because it is a false doctrine.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Also, I'd like to add that, irrespective of whether it is mythology, it is at least something.
    If the choice is between a group of people who teach what happened between 33 ad and 1517, and another group of people who pretends like those 15 centuries did not exist, we at least win by default.
    Here's just another restatement of the EOC mythology. Uncritical people are drawn in to this because its something as you say. But it's just mythology at the end of the day.

    It doesn't matter at all that a theology or practice comes chronologically before something. That is not the standard for truth. The standard for truth is the doctrine of the apostles in the Scriptures. And on that principle, the EOC doesn't measure up. For all its claims to apostolicity, it doesn't teach what the apostles taught.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Uncritical people...
    Uncritical? You must never had read our opinions of Calvinism.
    ...



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Here's just another restatement of the EOC mythology. Uncritical people are drawn in to this because its something as you say. But it's just mythology at the end of the day.

    It doesn't matter at all that a theology or practice comes chronologically before something. That is not the standard for truth. The standard for truth is the doctrine of the apostles in the Scriptures. And on that principle, the EOC doesn't measure up. For all its claims to apostolicity, it doesn't teach what the apostles taught.
    Says the guy who's never actually bothered to read anything Orthodox for himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Here's just another restatement of the EOC mythology. Uncritical people are drawn in to this because its something as you say. But it's just mythology at the end of the day.

    It doesn't matter at all that a theology or practice comes chronologically before something. That is not the standard for truth. The standard for truth is the doctrine of the apostles in the Scriptures. And on that principle, the EOC doesn't measure up. For all its claims to apostolicity, it doesn't teach what the apostles taught.

    A "mythology" is not inherently false. It can be simply a set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a particular group or the history of an event, arising naturally or deliberately fostered. We can call literally all faith traditions "mythologies". I just don't bother to sit around antagonizing other faiths like you do because a) it's a waste of time and b) as the old monastic saying goes "keep your eyes on your own plate".
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    The standard for truth is the doctrine of the apostles in the Scriptures.
    Then why do you reject them when they don't suit your narrowed doctrine.

    There is much more than just Romans.. and some tangential in there.

    You reject the writings of a prophet though scripture confirms he was one.

    I really wonder how much of the bible you have not read,, because your teachers do not seem to be teaching all of it.

    You really need to read the whole bible.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Then why do you reject them when they don't suit your narrowed doctrine.

    There is much more than just Romans.. and some tangential in there.

    You reject the writings of a prophet though scripture confirms he was one.

    I really wonder how much of the bible you have not read,, because your teachers do not seem to be teaching all of it.

    You really need to read the whole bible.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.
    Including the Duetero canon, btw. God is absolutely revealed in that literature and it is a shame Protestants don't read it (Jesus and the apostles did). Reading the *whole* bible is very humbling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Including the Duetero canon, btw. God is absolutely revealed in that literature and it is a shame Protestants don't read it (Jesus and the apostles did). Reading the *whole* bible is very humbling.
    Are you humbled by the fact that the Jews of Jesus day didn't regard the duetero books as Scripture? Probably not. You probably didn't know that.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Then why do you reject them when they don't suit your narrowed doctrine.

    There is much more than just Romans.. and some tangential in there.

    You reject the writings of a prophet though scripture confirms he was one.

    I really wonder how much of the bible you have not read,, because your teachers do not seem to be teaching all of it.

    You really need to read the whole bible.
    What do I not accept?

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What do I not accept?
    I am afraid I don't have a full answer for that. But a great deal as far as I can tell.

    You have made clear your total rejection of Enoch,, the collected books or even mention of him. Repeatedly..

    Some removed the books from the bible,, others retained them.

    Jude called him a prophet.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I am afraid I don't have a full answer for that. But a great deal as far as I can tell.

    You have made clear your total rejection of Enoch,, the collected books or even mention of him. Repeatedly..

    Some removed the books from the bible,, others retained them.

    Jude called him a prophet.
    Enoch was a prophet. Enoch did not write the book of Enoch. Do you not know, or just not care, that it is a 1st century forgery?



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Do you not know, or just not care, that it is a 1st century forgery?
    You do not know that. You take the word of someone who said that..
    and yet the books were known to Jude who quoted from it.

    you say,,, does not mean much.

    Do you realize,, that the same influence that banned Enoch also wanted to remove the Revelation of John.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-16-2018 at 09:04 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Here's just another restatement of the EOC mythology. Uncritical people are drawn in to this because its something as you say. But it's just mythology at the end of the day.

    It doesn't matter at all that a theology or practice comes chronologically before something. That is not the standard for truth. The standard for truth is the doctrine of the apostles in the Scriptures. And on that principle, the EOC doesn't measure up. For all its claims to apostolicity, it doesn't teach what the apostles taught.
    You have no idea what the apostles taught because you either reject or are ignorant of the evidence of what they taught. That is the point you missed: if you ignore the years 33 through 1517, you lose by default.

    To use an analogy from one of the few Lutherans I still pay attention to, you are like a scientist who claims there is no such thing as barium, and to prove it, you're going to throw out all the samples of barium.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Are you humbled by the fact that the Jews of Jesus day didn't regard the duetero books as Scripture? Probably not. You probably didn't know that.
    Actually, they did. As did Jesus. In Matthew 6:33, Jesus is borrowing from Wisdom Of Solomon 8:7. This should not be a surprise, as Matthew's audience is Jewish-and would've known the literature and regarded it as scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    You have no idea what the apostles taught because you either reject or are ignorant of the evidence of what they taught. That is the point you missed: if you ignore the years 33 through 1517, you lose by default.

    To use an analogy from one of the few Lutherans I still pay attention to, you are like a scientist who claims there is no such thing as barium, and to prove it, you're going to throw out all the samples of barium.
    No. I know exactly what the apostles taught and what the early Christians believed. It's the gospels and the epistles.

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Actually, they did. As did Jesus. In Matthew 6:33, Jesus is borrowing from Wisdom Of Solomon 8:7. This should not be a surprise, as Matthew's audience is Jewish-and would've known the literature and regarded it as scripture.
    No they did not. The Jews did not regard them as canonical, and why don't you study a little bit more before making obviously untrue statements. For example, Josephus says:

    "We have but twenty-two [books] containing the history of all time, books that are justly believed in; and of these, five are the books of Moses, which comprise the law and earliest traditions from the creation of mankind down to his death. From the death of Moses to the reign of Artaxerxes, King of Persia, the successor of Xerxes, the prophets who succeeded Moses wrote the history of the events that occurred in their own time, in thirteen books. The remaining four documents comprise hymns to God and practical precepts to men (William Whiston, trans., Flavius Josephus against Apion, Vol. I, in Josephus, Complete Works, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1960, p. 8).

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No they did not. The Jews did not regard them as canonical, and why don't you study a little bit more before making obviously untrue statements. For example, Josephus says:
    Which of the learned men of the day recognized the Messiah that had been promised and prophesied in those books that they knew so well. And the truth was right in front of them.

    Josephus was ignorant. He may have been able to write,, but he was an ignorant man.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No they did not. The Jews did not regard them as canonical, and why don't you study a little bit more before making obviously untrue statements. For example, Josephus says:
    *ahem*
    Part I
    Quoted Authoritatively
    Epistle of Barnabas Ch 6 (70-90 ad)
    For the prophet speaks against Israel, themselves, saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us." (Wisdom 2:12)
    Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 71 (100-165 ad)

    "But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, `Behold, the virgin shall conceive, 'and say it ought to be read, `Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."

    Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jews, 120-121 (100-165 ad)
    I do not proceed to have a mere verbal controversy with you, as I have not attempted to establish proof about Christ from the passages of Scripture which are not admitted by you which I quoted from the words of Jeremiah the prophet, and Esdras, and David; but from those which are even now admitted by you, which had your teachers comprehended, be well assured they would have deleted them, as they did those about the death of Isaiah, whom you sawed asunder with a wooden saw. And this was a mysterious type of Christ being about to cut your nation in two…" And as they kept silence, I went on: "[The Scripture], speaking by David …”
    Ireneaus of Lyons Against Heresies book 1 ch 30.11 (120-180 ad)
    Moreover, they distribute the prophets in the following manner: Moses, and Joshua the son of Nun, and Amos, and Habakkuk, belonged to Ialdabaoth; Samuel, and Nathan, and Jonah, and Micah, to Iao; Elijah, Joel, and Zechariah to Sabaoth; Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Daniel, to Adohai; Tobias and Haggai to Eloi; Michaiah and Nahum to Oreus; Esdras and Zephaniah to Astanphaeus
    Ireneaus of Lyons Against Heresies book 4 ch 5.2, (120-180 ad)
    For our Lord and Master, in the answer which He gave to the Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection, and who do therefore dishonour God, and lower the credit of the law, did both indicate a resurrection, and reveal God, saying to them, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God." "For, touching the resurrection of the dead," He says, "have ye not read that which was spoken by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? And He added, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him." By these arguments He unquestionably made it clear, that He who spake to Moses out of the bush, and declared Himself to be the God of the fathers, He is the God of the living. For who is the God of the living unless He who is God, and above whom there is no other God? Whom also Daniel the prophet, when Cyrus king of the Persians said to him, "Why dost thou not worship Bel?" did proclaim, saying, "Because I do not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who established the heaven and the earth and has dominion over all flesh."Again did he say, "I will adore the Lord my God, because He is the living God." He, then, who was adored by the prophets as the living God, He is the God of the living; and His Word is He who also spake to Moses, who also put the Sadducees to silence, who also bestowed the gift of resurrection, thus revealing [both] truths to those who are blind, that is, the resurrection and God [in His true character].”
    Ireneaus of Lyons Against Heresies book 4 ch 38.1(120-180 ad)

    [After quoting the Prophet Isaiah twice} And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying…[quotes Baruch 4:26 et seq.].

