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Thread: New Jersey Residents Threatened with Arrest and Fines for Possession of Raw Milk

  1. #1

    New Jersey Residents Threatened with Arrest and Fines for Possession of Raw Milk


    The raw milk wars are heating up again.

    Raw milk is illegal in New Jersey, so many people who wish to drink pure, unadulterated raw milk direct from the farm, need to cross state lines into neighboring states in order to obtain it.

    Not satisfied apparently with restricting the production, sale, and distribution of raw milk in New Jersey, state regulators, allegedly backed by the powerful FDA, are going after citizens in New Jersey for mere possession of the banned substance. Furthermore, they are apparently targeting immigrants in the state, mainly from India, where raw milk is a big part of their culture and cuisine.

    Terrified citizens of New Jersey today fear fines and possible civil action simply for possessing raw milk.

    Food activist David Gumpert blogged about the recent action in New Jersey, as he has been in contact with some of the citizens who are being threatened.

    In a December 9, 2017 post he wrote:

    It’s highly unusual for food regulators in a raw milk enforcement crackdown to visit private homes and threaten consumers.

    Within the last two weeks, at least one investigator from a New Jersey health authority has visited private homes in at least four towns that serve as drop sites for private food clubs, taking photos of food coolers and warning consumers they could face fines or other legal penalties, presumably for using their homes as pickup points for raw dairy and other food for their local neighborhoods.

    Perhaps New Jersey regulators feel emboldened in targeting consumers because of the agency’s special enforcement wrinkle: All the communities targeted by the investigation thus far appear to be in neighborhoods heavily populated by immigrants from India.
    Gumpert contacted local officials about the harassing visits to people in their homes, but did not get a response as to why they were targeting raw milk consumers, most of whom were from India:

    “as of now, it’s impossible to know exactly what prompted the NJ investigation or where it will go from here.”
    However, it was not much longer before Gumpert found out just what they were up to: terrorizing local citizens for transporting raw milk into New Jersey from a neighboring state.



    In a December 17th blog post Gumpert wrote:

    New Jersey is seeking to preserve its image as one of the least tolerant states in the country for raw milk by serving at least eight of its residents with “cease and desist” letters claiming they are “selling and distributing unpasteurized (raw) milk in this state.”

    The letters, which arrived late last week via certified mail, demand that the recipients, within five days, “provide written confirmation that these practices have ceased…Failure to cease and desist in the sale and distribution of raw milk in this state will result in the Department’s pursuit of appropriate civil sanctions against you.”

    The letters are signed by Loel Muetter, program manager of the Public Health and Food Protection Program.

    As the NJ Department of Health no doubt intended, the letters have created a panic among the recipients and other members of the community who consume raw milk. “I am fearful of possible fines,” one recipient of the cease-and-desist order told me. “We’re frightened. It could be in the thousands.”

    But this resident, who didn’t want to be identified, also expressed anger. “They want to cut off this great food. The gall of them!”

    The targeted residents say the letter’s accusations are untrue, that they aren’t either selling or distributing raw milk in New Jersey. The milk is purchased at a farm in Pennsylvania, they say, and residents have it brought to the homes of volunteers in NJ who hold the milk until neighbors can pick it up. These volunteers don’t handle money and aren’t paid. (Full article here. – Emphasis added.)
    Carrying raw milk from one state to another for personal consumption is not illegal, according to the FDA. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 2011 issued a statement sanctioning the transport of raw milk across state lines by consumers “for his or her own personal consumption.”

    So why is New Jersey targeting its residents and spending tax payer resources to go after a few people bringing raw milk into their state?

    Direct to Consumer Milk Sales Threaten Big Dairy

    While food regulatory agencies, such as the FDA, would like to convince the public that raw milk is dangerous and is a public hazard, nothing could be further from the truth.

    As our info-graph at the top of this article illustrates, food-borne illnesses that end up killing people are most common in raw produce, and raw chicken – raw foods that are perfectly legal and found in your local supermarket.

    There are no records of anyone dying from drinking raw milk in the U.S. for the past 50 years or so. Sales of raw milk are generally legal in other parts of the world, and in places in Europe you can even purchase raw milk in vending machines.

    The real reason government agents are sent to try and intimidate raw milk producers and consumers is that direct to consumer milk sales from dairy farmers threatens Big Dairy, and their massive subsidies that keep milk prices low.

    In 2011 the fight against raw milk drew national attention with the FDA sting operation against Pennsylvania Amish raw milk supplier Dan Allgyer.

    Allgyer was working with buyer clubs in Maryland and Washington D.C. to allow them to receive deliveries of raw milk and other farm products.

    Food activist and journalist David Gumpert covered the story back then as well, writing in April of 2011:

    The FDA sent a number of its agents into undercover mode to gather the goods on Dan Allgyer, the Pennsylvania Amish farmer named in a complaint filed on behalf of the FDA by the U.S. Department of Justice seeking a permanent injunction prohibiting the farmer from distributing milk outside of Pennsylvania.

    According to the complaint filed in U.S. District court a couple weeks back, the FDA undercover effort has been going on for more than a year. “In late 2009, an investigator in FDA’s Baltimore District Office used aliases to join” the cooperative that Allgyer’s farm was supplying in Maryland and Washington, DC. The complaint noted that the group “warns group members to ‘not share information about our group and certainly not about our farmer’ with government agencies or doctors…”

    Over the 15 months between December 2009 and March 2011, additional FDA investigators used the cooperative’s “online ordering website and placed orders for unpasteurized cow milk on 23 occasions…Payment for each purchase was made in the form of a money order payable to Dan Allgyer.” Payment was either mailed to Allgyer “or left inside a zip closure bag that was located at the pick up site in Maryland. FDA investigators picked up each unpasteurized milk order at various private residences in Maryland.”

    I’m sure it will reassure the owners of these homes to know that FDA investigators were roaming their garages, decks, and back yards, snooping around, doing everything necessary to protect the owners and other food club members from not only the milk, but the eggs, beef, chicken, and other foods they sign on for from the Allgyer farm.
    The battle lines were being drawn between consumer rights and government regulatory officials over the purchase of direct-from-the-farm pure raw milk.

    The nation’s largest seller of organic milk, Organic Valley, soon weighed in on the issue, and issued a statement preventing their co-op members from selling raw milk direct to consumers. The reason was NOT because the leaders of Organic Valley viewed raw milk as dangerous, many of them were dairy farmers and drank raw milk themselves, it was purely for economic reasons. When organic milk producers commit to so much volume of milk, and then fail to meet their contractual obligations to supply that much milk, it hurts businesses who rely on producers to supply enough milk into their “milk pools” that go into producing dairy products.

    David Gumpert covered this issue as well in 2011, and wrote:

    He said Organic Valley has confronted a growing problem of milk “diversion”–raw milk that doesn’t make it onto Organic Valley trucks for processing because it’s being sold unpasteurized, or else used for making cheese, butter, and other products.

    “We may have a commitment to a processor for 50,000 pounds of milk, and when we show up with 35,000 pounds, that’s a problem.”

    Both men indicated that the raw milk issue was the most divisive in the cooperative’s 23-year history. But they also made clear that the decision was a business decision, having little or nothing to do with raw milk’s perceived risks or the wishes of regulatory authorities. They noted that probably all Organic Valley’s directors and executive board members are raw milk drinkers.
    Hence, small-scale dairies who provide a superior milk product that is both healthy and safe face a dilemma: if they sell directly to the consumer at prices much higher than what Big Dairy will pay for their milk to be added to their milk pools, they risk losing their business to large milk wholesalers. So unless they can direct-market their entire milk supply to consumers, something very few dairy farmers can do, they are forced to sell their entire milk supply into the commercial milk pools.

    Which is exactly what Big Dairy wants. This has nothing to do with raw milk hazards or public health.

    Consumers Fight Back: Real Food Consumer Coalition

    There are well-documented studies showing that raw milk produced safely from animals that are primarily grazers, and not confined to feed lots, is healthy and can even prevent allergies in children.