    Ireneaus of Lyons Against Heresies book 5 ch 35.1 (120-180 ad)

    And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying…[quotes Baruch 4:36 et seq. ]."
    Clement of Alexandria The Instructor (Paedagogus) book 1 ch 8 (150-215 ad)
    At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says[quotes Sirach 21:6] and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man. For more suitably to Him, the prophet prays in these words: [quotes Psalms 103:14] that: is, Sympathize with us; for Thou knowest from personal experience of suffering the weakness of the flesh. In this respect, therefore, the Lord the Instructor is most good and unimpeachable, sympathizing as He does from the exceeding greatness of His love with the nature of each man. [quotes Wisdom 11:24] For assuredly He does not hate anything, and yet wish that which He hates to exist Nor does He wish anything not to exist, and yet become the cause of existence to that which He wishes not to exist. Nor does He wish anything not to exist which yet exists. If, then, the Word hates anything, He does not wish it to exist. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, [quotes Gen. 1:1].
    Clement of Alexandria The Instructor (Paedagogus) book 2 ch 3 (150-215 ad)
    Excellently, therefore, the Divine Scripture, addressing boasters and lovers of their own selves, says[quotes Baruch 3:16-19]
    Clement of Alexandria The Instructor (Paedagogus) book 2 ch 5 (150-215 ad)
    A fool raises his voice in laughter," says the Scripture; but a clever man smiles almost imperceptibly.” (Quoting Sirach 21:20)
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 2 ch23 (150-215 ad)

    Those, then, will not escape the curse of yoking an ass with an ox, who, judging certain things not to suit them, command others to do them, or the reverse. This Scripture has briefly showed, when it says …[quotes Tobit 4.15].
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book 4 ch 12 (150-215 ad)

    Now that which has future He already said beforehand was good, the phrase concealing the truth by hyperbaton. Therefore the Gnostic prays in thought during every hour, being by love allied to God. And first he will ask forgiveness of sins; and after, that he may sin no more; and further, the power of well-doing and of comprehending the whole creation and administration by the Lord, that, becoming pure in heart through the knowledge, which is by the Son of God, he may be initiated into the beatific vision face to face, having heard the Scripture which says, "Fasting with prayer is a good thing." (quoting Tobit 12.8)
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 1 ch 22 (150-215 ad)
    And they being the subjects of the Macedonians, selected from those of highest character among them seventy elders, versed in the Scriptures, and skilled in the Greek dialect, and sent them to him with the divine books. And each having severally translated each prophetic book, and all the translations being compared together, they agreed both in meaning and expression. For it was the counsel of God carried out for the benefit of Grecian ears. It was not alien to the inspiration of God, who gave the prophecy, also to produce the translation, and make it as it were Greek prophecy. Since the Scriptures having perished in the captivity of Nabuchodonosor, Esdras the Levite, the priest, in the time of Artaxerxes king of the Persians, having become inspired in the exercise of prophecy restored again the whole of the ancient Scriptures.
    Tertullian Scorpian’s Antedote ch 8 (160-240 ad)
    For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: [quotes Baruch 6:3-5]
    Tertullian Concerning the Soul ch 15 (160-240 ad)
    However, Dicaearchus has several authorities against him--and philosophers too--Plato, Strato, Epicurus, Democritus, Empedocles, Socrates, Aristotle; whilst in opposition to Andreas and Asclepiades (may be placed their brother) physicians Herophilus, Erasistratus, Diocles, Hippocrates, and Soranus himself; and better than all others, there are our Christian authorities. We are taught by God concerning both these questions--viz. that there is a ruling power in the soul, and that it is enshrined in one particular recess of the body. For, when one reads of God as being [quotes Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart… [quotes Matthew 1:4] when David prays… [quotes Psalms 51:12] and Paul declares… [quotes Romans 10:10] and John says, [quotes 1 John 3:20] when, lastly…[quotes Matthew 5:28]--then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul, with which the purpose of God may agree; in other words, a supreme principle of intelligence and vitality (for where there is intelligence, there must be vitality), and that it resides in that most precious part of our body to which God especially looks: so that you must not suppose, with Heraclitus, that this sovereign faculty of which we are treating is moved by some external force; nor with Moschion,
    Hyppolytus Against the Jews par 8-9 (170-236 ad)
    What sayest thou to this, O Jew? It is neither Matthew nor Paul that saith these things, but David, thine anointed, who awards and declares these terrible sentences on account of Christ. And like the great Job, addressing you who speak against the righteous and true, he says, "Thou didst barter the Christ like a slave, thou didst go to Him like a robber in the garden."

    I produce now the prophecy of Solomon, which speaketh of Christ, and announces clearly and perspicuously things concerning the Jews; and those which not only are befalling them at the present time, but those, too, which shall befall them in the future age, on account of the contumacy and audacity which they exhibited toward the Prince of Life; for the prophet says, "The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright," that is, about Christ and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraideth us with our offending the law, and professeth to have knowledge of God; and he calleth himself the Child of God." And then he says, "He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed." And again, listen to this, O Jew! None of the righteous or prophets called himself the Son of God. And therefore, as in the person of the Jews, solomon speaks again of this righteous one, who is Christ, thus: "He was made to reprove our thoughts, and he maketh his boast that God is his Father. Let us see, then, if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him; for if the just man be the Son of God, He will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us condemn him with a shameful death, for by his own saying he shall be respected."…[quotes Wisdom 2:12-20]."

    Hyppolytus Against Noetus par 2 (170-236 ad)
    But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: "This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men." [quotes Baruch 3:36-38]
    Caius Fragment 3 Muratorianus par 4 [180-240 AD]
    The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John--or bearing the name of John--are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour. We receive also the Apocalypse of John and that of Peter, though some amongst us will not have this latter read in the Church.
    Origen de Principiis book 2 ch 1.5 (185- 254ad)
    But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, "I ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist
    Cyprian of CarthageLetter 61.1 (200-270 ad)

    Concerning which matters, since you have desired our advice, know that we do not depart from the traditions of the Gospel and of the apostles, but with constancy and firmness take counsel for our brethren and sisters, and maintain the discipline of the Church by all the ways of usefulness and safety, since the Lord speaks, saying…[Jer. 3:15] And again it is written; [Wisdom 3:11]; and in the Psalms also the Holy Spirit admonishes and instructs us, saying…[quotes Psalms 2:12 [LXX]]."

    Cyprian of CarthageLetter 80.6(200-270 ad)

    And again, where the sacred Scripture speaks of the tortures which consecrate God's martyrs, and sanctify them in the very trial of suffering:… [quotes Wisdom 3:4-8].”
    Cyprian of Carthage Letter, 54.3 (200-270 ad)
    “…[S]ince Holy Scripture meets and warns us, saying[quotes Hab. 2:5].And again[quotes 1 Maccabees 2:62-63] And again: [quotes Psalm 38:35, 36].
    Cyprian of CarthageOn The Dress of Virgins, 1(200-270 ad)

    The Holy Spirit says in the Psalms…[quotes Psalm 2:12]. And again: [quotes Psalm 49:16-17]. And again we read: [quotes Wisdom 3:11] And from Solomon we have received the mandates of wisdom, warning us: [quotes Proverbs 3:11-12]."
    Cyprian of Carthage On the Dress of Virgins, 10 (200-270 ad)
    since Holy Scripture says[quotes Wisdom 5:8].
    Cyprian of Carthage On Mortality, 9(200-270 ad)

    Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying[quotes Sirach 2:1-5].”
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 8 par 2 (200-270 ad)
    The Holy Spirit speaks in the sacred Scriptures, and says, "By almsgiving and faith sins are purged." (Tobit 12:9)
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 96 (200-270 ad)
    In Solomon, in Ecclesiasticus: "Be not hasty in thy tongue, and in thy deeds useless and remiss." And Paul, in the first to the Corinthians: "The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." Also to the Romans: "Not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (used 10 times in this treatise)
    Eusebius of Caesarea Church History book 4 ch 27 (295-340ad)
    I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song off Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." Such are the words of Melito
    Eusebius of Caesarea Church History book 5 (295-340ad)
    "Well did the Scripture speak, saying, that God is one, who has created and completed all things,'" etc. And he uses almost the precise words of the Wisdom of Solomon, saying: vision of God produces immortality, but immortality renders us near to God."
    Athanasius Against the Heathen Part 1 ch 11.1 (296-373 ad)
    But of these and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us beforehand long ago, when it said , [quotes Wisdom 11:12].”
    Athanasius Against the Heathen Part 3 ch 44.3 (296-373 ad)
    For as by His own providence bodies grow and the rational soul moves, and possesses life and thought, and this requires little proof, for we see what takes place,-so again the same Word of God with one simple nod by His own power moves and holds together both the visible universe and the invisible powers, allotting to each its proper function, so that the divine powers move in a diviner way, while visible things move as they are seen to do. But Himself being over all, both Governor and King and organising power, He does all for the glory and knowledge of His own Father, so that almost by the very works that He brings to pass He teaches us and says, [quotes Wisdom 8:5].”
    Athanasius Against the Heathen par 11.1 (296-373 ad)
    But of these and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us beforehand long ago, when it said, "The devising of idols was the beginning of fornication, and the invention of them, the corruption of life. For neither were they from the beginning, neither shall they be for ever. (Wis 14:13)
    Athanasius Against the Heathen par 9.4 (296-373 ad)
    According as the wisdom of God testifies beforehand when it says, "The devising of idols was the beginning of fornication." (Wis 14:12)
    Athanasius Against the Heathen par 17.3 (296-373 ad)
    For since they were endeavouring to invest with what Scripture calls the incommunicable name and honour of God them that are no gods but mortal men, and since this venture of theirs was great and impious, for this reason even against their will they were forced by truth to set forth the passions of these persons, so that their passions recorded in the writings concerning them might be in evidence for all posterity as a proof that they were no gods. (Wis 14:20-21)
    Athanasius Discourse 2 Against the Arians ch19.45 (296-373 ad)
    And this difference divine Scripture recognises, saying concerning the creatures, 'The earth is full of Thy creation,' and 'the creation itself groaneth together and travaileth together(3);' and in the Apocalypse it says, 'And the third part of the creatures in the sea died which had life;' as also Paul says, 'Every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving(4);' and in the book of Wisdom it is written, 'Having ordained man through Thy wisdom, that he should have dominion over the creatures which Thou hast made(5).' And these, being creatures, are also said to be created, as we may further hear from the Lord, who says, 'He who created them, made them male and female(6);' and from Moses in the Song, who writes, 'Ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from the one side of heaven unto the other(7).' And Paul in Colossians, 'Who is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature, for in Him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created through Him, and for Him, and He is before all

    Methodius Banquet of Ten Virgins Discourse 1 par 3 (300 ad)
    And in the Book of Wisdom, a book full of all virtue, the Holy Spirit, now openly drawing His hearers to continence and chastity, sings on this wise, memorial thereof is immortal; because it is known with God and with men.
    Hilary of Poitiers On the Trinity, Book 1 par 7 (300-367 ad)

    Then, while the devout soul was baffled and astray through its own feebleness, it caught from the prophet's voice this scale of comparison for God, admirably expressed [quotes Wisdom 13:5].”
    Hilary of Poitiers On the Trinity, Book 4 par 16 (300-367 ad)

    . For all things, as the Prophet says, were made out of nothing [2 Macc. 7:28] it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent.
    Hilary of Poitiers On the Trinity, 4.42 (300-367 ad)

    "As you have listened already to Moses and Isaiah, so listen now to Jeremiah inculcating the same truth as they [quotes Baruch 3:36-38]
    Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 1.3, (circa 311 ad)
    Lest, however, we should seem prolix in collecting the testimonies of the prophets, let us again point out how chastity succeeded to marriage with one wife, taking away by degrees the lusts of the flesh, until it removed entirely the inclination for sexual intercourse engendered by habit. For presently one is introduced earnestly deprecating, from henceforth, this seduction, saying, [quotes Sirach 23:1,4,6] And in the Book of Wisdom, a book full of all virtue, the Holy Spirit, now openly drawing His hearers to continence and chastity, sings on this wise[quotes Wisdom 4:1, 2].
    Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins Discourse 2.3 (circa 311 ad)
    And that you may not take refuge behind a safe wall, bringing forward the Scripture which says, [quotes Wisdom 3:16].”

    St Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lecture 4 par 33 (315-386 ad)
    Read the Divine Scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament, these that have been translated by the Seventy-two Interpreters
    Cyril of Jerusalem Catatechical Lectures 11 ch 15 (315-386 ad)
    And wouldest thou know that He who was begotten of the Father, and afterwards became man, is God? Hear the Prophet saying, [quotes Baruch 3:36-38].”
    Epiphanius Adversus Haereses, Haeres. 76.5 (320-403 ad)
    For if thou were begotten of the Holy Ghost, and taught by the Apostles and Prophets, this should you do: Examine all the sacred codices from Genesis to the times of Esther, which are twenty-seven books of the Old Testament, and are enumerated as twenty-two; then the four Holy Gospel… the Books of Wisdom, that of Solomon, and of the Son of Sirach, and in fine all the books of Scripture.”

    Ambrose of Milan Three books on the duty of the clergy book 1 ch 2.5 (340-397 ad)
    Justly, then, is he wise who has received of the Lord to know when he ought to speak. Wherefore the Scripture says well: [quotes Sirach 20:7].”
    Ambrose of Milan Three Books on the Duty of the Clergy, Book 2, chapter 13, section 65 (340-397 ad)
    . We have spoken of its beauty, and proved it by the witness of Scripture. It remains to show on the authority of Scripture that there can be no fellowship between it and vice, but that it has an inseparable union with the rest of the virtues. "It has a spirit sagacious, undefiled, sure, holy, loving what is good, quick, that never forbids a kindness, kind, steadfast, free from care, having all power, overseeing all things." And again: "She teacheth temperance and justice and virtue." [cf Wisdom 7:7-30]
    Tyranus Rufinus Commentary on the symbol of the apostles, 36-38 (340-410 ad)

    [36] This then is the Holy Ghost, who in the Old Testament inspired the Law and the Prophets, in the New the Gospels and the Epistles. Whence also the Apostle says, " All Scripture given by inspiration of God is profitable for instruction." And therefore it seems proper in this place to enumerate, as we have learnt from the tradition of the Fathers, the books of the New and of the Old Testament, which, according to the tradition of our forefathers, are believed to have been inspired by the Holy Ghost, and have been handed down to the Churches of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #112
    Part II
    37. Of the Old Testament, therefore, first of all there have been handed down five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Then Jesus Nave (Joshua the son of Nun), The Book of Judges together with Ruth; then four books of Kings (Reigns), which the Hebrews reckon two; the Book of Omissions, which is entitled the Book of Days (Chronicles), and two books of Ezra (Ezra and Nehemiah), which the Hebrews reckon one, and Esther; of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel; moreover of the twelve (minor) Prophets, one book; Job also and the Psalms of David, each one book. Solomon gave three books to the Churches, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles. These comprise the books of the Old Testament. Of the New there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the Acts of the Apostles, written by Luke; fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, two of the Apostle Pete, one of James, brother of the Lord and Apostle, one of Jude, three of John, the Revelation of John. These are the books which the Fathers have comprised within the Canon, and from which they would have us deduce the proofs of our faith. 38. But it should be known that there are also other books which our fathers call not "Canonical" but "Ecclesiastical:" that is to say, Wisdom, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and another Wisdom, called the Wisdom of the Son of Syrach, which last-mentioned the Latins called by the general title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book, but the character of the writing. To the same class belong the Book of Tobit, and the Book of Judith, and the Books of the Maccabees. In the New Testament the little book which is called the Book of the Pastor of Hermas, [and that] which is called The Two Ways, or the Judgment of Peter; all of which they would have read in the Churches, but not appealed to for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they have named "Apocrypha." These they would not have read in the Churches. These are the traditions which the Fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God their draughts must be taken.