    When such a healthy product is cut off from consumers, there will naturally be push-back from consumers. Imagine a hard-working mother trying to raise her children in healthy ways who discovers that a local dairy farm supplying pure, unadulterated milk directly from the cow before being processed, results in better health for her children, including eliminating allergies, and then finds out she can no longer purchase that milk because bureaucrats tell the public such a product is dangerous.

    Such consumers are rapidly increasing in the U.S. today, and they have done their homework, realizing that raw milk from small-scale producers is a product that has been in the food chain for thousands of years, and is largely available in many countries outside the U.S.

    It is even reported that in the early 1900s President Taft kept a cow on the grounds of the White House supplying raw milk to everyone living in the White House. (See: President Taft Kept a Cow on the White House Lawn and Drank Raw Milk)

    Today, one of the leading advocacy groups fighting for consumer rights to choose their own food including raw milk, is the Real Food Consumer Coalition (RFCC).

    RFCC was conceived through conversations with a new real food (raw milk) consumer after he learned about Amos Miller’s troubles with the USDA. Said consumer, a past Tribal Leader who specializes in Native American Tribal and water issues on the west coast, suggested to Liz Reitzig that a labeling scenario could be the ideal ice-breaker in opening up interstate raw milk sales. Not perfect, but progress.

    Ms. Reitzig, an accomplished and outspoken raw milk activist , quickly approached other leading raw milk advocates and core organizers to establish a coalition based on the fact that consumers need to be represented and protected as well. Also, many Amish and small family farmers are not allowed to have legal representation, or can not afford it.

    RFCC was born.
    RFCC already has a petition in place that would solve the problem these residents in New Jersey are facing here at the end of 2017.

    Petition Explained: Citizen’s Petition For Exemption of Raw Milk Interstate Transportation Ban When the Milk is Labeled as Indicated

    Advocates for direct farm-to- consumer food rights, the Real Food Consumer Coalition (RFCC), have filed a petition with the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). This petition, when accepted by the FDA, would eliminate an important layer of FDA regulatory enforcement against raw milk farmers—the agency’s ban on interstate transportation or sale of raw milk. Farmers would be exempt from enforcement of this regulation if they provide warning labels and a recipe for pasteurization on raw milk products.

    The warning labels are similar to labels currently required in many states. The recipe for pasteurization is included so that individual consumers can make their own choices about how to best handle the milk.
    This petition asks the FDA to accept such labeling for raw milk products, as an alternative to its draconian prosecution of Amish farmers and others who for centuries have produced and consumed raw milk products.

    Emord and Associates, a Washington DC law firm with extensive experience in food regulation, filed the citizen’s petition with the FDA on April 26, 2017. The FDA legally has 180 days to respond.

    While we await the answer to the petition, attorneys for any farmers cited (now or during this waiting time) for non-compliance with CFR1240.61 can file a motion of stay for their clients pending the response to this petition.

    During the 180-day period, advocates for consumer choice will work with Congressional representatives to push for a legislative and more permanent repeal of the regulation in conjunction with the request in the petition.
    Liz Reitzig, one of the founders of RFCC, commented on the current situation in New Jersey on David Gumpert’s website:

    It is deeply disturbing what is happening in New Jersey–and, as you mention, most likely in collusion with the FDA.

    The fact that state or county bureaucrats are working hard to intimidate peaceful residents simply because they are allowing community members to gather at their homes–this has much broader implications on many levels.

    While on the surface this appears to be about raw milk, we need to look seriously at what is happening here and how the current laws and regulations encourage this kind of enforcement.

    Regarding: “U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 2011 issued a statement sanctioning the transport of raw milk across state lines ‘for his or her own personal consumption.’”

    Is there another Freedom Ride brewing?

    In 2011, I spearheaded the Raw Milk Freedom Riders (RMFR) because consumers and raw milk advocates were frustrated with the FDA’s draconian enforcement measures and policy to investigate, spy and raid the milk producers who were delivering fresh nutrient dense raw milk across state lines.

    A close circle of raw milk advocate/activist friends and I organized the first Freedom Riders event (as you were first to report David) on November 1, 2011. The RMFR (a caravan of raw milk procuring moms) transported fresh milk from Pennsylvania into Maryland and then proceeded to join the RMFR rally in front of the FDA headquarters in Silver Spring Maryland where we distributed and enjoyed delicious raw milk and cookies.