    John Chrysostom Homily 50 on Matthew’s Gospel ch 5 (347-407 ad)
    but let us read all the laws, those in the New and those in the Old Testament, that are set down about almsgiving, and let us be very earnest about this matter. For this cleanses from sin. For "give alms, and all things will be clean unto you." (Tobit)
    Sulpitius Severus Sacred History ch 14 (363-420 ad)
    To this series of events it will be right that I should append an account of the doings of Judith; for she is related to have lived after the captivity, but the sacred history has not revealed who was king of the Persians in her day. It, however, calls the king under whom her exploits were performed by the name of Nabuchodonosor, and that was certainly not the one who took Jerusalem. But I do not find that any one of that name reigned over the Persians after the captivity, unless it be that, on account of the[1] wrath and like endeavors which he manifested, any king acting so was styled Nabuchodonosor by the Jews…….. But this ought not to be felt at all remarkable by any one, that mere worldly writers have not touched on any of those points which are recorded in the sacred writings. The spirit of God thus took care that the history should be strictly confined within its own mysteries, unpolluted by any corrupt mouth, or that which mingled truth with fiction. That history being, in fact, separated from the affairs of the, world, and of a kind to be expressed only in sacred words, clearly ought not to have been mixed up with other histories, as being on a footing of equality with them.
    Augustine of Hippo Enchiridion of Christian Doctrine Book 2 par 12-13(354-430 ad)

    But let us now go back to consider the third step here mentioned, for it is about it that I have set myself to speak and reason as the Lord shall grant me wisdom. The most skillful interpreter of the sacred writings, then, will be he who in the first place has read them all and retained them in his knowledge, if not yet with full understanding, still with such knowledge as reading gives,-those of them, at least, that arc called canonical. For he will read the others with greater safety when built up in the belief of the truth, so that they will not take first possession of a weak mind, nor, cheating it with dangerous falsehoods and delusions, fill it with prejudices adverse to a sound understanding. Now, in regard to the canonical Scriptures, he must follow the judgment of the greater number of catholic churches; and among these, of course, a high place must be given to such as have been thought worthy to be the seat of an apostle and to receive epistles. Accordingly, among the canonical Scriptures he will judge according to the following standard: to prefer those that are received by all the catholic churches to those which some do not receive. Among those, again, which are not received by all, he will prefer such as have the sanction of the greater number and those of greater authority, to such as are held by the smaller number and those of less authority. If, however, he shall find that some books are held by the greater number of churches, and others by the churches of greater authority (though this is not a very likely thing to happen), I think that in such a case the authority on the two sides is to be looked upon as equal.


    13. Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books:-Five books of Moses, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; one book of Joshua the son of Nun; one of Judges; one short book called Ruth, which seems rather to belong to the beginning of Kings; next, four books of Kings, and two of Chronicles -these last not following one another, but running parallel, so to speak, and going over the same ground. The books now mentioned are history, which contains a connected narrative of the times, and follows the order of the events. There are other books which seem to follow no regular order, and are connected neither with the order of the preceding books nor with one another, such as Job, and Tobias, and Esther, and Judith, and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Ezra, which last look more like a sequel to the continuous regular history which terminates with the books of Kings and Chronicles. Next are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David; and three books of Solomon, viz., Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. For two books, one called Wisdom and the other Ecclesiasticus, are ascribed to Solomon from a certain resemblance of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. The remainder are the books which are strictly called the Prophets: twelve separate books of the prophets which are connected with one another, and having never been disjoined, are reckoned as one book; the names of these prophets are as follows:-Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; then there are the four greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books. That of the New Testament, again, is contained within the following:-Four books of the Gospel, according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke, according to John; fourteen epistles of the Apostle Paul-one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews: two of Peter; three of John; one of Jude; and one of James; one book of the Acts of the Apostles; and one of the Revelation of John.

    Augustine of Hippo City of God 8, 1(354-430 ad)

    It is, we say, with philosophers we have to confer with respect to this theology,-men whose very name, if rendered into Latin, signifies those who profess the love of wisdom. Now, if wisdom is God, who made all things, as is attested by the divine authority and truth, then the philosopher is a lover of God. “ [Wisdom 7:24-27].
    Augustine Reply to Faustus the Manichean Book 22 par 35 (354-430 ad)
    We learn from Scripture that, among the ancients, it was customary to call cousins brothers and sisters. Thus Tobias says in his prayer to God, before having intercourse with his wife, 'And now, O Lord, Thou knowest that not in wantonness I take to wife my sister;" though she was not sprung immediately from the same father or the same mother, but only belonged to the same family. And Lot is called the brother of Abraham, though Abraham was his uncle. And, by the same use of the word, those called in the Gospel the Lord's brothers are certainly not children of the Virgin Mary, but all the blood relations of the Lord.
    Augustine on Predestination of the Saints Book 1 ch 27 (354-430 ad)
    And since these things are so, the judgment of the book of Wisdom ought not to be repudiated, since for so long a course of years that book has deserved to be read in the Church of Christ from the station of the readers of the Church of Christ, and to be heard by all Christians, from bishops downwards, even to the lowest lay believers, penitents, and catechumens, with the veneration paid to divine authority
    Augustine of Hippo City of God 11. 30(354-430 ad)

    And, therefore, we must not despise the science of numbers, which, in many passages of holy Scripture, is found to be of eminent service to the careful interpreter. Neither has it been without reason numbered among God's praises, [quotes Wisdom 11:20.] “

    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 17 ch 20 (354-430 ad)
    But it has been customary to ascribe to Solomon other two, of which one is called Wisdom, the other Ecclesiasticus, on account of some resemblance of style -- but the more learned have no doubt that they are not his; yet of old the Church, especially the Western, received them into authority -- in the one of which, called the Wisdom of Solomon, the passion of Christ is most openly prophesied
    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 18 ch 36 (354-430 ad)
    From this time, when the temple was rebuilt, down to the time of Aristobulus, the Jews had not kings but princes; and the reckoning of their dates is found, not in the Holy Scriptures which are called canonical, but in others, among which are also the books of the Maccabees. These are held as canonical, not by the Jews, but by the Church, on account of the extreme and wonderful sufferings of certain martyrs, who, before Christ had come in the flesh, contended for the law of God even unto death, and endured most grievous and horrible evils.
    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 22 ch 29 (354-430 ad)
    But as we do not know what degree of perfection the spiritual body shall attain -- for here we speak of a matter of which we have no experience, and upon which the authority of Scripture does not definitely pronounce -- it is necessary that the words of the Book of Wisdom be illustrated in us: "The thoughts of mortal men are timid, and our fore-castings uncertain."
    Augustine of Hippo The Care for the Dead par 3 (354-430 ad)
    In the books of the Maccabees [2 Maccabees 12:43] we read of sacrifice offered for the dead.2 Howbeit even if it were no where at all read in the Old Scriptures, not small is the authority, which in this usage is clear, of the whole Church, namely, that in the prayers of the priest which are offered to the Lord God at His altar, the Commendation of the dead hath also its place.
    Augustine of Hippo Christian Doctrine Book 2 ch 8.13 (354-430 ad)
    Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books: Numbers, Deuteronomy; following one another, but running parallel, so to speak, and going over the same ground. The books just mentioned are history, which contains a connected narrative of the times, and follows the order of the events. There are other books which seem to follow no regular order, and are connected neither with the order of the preceding books nor with one another, such as look more like a sequel to the continuous regular history which terminates with the books of Kings and Chronicles. of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. the Prophets: twelve separate books of the prophets which are connected with one another, and having never been disjoined, are reckoned as one book; the names of these prophets are as follows: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books.
    John Cassian The Institutes, 4:37 (360-435 ad)
    "Wherefore, as Scripture says, 'when you go forth to serve the Lord stand in the fear of the Lord, and prepare your mind'” [Sirach 2:1]
    Vincent of Lerins Commonitory,21:51 (390-450 ad)
    "[T]he divine Oracles cry aloud, 'Remove not the landmarks, which thy fathers have set,'[Prov 22:28] and 'Go not to law with a Judge,'[Sirach 8:14] and 'Whoso breaketh through a fence a serpent shall bite him,'[Eccles 10:8]"
    Apostolic Canons ch 47 par 85 (400 ad)
    Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by you, both of the clergy and laity. Of the Old Covenant: the five books of Moses--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun, one of the Judges, one of Ruth, four of the Kings, two of the Chronicles, two of Ezra, one of Esther, one of Judith, three of the Maccabees, one of Job, one hundred and fifty psalms; three books of Solomon--Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; sixteen prophets. And besides these, take care that your young persons learn the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach. But our sacred books, that is, those of the New Covenant, are these: the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you the bishops by me Clement, in eight books; which it is not fit to publish before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us the Apostles. (includes Judith, Sirach, maccabees, Clement and Constitutions)
    Gregory the Great Letters Book 7 letter 28 (540-604 ad)
    And yet I rejoice with your benignity that you carefully attend to and observe what the Truth says; Give alms, and behold, all things are clean unto you (Luke xi 41); and this which is written, Even as water quencheth fire, so alms quench sin (Ecclus. iii. 33). Paul the apostle also says, Let your abundance supply their want, that their abundance also may be a supply to your want (2 Cor. viii. 14). Tobias admonishes his son, saying, If thou hast much, give abundantly; but if thou hast little, of that little impart willingly (Tob. iv. 9). You therefore observe all these precepts: but we beg you to pray for us, lest we should dispense the fruits of your labours indiscreetly, and not as need requires; lest from that whereby you diminish sins we should heap up sins. (quotes several scriptures including Tobit)
    John of Damascus Exposition of the Faith book 4 ch 17 (676-749 ad)
    Observe, further, that there are two and twenty books of the Old Testament, one for each letter of the Hebrew tongue. For there are twenty-two letters of which five are double, and so they come to be twenty-seven. For the letters Caph, Mere, Nun, Pe, Sade are double. And thus the number of the books in this way is twenty-two, but is found to be twenty-seven because of the double character of five. For Ruth is joined on to Judges, and the Hebrews count them one book: the first and second books of Kings are counted one: and so are the third and fourth books of Kings: and also the first and second of Paraleipomena: and the first and second of Esdra. In this way, then, the books are collected together in four Pentateuchs and two others remain over, to form thus the canonical books. Five of them are of the Law, viz. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. This which is the code of the Law, constitutes the first Pentateuch. Then comes another Pentateuch, the so-called Grapheia, or as they are called by some, the Hagiographa, which are the following: Jesus the Son of Nave, Judges along with Ruth, first and second Kings, which are one book, third and fourth Kings, which are one book, and the two books of the Paraleipomena which are one book. This is the second Pentateuch. The third Pentateuch is the books in verse, viz. Job, Psalms, Proverbs of Solomon, Ecclesiastes of Solomon and the Song of Songs of Solomon. The fourth Pentateuch is the Prophetical books, viz the twelve prophets constituting one book, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel. Then come the two books of Esdra made into one, and Esther. There are also the Panaretus, that is the Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Jesus, which was published in Hebrew by the father of Sirach, and afterwards translated into Greek by his grandson, Jesus, the Son of Sirach. These are virtuous and noble, but are not counted nor were they placed in the ark. (The number 22 included Sirach and Wisdom. Not included in the ark because ark was gone before written. Says Sirach originally in Hebrew)

    Septuagint Translation
    Justin Martyr Hortatory Address to the Greeks ch 8 (100-165 ad)
    And when he ascertained that the seventy men had not only given the same meaning, but had employed the same words, and had failed in agreement with one another not even to the extent of one word; but had written the same things, and concerning the same things, he was struck with amazement, and believed that the translation had been written by divine power, and perceived that the men were worthy of all honour, as beloved of God
    Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 71 (100-165 ad)

    "But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, `Behold, the virgin shall conceive, 'and say it ought to be read, `Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."
    Ireneaus Of Lyons Against Heresies Book 3 ch 21.3 (120-180 ad)
    for our Lord was bern about the forty-first year of the reign of Augustus; but Ptolemy was much earlier, under whom the Scriptures were interpreted; -- [since these things are so, I say,] truly these men are proved to be impudent and presumptuous, who would now show a desire to make different translations, when we refute them out of these Scriptures, and shut them up to a belief in the advent of the Son of God. But our faith is stedfast, unfeigned, and the only true one, having clear proof from these Scriptures, which were interpreted in the way I have related; and the preaching of the Church is without interpolation. For the apostles, since they are of more ancient date than all these [heretics], agree with this aforesaid translation; and the translation harmonizes with the tradition of the apostles. For Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Paul, and the rest successively, as well as their followers, did set forth all prophetical
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 1 ch 22 (150-215 ad)
    And they being the subjects of the Macedonians, selected from those of highest character among them seventy elders, versed in the Scriptures, and skilled in the Greek dialect, and sent them to him with the divine books. And each having severally translated each prophetic book, and all the translations being compared together, they agreed both in meaning and expression. For it was the counsel of God carried out for the benefit of Grecian ears. It was not alien to the inspiration of God, who gave the prophecy, also to produce the translation, and make it as it were Greek prophecy. Since the Scriptures having perished in the captivity of Nabuchodonosor, Esdras the Levite, the priest, in the time of Artaxerxes king of the Persians, having become inspired in the exercise of prophecy restored again the whole of the ancient Scriptures.
    Tertullian The Apology ch 18 (160-240 ad)
    But that the understanding of their books might not be wanting, this also the Jews supplied to Ptolemy; for they gave him seventy-two interpreters-men whom the philosopher Menedemus, the well-known asserter of a Providence, regarded with respect as sharing in his views. The same account is given by Aristaeus. So the king left these works unlocked to all, in the Greek language. To this day, at the temple of Serapis, the libraries of Ptolemy are to be seen, with the identical Hebrew originals in them.
    Hippolytus Extant Works and Fragments Preface (170-236 ad)
    Armius, author of the book of Times, has said: In the nineteenth year of the reign of King Ptolemy, He ordered the elders of the children of Israel to be assembled, in order that they might put into his hands a copy of the law, and that they might each be at hand to explain its meaning. [+] The elders accordingly came, bringing with them the most excellent law. Then be commanded that every one of them should interpret the book of the law to him. [+] But he dissented from the interpretation which the elders had given. And he ordered the elders to be thrust into prison and chains. And seizing the book of the law, he threw it into a deep ditch, and cast fire and hot ashes upon it for seven days. Then afterwards he ordered them to throw the filth of the city into that ditch in which was the book of the law. And the ditch was filled to the very top. [+] The law remained seventy years under the filth in that ditch, yet did not perish, nor was there even a single leaf of it spoilt. [+] In the twenty-first year of the reign of King Apianutus they took the book of the law out of the ditch, and not one leaf thereof was spoilt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
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  27. #113
    Part III
    Methodius Discourse on the Resurrection par 11 (300 ad)
    "For," says the Book of Wisdom, "God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of His own eternity."
    Methodius Extracts From the Work on Things Created par 9 (300 ad)
    But if there are thirteen days in the sight of God from the creation of the world, how can Wisdom say, in the Book of the Son of Sirach: "Who can number the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of eternity?"
    Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lecture 4.33 (315-386 ad)
    Read the Divine Scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament, these that have been translated by the Seventy-two Interpreters
    Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lecture 4.34 (315-386 ad)
    And when they had fulfilled the task in seventy-two days, he brought together all their translations, which they had made in different chambers without sending them one to another, and found that they agreed not only in the sense but even in words. For the process was no word-craft, nor contrivance of human devices: but the translation of the Divine Scriptures, spoken by the Holy Ghost, was of the Holy Ghost accomplished.
    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 18 ch 43 (354-430 ad)
    the Church has received this Septuagint translation just as if it were the only one; and it has been used by the Greek Christian people, most of whom are not aware that there is any other. From this translation there has also been made a translation in the Latin tongue, which the Latin churches use. Our times, however, have enjoyed the advantage of the presbyter Jerome, a man most learned, and skilled in all three languages, who translated these same Scriptures into the Latin speech, not from the Greek, but from the Hebrew. . . . whatever is in the Septuagint and not in the Hebrew copies, the same Spirit chose rather to say through the latter, thus showing that both were prophets.
    Augustine On Christian Doctrine Book 3 ch 7 par 15 (354-430 ad)
    I shall not, however, follow the Septuagint translators, who, being themselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their translation, seem to have altered some passages with the view of directing the reader's attention more particularly to the investigation of the spiritual sense; (and hence some passages are more obscure, because more figurative, in their translation but I shall follow the translation made from the Hebrew into Latin by the presbyter Jerome, a man thoroughly acquainted with both tongues
    Augustine On Christian Doctrine Book 2 ch 15 par 22 (354-430 ad)
    And to correct the Latin we must use the Greek versions, among which the authority of the Septuagint is pre-eminent as far as the Old Testament is concerned; for it is reported through all the more learned churches that the seventy translators enjoyed so much of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in their work of translation, that among that number of men there was but one voice. And if, as is reported, and as many not unworthy of confidence assert, they were separated during the work of translation, each man being in a cell by himself, and yet nothing was found in the manuscript of any one of them that was not found in the same words and in the same order of words in all the rest, who dares put anything in comparison with an authority like this, not to speak of preferring anything to it?
    Augustine on the Harmony of the Gospels ch 66 par 128 (354-430 ad)
    I am of opinion that no more probable account of the matter will suggest itself, than the supposition that the Seventy composed their version under the influence of the very Spirit by whose inspiration the things which they were engaged in translating had been originally spoken.

    Church Councils

    Council of Rome Decree of Pope Damasus (382 ad)
    "Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books"
    Council of Hippo Canon 36 (393 ad )
    "[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun,Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ."
    Council of Carthage III Canon 47 (397 ad)
    "[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ."
    Council of Carthage IV Canon 24 (419 ad)
    That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture
    Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.
    But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
    Genesis.
    Exodus.
    Leviticus.
    Numbers.
    Deuteronomy.
    Joshua the Son of Nun.
    The Judges.
    Ruth.
    The Kings, iv. books.
    The Chronicles, ij. books.
    Job.
    The Psalter.
    The Five books of Solomon.
    The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
    Isaiah.
    Jeremiah.
    Ezechiel.
    Daniel.
    Tobit.
    Judith.
    Esther.
    Ezra, ij. books.
    Macchabees, ij. books.
    o The New Testament.
    The Gospels, iv. books.§
    The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.§
    The Epistles of Paul, xiv.§
    The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.§
    The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.§
    The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.§
    The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.§
    The Revelation of John, j. book.§
    Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church. (Boniface was the pope at the time.)
    Council of Florence CantateDominopar 47 (February 4, 1442)
    The church confesses only one identical God as author of the Old and New Testament, namely of the laws and the prophets, not only of the Gospels, because the saints of one or the other Testament have spoken under the inspiration and the same Holy Spirit. Of these are accepted and venerated the books comprised uner the following titles: the five books of Moses, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy; the books of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Ester, Job, the Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, the 12 minor prophets, namely: Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; the two books of the Maccabees, the four books of the Gospel of Matthew, Marc, Luke and John; the 14 letters of St. Paul; to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philipians, two to the Thessalonians, Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, Philomene, to the Hebrews, the two letters of Peter, the 3 of John, one of James and one of Jude, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Apocalypse of John.