    That very same day, the FDA released a statement saying, “The FDA has never taken, nor does it intend to take, enforcement action against an individual who purchased and transported raw milk across state lines solely for his or her own personal consumption.”

    The Farm Food Freedom Coalition (F3C), which I co-founded, continued to ask the FDA for dialog on the above matter in order to meet the needs of the thousands of consumers fighting the government for their right to choose and procure this healthy food against the FDA’s ongoing policy, and government overreach.

    F3C boldly stated, “We are in the minority and our rights are not being considered, we deserve to be heard.” For years F3C has “tried to work with the FDA to meet their needs to protect consumers from unsafe food while keeping the freedom for those who seek unprocessed, fresh raw milk to continue to have access to this healthy, healing product.”

    From conception, F3C has suggested that, “raw milk crossing state lines for human consumption could be labeled with the same warnings as other foods receive that are potentially dangerous when consumed raw (like poultry, pork, beef, oysters).”

    We state,“ All we ask is raw milk be treated fairly, instead of outlawing it. The FDAs policy appears to be arbitrary and in the best interest of food processors to restrict access to raw milk. Prove us wrong by opening the discussion and protecting the rights of those in the minority who seek raw milk meant for human consumption.”

    Further, I helped create RFCC when the USDA was pursuing charges against Amos Miller’s buying club (Miller’s Organic). RFCC, in conjunction with PA attorney Joseph Macaluso, worked to keep all consumer information away from the courts and the agencies and was instrumental in finding a peaceful resolution to Amos’ contempt of court charges.

    Thus, protecting both consumers and farmers from overzealous regulations and the regulators tasked with enforcing those regulations even when it means targeting their own community members.

    RFCC was victorious in representing Amos and negotiating the contempt conditions, has delivered probably the most realistic plan for reducing abusive enforcement through our Citizen’s Petition with the law firm Emord & Assoc., and we are now fighting to help the consumers in NJ.

    The FDA is using a bottom-to-top strategy to isolate individual consumers and to circumvent the RFCC Citizen Petition and go after another farmer in their aggressive overreach to protect big corporations and destroy small farmers. Currently, no raw milk farmer is safe.

    Yes, it is time to again challenge these laws and regs. The petition remains the best means to do so, along with a concerted political campaign to change the law and repeal the interstate ban entirely.

    Along with that, we must insist on public scrutiny of the FDA’s role in enforcement and collaboration in destroying the lives of peaceful Americans and America’s guests.

    The FDA is relentlessly pursuing their agenda to shut down raw milk production and consumption. Ultimately, they will not do that. But it is up to us to act proactively prevent the further loss of life and liberty for our community members–whether they are Americans or our honored guests.
    David Gumpert gives this advice to those of you living in New Jersey:

    I would encourage all NJ raw milk drinkers, along with everyone in the state who supports food rights, to contact their state reps, and protest this aggressive enforcement behavior. The state legislators control the budget of the NJ Department of Health, and thus have more influence than anyone else on its behavior.
    Uncensored Health Freedom News:
    http://healthimpactnews.com/

    Yes, I believe the science of vaccines is settled - Zippyjuan Team



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  3. #2
    You must first think of the children! Raw milk is dangerous. Breastfeeding should be outlawed.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    Not satisfied apparently with restricting the production, sale, and distribution of raw milk in New Jersey, state regulators, allegedly backed by the powerful FDA, are going after citizens in New Jersey for mere possession of the banned substance. Furthermore, they are apparently targeting immigrants in the state, mainly from India, where raw milk is a big part of their culture and cuisine
    I wonder if those Indians have a valid freedom of religion argument to use.

  5. #4
    We are fast approaching a time when delegated authorities will legally arrive at door steps, enter homes, and monitor everything for compliance. Possibly with the technology available, humans won't do the monitoring, the smart refrigerator, computer, television, security camera's........ will be utilized to report any infractions to the proper authority.

  6. #5
    Whatever happened to being able to do what I want with my own body?
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  7. #6
    Amish people are dropping like flies due to drinking raw milk...um..wait... oh no, they aren't I hope nobody looks into this.

    I expect nothing less from a place like NJ to enforce something that benefits them monetarily.

  8. #7
    Oh look - another low value post. Lamp gets banned, but this crap is ok?

    Been a while since I've had a neg for reminding everybody that Created runs a for-profit website and uses the links here to drive traffic to his own site.

    Also wanted to point out that his big scary info graphic is cherry-picked data. ""done their homework" -lol

    Here's the deal: go get a microscope. Doesn't have to be fancy - these days almost any microscope will do. Look at a drop of raw milk. See those worms swimming around? Those are parasites. They make people sick.

    During 2007–2012, a total of 81 outbreaks associated with nonpasteurized milk were reported from 26 states. These outbreaks resulted in 979 illnesses and 73 hospitalizations. No deaths were reported. The causative agent was reported for all outbreaks. Of the 78 outbreaks with a single etiologic agent, Campylobacter spp. was the most common pathogen, causing 62 (81%) outbreaks, followed by Shiga toxin–producing E. coli (13 [17%]), Salmonella enterica serotype Typhimurium (2 [3%]), and Coxiella burnetii (1[1%]) (Figure 1). Three outbreaks were caused by multiple pathogens (Figure 1). The number of outbreaks increased from 30 during 2007–2009 to 51 during 2010–2012. During 2007–2009, outbreaks associated with nonpasteurized milk accounted for ≈2% of outbreaks with an implicated food; during 2010–2012, this percentage increased to 5%. The number of outbreaks of Campylobacter spp. infection also increased, from 22 during 2007–2009 to 40 during 2010–2012 (Figure 1).

    Thumbnail of Percentage of patients affected by outbreaks associated with nonpasteurized milk, by age and etiologic agent, United States, 2007–2012.
    Figure 2. Percentage of patients affected by outbreaks associated with nonpasteurized milk, by age and etiologic agent, United States, 2007–2012.

    Information about the age of patients was available for 78 outbreaks (Figure 2). For 59% of outbreaks, at least 1 patient <5 years of age was involved (Figure 2), and 38% of illnesses caused by Salmonella and 28% of illnesses caused by Shiga toxin–producing E. coli were in children 1–4 years of age (Figure 2).
    See the sleight-of-hand there? There were no deaths, so it must be ok. But there's a reason they didn't go back a year farther. And of course there are thousands of reasons they didn't go back to the pre-pasteurization days.

    Comparing it to food death is apples to oranges. 2 things jump out at me: Everybody eats food while only a practically immeasurable fraction of Americans drink milk with parasites swimming around in it. Second, most of those deaths were related to organic fresh food.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Oh look - another low value post. Lamp gets banned, but this crap is ok?

    Been a while since I've had a neg for reminding everybody that Created runs a for-profit website and uses the links here to drive traffic to his own site.

    Also wanted to point out that his big scary info graphic is cherry-picked data. ""done their homework" -lol

    Here's the deal: go get a microscope. Doesn't have to be fancy - these days almost any microscope will do. Look at a drop of raw milk. See those worms swimming around? Those are parasites. They make people sick.



    See the sleight-of-hand there? There were no deaths, so it must be ok. But there's a reason they didn't go back a year farther. And of course there are thousands of reasons they didn't go back to the pre-pasteurization days.

    Comparing it to food death is apples to oranges. 2 things jump out at me: Everybody eats food while only a practically immeasurable fraction of Americans drink milk with parasites swimming around in it. Second, most of those deaths were related to organic fresh food.
    and before anybody accuses you of being a fascist, I'm pretty sure you respect everybody's right to drink milk filled with parasites and don't think it should be illegal.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    and before anybody accuses you of being a fascist, I'm pretty sure you respect everybody's right to drink milk filled with parasites and don't think it should be illegal.
    It's the thinking like Angela's that allow the fascist to move in and take our choices away.

    I am more concerned about parasites in sushi and pork than I am in raw grass-fed milk.