    Council of Trent 4th session DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES (April 8 1546)
    The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,-- keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith
    as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the
    apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.

    Books Mentioned or Quoted From

    Clement of Rome first letter to the Corinthians ch 27 (27-97 ad)
    "By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]"
    Clement of Rome first letter to the Corinthians ch 55 (27-97 ad)
    The blessed Judith, when her city was besieged, asked of the elders permission to go forth into the camp of the strangers; and, exposing herself to danger, she went out for the love which she bare to her country and people then besieged; and the Lord delivered Holofernes into the hands of a woman
    Clement of Rome Second epistle ch 16 (27-97 ad)
    Good, then, is alms as repentance from sin; better is fasting than prayer, and alms than both; ‘charity covereth a multitude of sins,’ and prayer out of a good conscience delivereth from death. Blessed is every one that shall be found complete in these; for alms lightens the burden of sin.” (quoting Tobit 4:10)
    Polycarp Letter to the Phillipians ch 10 (69-155 ad)
    "Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood [1 Pet. 2:17].
    . . . When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’
    [Tob. 4:10], 12:9]. Be all of you subject to one another [1 Pet. 5:5], having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles [1 Pet. 2:12], and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed [Is. 52:5]!"
    Ireneaus of Lyons Against Heresies book 4 ch 26.3 (120-180 ad)

    "Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]"; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).

    Athenagoras Plea for Christians ch 9 Testimonies of the Prophets (150-200 ad)
    This is our God, and there shall no other be accounted of in comparison of him (quoted exactly from Baruch 3:36)
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 5 ch 8 (150-215 ad)
    And by Aristobulus, who lived in the time of Ptolemy Philadelphus, who is mentioned by the composer of the epitome of the books of the Maccabees, there were abundant books to show that the Peripatetic philosophy was derived from the law of Moses and from the other prophets. Let such be the case.
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 1 ch 21 (150-215 ad)
    At this period, too, occurred the sign of Jona; and Tobias, through the assistance of the angel Raphael, married Sarah, the demon having killed her seven first suitors; and after the marriage of Tobias, his father Tobit recovered his sight.
    Clement of Alexandria The instructor book 1 ch 6 (150-215 ad)
    Of this also the book of Wisdom plainly says, "For mercy and wrath are with Him, for He alone is Lord of both," Lord of propitiations, and pouring forth wrath according to the abundance of His mercy. "So also is His reproof." For the aim of mercy and of reproof is the salvation of those who are reproved.
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 4 ch 19 (150-215 ad)
    But Judith too, who became perfect among women, in the siege of the city, at the entreaty of the elders went forth into the strangers' camp, despising all danger for her country's sake, giving herself into the enemy's hand in faith in God; and straightway she obtained the reward of her faith…….I pass over in silence Susanna and the sister of Moses, since the latter was the prophet's associate in commanding the host, being superior to all the women among the Hebrews who were in repute for their wisdom; and the former in her surpassing modesty, going even to death condemned by licentious admirers, remained the unwavering martyr of chastity
    Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book 11 ch 7 (150-215 ad)

    By ignorance he means, in my opinion, death. "And he that is near the Lord is full of stripes."

    (Quoting Judith 8.27)
    Tertullian In Answer to the Jews ch 4 (160-240 ad)
    [T]hat Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days…Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day… Nor is it doubtful that they "wrought servile work," when, in obedience to God's precept, they drave the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching "the day of the sabbaths."

    Tertullian Against the Valentinians ch 2 (160-240 ad)
    Besides, the face of the Lord is patiently waited for by those who "seek Him in simplicity of heart," as says the very Wisdom--not of Valentinus, but--of Solomon.
    Tertullian Against Idolatry ch 18(160-240 ad)

    For if that were the case, of course men of such holiness and constancy would instantly have refused the defiled dresses; and it would instantly have appeared that Daniel had been no zealous slave to idols, nor worshipped Bel, nor the dragon, which long after did appear.
    Tertullian Prescription Against the Heretics ch 7(160-240 ad)

    "Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.'[Wisdom 1:1]"
    Hyppolytus Commentary on Daniel ch 2.32, (170-236 ad)
    "But they said…[quotes 1 Macc. 2:33]. The things, therefore, which were spoken to the blessed Daniel are fulfilled: 'And my servants shall be afflicted, and shall fall by famine, and by sword, and by captivity.'[Dan. 11:33] Daniel, however, adds: 'And they shall be holpen with a little help.' For at that time Matthias arose, and Judas Maccabaeus, and helped them, and delivered them from the hand of the Greeks."
    Hyppolytus Commentary on Daniel ch 6.55 (170-236 ad)
    ‘“For even now the angel of God.’ He shows also, that when Susannah prayed to God, and was heard, the angel was sent then to help her, just as was the case in the instance of Tobias [See Tobit 3:17] and Sara. For when they prayed, the supplication of both of them was heard in the same day and the same hour, and the angel Raphael was sent to heal them both."[/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  28. #114
    Part IV
    Hippolytus Extant Works and Fragments On Daniel ch 2.11 (170-236 ad)
    Since, then, the angel Gabriel also recounted these things to the prophet, as they have been understood by us, as they have also taken place, and as they have been all clearly described in the books of the
    Maccabees,
    Hippolytus on the Antichrist par 49 (170-236 ad)
    And if one desires to inquire into that more accurately, he will find it recorded in the books of the
    Maccabees.
    Origen Commentary on the Gospel of John book 1 ch 18 (185-254 ad)
    This, however, is the view of those who hold matter itself to be uncreated, a view which we believers cannot share, since we believe God to have made the things that are out of the things which are not, as the mother of the seven martyrs in the
    Maccabees teaches, and as the angel of repentance in the Shepherd inculcated.
    Origen Against Celsus book 5 ch 14 (185-254)
    " Then, knowing that there was a secret and mystical meaning in the passage, as was becoming in one who was leaving, in his Epistles, to those who were to come after him words full of significance, he subjoins the following, "Behold, I show you a mystery;" which is his usual style in introducing matters of a profounder and more mystical nature, and such as are fittingly concealed from the multitude, as is written in the book of
    Tobit: "It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,"--in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude
    Origen de Principiis book 1 ch 2.5 (185- 254ad)
    Now, we find in the treatise called the Wisdom of Solomon the following description of the wisdom of God: "For she is the breath of the power of God, and the purest efflux of the glory of the Almighty."
    Origen de Principiis book 3 par 4 (185- 254ad)
    And the apostle says that "God put it into the heart of Titus." That certain thoughts are suggested to men's hearts either by good or evil angels, is shown both by the angel that accompanied Tobias
    Origen to Africanus par 1 (185-240ad)
    Your letter, from which I learn what you think of the Susanna in the Book of Daniel, which is used in the Churches
    Origen to Africanus par 2 (185-240ad)
    In answer to this, I have to tell you what it behoves us to do in the cases not only of the History of Susanna, which is found in every Church of Christ in that Greek copy which the Greeks use, but is not in the Hebrew, or of the two other passages you mention at the end of the book containing the history of Bel and the Dragon, which likewise are not in the Hebrew copy of Daniel; but of thousands of other passages also which I found in many places when with my little strength I was collating the Hebrew copies with ours. For in Daniel itself I found the word "bound" followed in our versions by very many verses which are not in the Hebrew at all, beginning (according to one of the copies which circulate in the Churches)
    Origen to Africanus par 13 (185-240ad)
    However, since the Churches use
    Tobias, you must know that even in the captivity some of the captives were rich and well to do.
    Dionysius On Nature, 3 (190-265 ad)