  12. #10
    All you guys are Hitler-loving, neo-Nazi, war-mongering, Moloch-worshiping fascists.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Oh look - another low value post. Lamp gets banned, but this crap is ok? ...
    Looks like some snowflake got triggered again. Don't like it , then don't drink it. But there is no need for arresting, fining, imprisoning or shooting people who do prefer raw milk, raw cheese or other raw foods. That is what freedom is all about. Sheesh!
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    Raw milk is illegal in New Jersey ... Not satisfied apparently with restricting the production, sale, and distribution of raw milk in New Jersey, state regulators, allegedly backed by the powerful FDA, are going after citizens in New Jersey for mere possession … targeting immigrants in the state, mainly from India, where raw milk is a big part of their culture and cuisine. …

    Within the last two weeks, at least one investigator from a New Jersey health authority has visited private homes in at least four towns that serve as drop sites for private food clubs …

    All the communities targeted by the investigation thus far appear to be in neighborhoods heavily populated by immigrants from India.
    Gumpert contacted local officials about the harassing visits to people in their homes, but did not get a response as to why they were targeting raw milk consumers, most of whom were from India …

    The targeted residents … aren’t either selling or distributing raw milk in New Jersey. The milk is purchased at a farm in Pennsylvania … These volunteers don’t handle money and aren’t paid. …

    Carrying raw milk from one state to another for personal consumption is not illegal, according to the FDA. The U.S. … So why is New Jersey targeting its residents and spending tax payer resources to go after a few people bringing raw milk into their state? …

    Sales of raw milk are generally legal in other parts of the world, and in places in Europe you can even purchase raw milk in vending machines. The real reason government agents are sent to try and intimidate raw milk producers and consumers is that direct to consumer milk sales from dairy farmers threatens Big Dairy …

    In 2011 the fight against raw milk drew national attention with the FDA sting operation against Pennsylvania Amish raw milk supplier Dan Allgyer. …

    The FDA sent a number of its agents into undercover mode to gather the goods on Dan Allgyer, the Pennsylvania Amish farmer … According to the complaint filed in U.S. District court a couple weeks back, the FDA undercover effort has been going on for more than a year. …

    Hence, small-scale dairies who provide a superior milk product that is both healthy and safe face a dilemma: if they sell directly to the consumer at prices much higher than what Big Dairy will pay for their milk to be added to their milk pools, they risk losing their business to large milk wholesalers. So unless they can direct-market their entire milk supply to consumers, something very few dairy farmers can do, they are forced to sell their entire milk supply into the commercial milk pools. Which is exactly what Big Dairy wants. This has nothing to do with raw milk hazards or public health.
    Fortunately, in Arizona raw milk is legal to possess, consumer, distribute, buy, sell.
    Here are some short raid clips on raw milk/raw cheese/raw produce "dangerous criminals" in other venues:









    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  15. #13
    Dr. Paul on his Raw Milk Freedom Bill:



    Reason TV Clip on a raw milk raid:
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Oh look - another low value post. Lamp gets banned, but this crap is ok?

    Been a while since I've had a neg for reminding everybody that Created runs a for-profit website and uses the links here to drive traffic to his own site.

    Also wanted to point out that his big scary info graphic is cherry-picked data. ""done their homework" -lol

    Here's the deal: go get a microscope. Doesn't have to be fancy - these days almost any microscope will do. Look at a drop of raw milk. See those worms swimming around? Those are parasites. They make people sick.



    See the sleight-of-hand there? There were no deaths, so it must be ok. But there's a reason they didn't go back a year farther. And of course there are thousands of reasons they didn't go back to the pre-pasteurization days.

    Comparing it to food death is apples to oranges. 2 things jump out at me: Everybody eats food while only a practically immeasurable fraction of Americans drink milk with parasites swimming around in it. Second, most of those deaths were related to organic fresh food.
    What part of freedom and personal responsibility don't you understand?

    Do you know how many people die or are injured by cars each year? Let's ban cars and imprison or kill any one possessing or selling them!
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What part of freedom and personal responsibility don't you understand?

    Do you know how many people die or are injured by cars each year? Let's ban cars and imprison or kill any one possessing or selling them!
    Moving goalposts.

    If people want to drink parasites then they should be allowed to. But insisting that raw milk doesn't pose a health risk is lying. Freedom depends on an informed populace.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Moving goalposts.

    If people want to drink parasites then they should be allowed to. But insisting that raw milk doesn't pose a health risk is lying. Freedom depends on an informed populace.
    A tiny amount of the product is occasionally tainted, so what? The same is true of too many kinds of food to count.

    If you are so worried about it then you shouldn't drink it, but leave others who think differently alone.

    I believe Marijuana to be bad for the mind but you don't see me harassing the people around here who promote it for recreational purposes.

    IF there really is a bigger problem with raw milk than some other products then the industry or even the state might set up a voluntary certification system to assure the public that a given seller is safe.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    States set the rules on raw milk sales- not the FDA. Only a handful of states currently ban the sale of it. Evil California actually has the most liberal laws concerning raw milk and other raw dairy products.

    States prohibiting raw milk sales to consumers:

    Alabama, Alaska, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia

    https://milk.procon.org/view.resourc...ourceID=005192

    Deaths are rare (not a lot of people regularly consume raw milk) but are not zero.

    http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2016/1.../#.WjrKTN-nGUk

    Final report published on boy’s death from drinking raw milk

    Were it not for his drinking raw milk, a 3-year-old Australian boy who died in 2014 would very likely still be alive to this day. That much has been known since the inquiry by Coroner’s Solicitor Rebecca Cohen.

    With the publishing of findings by Coroner Audrey Jamieson, those findings became final and official on Nov. 11. The 3-year-old boy’s death was from organ failure from drinking raw, unpasteurized milk.

    Jamieson said the source of that raw milk was Mountain View Farm, which produced Mountain View Organic Bath Milk labeled “not for human consumption” and “for cosmetic purposes only.”

    “I emphasize that at no point has prosecution been contemplated against Mountain View Farm, and the company was not considered to have breached at legislative at the time of (the child’s) death in 2014,” Jamieson ruled.

    His parents kept the boy on a gluten-free and organic diet that included giving him drinks of the raw milk sold for bath and cosmetic purposes. That’s is what apparently killed the boy.

    The coroner’s report says four other children became seriously ill from drinking Mountain View Organic Bath Milk around the same time as the boy’s death. Three of four children suffered from hemolytic uremic syndrome, a kidney disease often brought on E. coli infections.

    The fourth of the surviving children developed cryptosporidiosis, a parasitic infection associated with gastroenteritis.

    The boy who died was first treated at the Franklin medical center on Sept. 30, 2014, for vomiting and diarrhea. He was diagnosed with gastroenteritis and sent home. His parents took him back to the doctor on Oct. 2, 2014, when his conditioned worsened.

    Tests were ordered, but he was not dehydrated, and was again sent home. When blood showed up his stool, his parents took him to the Franklin hospital emergency room on Oct. 4, 2014.

    It was at that point that he was admitted to the hospital, where he died on Oct. 13, 2014, of thrombatic microangiopathy, a rare condition leading to organ failure.
    "Cosmetic purposes" is the way they are allowed to sell raw milk.
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A tiny amount of the product is occasionally tainted, so what? The same is true of too many kinds of food to count.

    If you are so worried about it then you shouldn't drink it, but leave others who think differently alone.
    If they want me to lobby for freedom, then they need to stop lying. For example, this sentence is a lie:

    Also, two people died in the past year after eating raw milk cheese.


    As long as the chuckleheads keep insisting that there's nothing to be concerned about, there's no incentive to set up any 3rd party purity testing.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    States set the rules on raw milk sales- not the FDA. Only a handful of states currently ban the sale of it. Evil California actually has the most liberal laws concerning raw milk and other raw dairy products.
    .
    You're as bad as they are though. The government shouldn't ban anything. But pretending that raw milk is not carrying parasites that might make you sick is nuts.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Moving goalposts.

    If people want to drink parasites then they should be allowed to. But insisting that raw milk doesn't pose a health risk is lying. Freedom depends on an informed populace.
    If you are getting your milk from a responsible dairy, the benefits outweigh the risks.

    Many people who are lactose intolerant have no issue drinking raw milk.