    "But listen to the divine oracles…[quotes Sirach 16:24-25].”
    Cyprian of Carthage Letter 5.2 (200-270 ad)
    For there remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished, since it is written "Praise not any man before his death;” [Sirach 11:30] and again, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life [Revelation 2:10].
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 7 par 20 (200-270 ad) (he mentions Tobias 8 times in the treatises)
    Be rather such a father to your children as was Tobias. Give useful and saving precepts to your pledges, such as he gave to his son; command your children what he also commanded his son, saying: Him that which pleaseth Him; and command thy sons, that they exercise righteousness and alms, and be mindful of God, and bless His name always."
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 8 par 5 (200-270 ad)
    Daniel, when king Nebuchodonosor was in anxiety, being frightened by an adverse dream, gave him, for the turning away of evils, a remedy to obtain the divine help, saying, "Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to thee; and redeem thy sins by almsgivings, and thine unrighteousness by mercies to the poor, and God will be patient to thy sins." And as the king did not obey him, he underwent the misfortunes and mischiefs which he had seen, and which he might have escaped and avoided had he redeemed his sins by almsgiving. Raphael the angel also witnesses the like, and exhorts that alms should be freely and liberally bestowed, saying, "Prayer is good, with fasting and alms; because alms doth deliver from death, and it purgeth away sins." (Tobit 4:10-11)
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 8 par 6 (200-270 ad)
    Neither, beloved brethren, are we so bringing forward these things, as that we should not prove what Raphael the angel said, by the testimony of the truth. In the Acts of the Apostles the faith of the fact is established; and that souls are delivered by almsgiving not only from the second, but from the first death, is discovered by the evidence of a matter accomplished and completed. When Tabitha, being greatly given to good works and to bestowing alms, fell sick and died, Peter was summoned to her lifeless body; and when he, with apostolic humanity, had come in haste, there stood around him widows weeping and entreating, showing the cloaks, and coats, and all the garments which they had previously received, and praying for the deceased not by their words, but by her own deeds.
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 14 (200-270 ad) (he quotes the book 8 times in this treatise)
    In the Wisdom of Solomon: "Let us lay hold of the righteous, because He is disagreeable to us, and is contrary to our works, and reproacheth us with our transgressions of the law.
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 11 par 1(200-270 ad)
    Also in the Wisdom of Solomon: "They counted all the idols of the nations to be gods, which neither have the use of eyes to see, nor noses to draw breath, nor ears to hear, nor fingers on their hands to handle; and as for their feet, they are slow to go
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 53 (200-270 ad)
    In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: "We see now through the glass in an enigma, but then with face to face. Now I know partly; but then I shall know even as also I am known." Also in Solomon, in Wisdom: "And in simplicity of heart seek Him." Also in the same: "He who walketh with simplicity, walketh trustfully." Also in the same: "Seek not things higher than thyself, and look not into things stronger than thyself."
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 17 (200-270 ad)
    In the Epistle of Paul to the Romans: "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy of comparison with the glory that is to come after, which shall be revealed in us." Of this same thing in the Maccabees: "O Lord, who hast the holy knowledge, it is manifest that while I might be delivered from death, I am suffering most cruel pains of body, being beaten with whips; yet in spirit I suffer these things willingly, because of the fear of thine own self." Also in the same place: "Thou indeed, being powerless, destroyest us out of this present life; but the King of the world shall raise us up who have died for His laws into the eternal resurrection of life." Also in the same place: "It is better that, given up to death by men, we should expect hope from God to be raised again by Him. For there shall be no resurrection to life for thee." Also in the same place: "Having power among men, although thou art corruptible, thou doest what thou wilt. But think not that our race is forsaken of God.
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 4 (200-270 ad)
    Also in the same place: "The bow of the mighty men has been made weak, and the weak are girt about with strength." Of this same thing in the Maccabees: "It is just to be subjected to God, and that a mortal should not think things equal to God." Also in the same place: "And fear not the words of a man that is a sinner, because his glory shall be filth and worms. Today he shall be lifted up, and to-morrow he shall not be found; because he is turned into his earth, and his thought has perished."
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 11 (200-270 ad)
    What, indeed, do we find in the Maccabees of seven brethren, equals alike in their lot of birth and virtues, filling up the number seven in the sacrament of a perfected completion?
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12.4 (200-270 ad)
    " Of this same thing in the Maccabees: "It is just to be subjected to God, and that a mortal should not think things equal to God." (mentioned 4 times in this treatise)
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 29 (200-270 ad)
    Also in Baruch: "For the time shall come, and ye shall seek me, both ye and those who shall be after you, to hear the word of wisdom and of understanding; and ye shall not find me
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 56 (200-270 ad)
    In the Wisdom of Solomon: "In every place the eyes of God look upon the good and evil." (mentioned 9 times in the treatise)
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 testimonies 1 (200-270 ad)
    " Of this same matter in Tobit: "And I said to Tobias, My son, go and bring whatever poor man thou shalt find out of our brethren, who still has God in mind with his whole heart.
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 12 par 20 (200-270 ad)
    as the seven angels who stand and go in and out before the face of God, as Raphael the angel says in Tobit
    Cyprian of Carthage epistles 51 par22 (200-270 ad)
    But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, works," which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his works, because it is written, "Alms do deliver from death," and not, assuredly, from that death which once the blood of Christ extinguished, and from which the saving grace of baptism and of our Redeemer has delivered us, but from that which subsequently creeps in through sins. (tobit)
    Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 3 par 35 (200-270 ad)
    be earnest in righteous works, whereby sins may be purged; frequently apply yourself to almsgiving, whereby souls are freed from death (tobit)
    Aphrahat Demonstrations 5 Of Wars par 20 (280-367 ad)
    For this was accomplished at that time, when the venerable and aged Eleazar was slain, and the sons of the blessed Samuna, seven in number, and when Judas (Maccabeus) and his brethren were struggling on behalf of their people, when they were dwelling in hiding-places.
    Athanasius on the Incarnation of the Word par 4 (296-373 ad)
    as Wisdom says: "The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality;"
    Athanasius discourse 1 Against the Arians ch 4.12 (296-373)
    Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth[2];' and Susanna said, 'O Everlasting God[3];' and Baruch wrote, in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One[4];' yet forasmuch as the Apostle, writing to the Hebrews, says, 'Who being the radiance of His glory and the Expression of His Person[5];' and David too in the eighty-ninth Psalm, 'And the brightness of the Lord be upon us,' and, 'In Thy Light shall we see Light[6],' who has so little sense as to doubt of the eternity of the Son
    Athanasius Discourse 2 Against the Arians par 79 (296-373 ad)
    But if, as the Son of Sirach says, 'He poured her out upon all His works; she is with all flesh according to His gift, and He hath given her to them that love Him(7),' and this outpouring is a note, not of the Essence of the Very(8) Wisdom and Only-begotten
    Commodianus Writings Ch 61 (300-360 ad)
    Look forward to thy meals from that Tobias who always on every day shared them entirely with the poor man.
    Gregory of Nyssa Against Eunomius book 4 ch 7 (325-386 ad)
    For they too gave the name of God to Dagon and Bel and the Dragon, but they did not on that account worship God. For the wood and the brass and the monster were not God.
    Gregory of Nyssa Answers to Eunomius’ second book (325-386 ad)
    whereas wise Daniel, in setting right the Babylonians' error of idolatry, that they should not worship the brazen image or the dragon, but reverence the name of God, which men in their folly had ascribed to them
    Basil Letter 199 par 44 (329-379 ad)
    The mother of the Maccabees saw the death of seven sons without a sigh, without even shedding one unworthy tear. She gave thanks to God for seeing them freed from the fetters of the flesh by fire and steel and cruel blows, and she won praise from God, and fame among men.
    Basil Letter de Spiritu Sancto ch 10.19 (329-379 ad)
    So as Judith says, "Thou hast thought, and what things thou didst determine were ready at hand."
    Basil Letter de Spiritu Sancto ch 28.70 (329-379 ad)
    They ought rather to bewail their weakness, in that we are powerless to express in words our gratitude for the benefits which we are actually receiving; for He "passes all understanding," and convicts speech of its natural inability even to approach His dignity in the least degree; as it is written in the Book of Wisdom,' "Exalt Him as much as you can, for even yet will He far exceed; and when you exalt Him put forth all your strength, and be not weary, for you can never go far enough."
    Jerome Letter 31 par 2 (347-420 ad)
    Your presents, indeed, remind me of the sacred volume, for in it Ezekiel decks Jerusalem with bracelets, Baruch receives letters from Jeremiah, and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ.
    Ambrose of Milan On the Christian Faith book 1 par 3 (340-397 ad)
    By evidence gathered from Scripture the unity of Father and Son is proved, and firstly, a passage, taken from the Book of Isaiah, is compared with others and expounded in such sort as to show that in the Son there is no diversity from the Father's nature, save only as regards the flesh; whence it follows that the Godhead of both Persons is One. This conclusion is confirmed by the authority of Baruch.
    Ambrose of Milan On the Christian Faith book 5 ch 7.94 (340-397 ad)
    For Tobias sent Raphael the archangel, and an angel was sent to Balsam, and the Son of God to the Jews
    Ambrose of Milan On the Holy Spirit book 3 par 39 (340-397 ad)
    For when Susanna, assailed by the conspiracy of the elders, saw that the mind of the people was moved by consideration for the old men, and destitute of all help, alone amongst men, conscious of her chastity she prayed God to judge; it is written: "The Lord heard her voice, when she was being led to be put to death, and the Lord raised up the Holy Spirit of a young youth, whose name was Daniel."
    Ambrose On the Duties of the Clergy Book 3 Ch 13.82 (340-397 ad)
    SEE! Judith presents herself to thee as worthy of admiration.
    Ambrose On the Duties of the Clergy Book 3 Ch 7.37 (340-397 ad)
    If, indeed, the words in Ecclesiasticus testify that the medicine of life and immortality is in a friend; yet none has ever doubted that it is in love that our best defence lies.
    Ambrose On the Duties of the Clergy Book 3 Ch 14.54 (340-397 ad)
    Thus, again, he who speaks in the book Ecclesiasticus says: "Who seeth me? The darkness hath covered me, and the walls have hidden me; whom do I fear?"
    Ambrose On the Duties of the Clergy Book 3 Ch 16.96 (340-397 ad)
    TOBIT also clearly portrayed in his life true virtue, when he left the feast and buried the dead, and invited the needy to the meals at his own poor table.
    Ambrose On the Duties of the Clergy Book 3 Ch 18.107 (340-397 ad)
    The sacrifice which was consumed in the time of Moses was a sacrifice for sin, wherefore Moses said, as is written in the book of the Maccabees: "Because the sacrifice for sin was not to be eaten, it was consumed."
    Ambrose of Milan On the Duties of the Clergy Book 2 Ch 24.145 (340-397 ad)
    So everything entrusted to the temple was preserved in the name of the widows alone, as we read in the book of the Maccabees.
    Ambrose of Milan Concerning Virgins book 2 ch 4 (340-397 ad)
    Rahab, too, was a harlot, but after she believed in God, she found salvation. And Judith adorned herself that she might please an adulterer, but because she did this for religion and not for love, no one considered her an adulteress. This instance turned out well. For if she who entrusted herself to religion both preserved her chastity and her country,
    Tyrannius Rufinus Apology book 2 par 33 (340-410 ad)
    We cannot doubt that, amongst other things necessary for the instruction of the church, he himself delivered to them the treasury of the sacred books, which, no doubt, had even then begun to be read under his presidency and teaching. What are we to say then? Did Peter the Apostle of Christ deceive the church and deliver to them books which were false and contained nothing of truth? Are we to believe that he knew that the Jews possessed what was true, and yet determined that the Christians should have what was false? But perhaps the answer will be made that Peter was illiterate, and that, though he knew that the books of the Jews were truer than those which existed in the church, yet he could not translate them into Latin because of his linguistic incapacity. What then! Was the tongue of fire given by the Holy Spirit from heaven of no avail to him? Did not the Apostles speak in all languages?
    Tyrannius Rufinus Apology book 2 par 32 (340-410 ad)
    Perhaps it was a greater piece of audacity to alter the books of the divine Scriptures which had been delivered to the Churches of Christ by the Apostles to be a complete record of their faith by making a new translation under the influence of the Jews.
    Tyrannius Rufinus Apology book 2 par 33 (340-410 ad)
    In all this abundance of learned men, has there been one who has dared to make havoc of the divine record handed down to the Churches by the Apostles and the deposit of the Holy Spirit? For what can we call it but havoc, when some parts of it are transformed, and this is called the correction of an error? For instance, the whole of the history of Susanna, which gave a lesson of chastity to the churches of God, has by him been cut out, thrown aside and dismissed. The hymn of the three children, which is regularly sung on festivals in the Church of God, he has wholly erased from the place where it stood. But why should I enumerate these cases one by one, when their number cannot be estimated? This, however, cannot be passed over. The seventy translators, each in their separate cells, produced a version couched in consonant and identical words, under the inspiration, as we cannot doubt, of the Holy Spirit; and this version must certainly be of more authority with us than a translation made by a single man under the inspiration of Barabbas.
    Jerome Letter 71 par 3 (347-420 ad)
    We read in Ecclesiasticus: "he that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith."
    Jerome Letter 75 par 2 (347-420 ad)
    For, as it is written in the book of Wisdom, he was "taken away lest that wickedness should alter his understanding
    Jerome Letter 1 par 9 (347-420 ad)
    Let Susannah also rise in the nobility of her faith before the thoughts of all; who, after she had been condemned by an unjust sentence, was saved through a youth inspired by the Holy Ghost.
    Jerome Letter 7 par 6 (347-420 ad)
    Fortunate the roof which shelters the martyr-mother of the Maccabees, with her sons around her, each and all wearing the martyr's crown!
    John Chrysostom Homily 36 on Matthew’s Gospel ch 3 (347-407 ad)
    Therefore the Maccabees were admired, because for the observance of the law they suffered what they did suffer
    John Chrysostom Homily 81 on John’s gospel (347-407 ad)
    For, "Give alms," it saith, "of such things as ye have, and behold all things are clean unto you." (Luke xi. 41.) "Alms," not covetousness, for that which proceeds from covetousness endures not, though thou give to those who need. For almsgiving is that which is free from all injustice, "this" makes all things clean. This is a thing better even than fasting, or lying on the ground; they may be more painful and laborious, but this more profitable. It enlightens the soul, makes it sleek, beautiful, and vigorous.
    John Chrysostom Homily 4 on Philippians (347-407 ad)
    And again, "And let our people also learn to maintain good works." (Tit. iii. 14.) And again, "These things are good and profitable unto men." (Tit. iii. 8.) Listen to a certain other one who saith, "Alms do deliver from death" (Tob. xii. 9)
    John Chrysostom Homily 40 on Acts ch 18 (347-407 ad)
    Now Sirach tells us the things that are subversive (of friendship), and does not go on to speak of the things which make union. "Reproaching," he says, "and revealing of a secret, and a treacherous wound." (Ecclus. 22, 27.)
    Augustine of Hippo Catechising the Uninstructed par 22 (354-430 ad)
    If, however, grief has taken possession of us on account of something in which we ourselves have erred or sinned, we should bear in mind not only that a "broken spirit is a sacrifice to God," but also the saying, "Like as water quencheth fire, so alms sin;" (tobit)
    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 11 ch 18 (354-430 ad)
    This is quite plainly stated in the Book of Ecclesiasticus, in this way: against the godly. So look upon all the works of the Most High, and these are two and two, one against another."
    Augustine of Hippo City of God Book 16 ch 27 (354-430 ad)
    Whence it is written in the book called Ecclesiasticus, "All flesh waxeth old as doth a garment. For the covenant from the beginning is, Thou shall die the death."
    Augustine on the Sermon on the Mount Book 2 ch 9 par 32 (354-430 ad)
    Susanna was tempted, but she was not led or brought into temptation; and many others of both sexes: but Job most of all, in regard to whose admirable stedfastness in the Lord his God, those heretical enemies of the Old Testament, when they wish to mock at it with sacrilegious mouth, brandish this above other weapons, that Satan begged that he should be tempted.
    Leo the Great Letter 15 (395-461 ad)
    And the apocryphal scriptures, which, under the names of Apostles, form a nursery-ground for many falsehoods, are not only to be proscribed, but also taken away altogether and burnt to ashes in the fire. For although there are certain things in them which seem to have a show of piety, yet they are never free from poison, (apocryphal writings are not the deuterocanon to Leo)
    Apostolic Constitutions book 4 par 11 (400ad)
    As Solomon says somewhere in the book of Wisdom: "Chasten thy son, and he will refresh thee; so wilt thou have good hope of him.
    Apostolic Constitutions book 2 par 37 (400ad)
    so as not to be hasty in cutting off, nor to believe alI accusations; for it sometimes happens that some, either through passion or envy, do insist on a false accusation against a brother, as did the two elders in the case of Susanna in Babylon, and the Egyptian woman in the case of Joseph
    Apostolic Constitutions book 8 par 2 (400ad)
    Of old, Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron, and after her Deborah, and after these Huldah and Judith"--the former under Josiah, the latter under Darius.
    Well, glad we could put this controversy to bed. y/w, everyone!
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 01-16-2018 at 11:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  29. #115
    HB, all SF sees is four posts of samples of barium.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    HB, all SF sees is four posts of samples of barium.
    You do know what radiologists do with barium, right?
    ...

  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    HB, all SF sees is four posts of samples of barium.
    LOL The good thing about Sola is not his honesty, sincerity, or intellectual powers-for these he lacks-but he does challenge me to prove what I know and sharpen my skills by virtue of his antagonism and amazing ignorance. God bless him.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 01-17-2018 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #118
    LOL, I wasn't going where RJB did... in case you missed my earlier point:

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    To use an analogy from one of the few Lutherans I still pay attention to, you are like a scientist who claims there is no such thing as barium, and to prove it, you're going to throw out all the samples of barium.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    LOL, I wasn't going where RJB did... in case you missed my earlier point:
    I know. You have far more class than I do.
    ...

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    LOL, I wasn't going where RJB did... in case you missed my earlier point:
    Yeah, I did miss that. I was reviewing chant late last night and I'm sleepy toady. Gotta get back to it now, in fact. ttyl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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