    There are also a lot of beneficials in all that live stuff.

    Don't you think breastfeeding children is healthy and important?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If you are getting your milk from a responsible dairy, the benefits outweigh the risks.

    Many people who are lactose intolerant have no issue drinking raw milk.

    There are also a lot of beneficials in all that live stuff.

    Don't you think breastfeeding children is healthy and important?
    http://time.com/17483/study-shows-on...e-intolerance/

    Study Shows That Raw Milk Doesn't Help Lactose Intolerance

    Only a small population of people drink unpasteurized milk, also known as “raw” milk, but its increasing popularity has some medical groups concerned. Some raw milk advocates argue that it’s healthier for us since raw milk contains no antibiotics or hormones, while others say it’s better for people with lactose allergies. For its part, the FDA advises against drinking raw milk, which can contain bacteria from fecal matter and sometimes be fatal, and has long stated that it doesn’t help with lactose intolerance.

    But a new study published in the Annals of Family Medicine is definitively poking holes in the allergy theory, by reporting that lactose-intolerant people have the same symptoms from raw and pasteurized milk.

    Advocates for raw milk claim that it contains good bacteria that can help with lactose absorption. “When I heard that claim it didn’t make sense to me because, regardless of the bacteria, raw milk and pasteurized milk have the same amount of lactose in them,” said study author Christopher Gardner, a professor of medicine at the Stanford Prevention Research Center in a statement. “But I liked the idea of taking this on since it seemed like a relatively straightforward and answerable question because the symptoms of lactose-intolerance are immediate.”

    The study was small, with only 16 lactose-intolerant participants. All 16 tried three different types of milk–raw, pasteurized, and soy–over multiple eight-day periods.

    For eight days, the participants were randomly assigned to one of the three milks, and they drank an increasing amount of that milk as the study period went on. They then reported their allergy symptoms, which were usually gas, diarrhea, and cramping, and rated them on a scale of 0 to 10. Their breaths were also measured for hydrogen, which can indicate undigested lactose in the colon and intolerance.

    After the first eight days of drinking one type of milk, the participants took a week off where they drank no milk, and then started up again with another eight days of a different type of milk. To mask which type of milk participants were drinking, researchers randomized the order and added sugar-free vanilla syrup. Soy, which doesn’t contain lactose, acted as the control.

    Researchers found no differences in the hydrogen breath tests between consuming pasteurized or unpasteurized milk. Participants also rated their symptom severity the same, regardless of the type of milk they drank.

    Although the study is small, it brings into question the benefits of raw milk for people with lactose intolerance. “It’s not that there was a trend toward a benefit from raw milk and our study wasn’t big enough to capture it; it’s that there was no hint of any benefit,” said Gardner in a statement.
    Link to study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3948760/
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  25. #22
    I agree with most on this thread that people should be able to put parasite–ridden animal breast milk into their body, if that's what they really want to do.

    But I think if most people knew the truth about dairy… both the health side of it, and what takes place before it gets to you, even on the so-called "humane" farms... they would ditch it ASAP.

    Even on the smaller farms, calves are taken away from their mother, usually on the first day of their life....Because we can't have the baby cow drinking our milk, can we? This separation is deeply distressful to both the mother and the baby. Then since the male calves are useless to the dairy industry, they are either killed immediately or they are raised for veal, meaning they will be put in a very small pen, not allowed to move so their muscles atrophy, and then of course they are killed at a young age so someone can satisfy their desire for baby flesh.

    Please watch this video, the whole thing.

    Last edited by lilymc; 12-20-2017 at 04:16 PM.
    Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

    Romans 12:2

  26. #23
    So some retarded scientist who straight out admits he didn't understand the science before or after did some bull$#@! study and got a mention in Time? So what? Why should I believe the retarded scientist who didn't even spend 3 $#@!ing minutes doing the basic research regarding WHY it is better for those who are lactose intolerant?? It isn't very difficult to find nor understand.

    I'm guessing he pastuerized the raw milk himself so he wouldn't 'endanger' the study participants, and called it raw milk, or some bull$#@! like that.

    Milk pasteurization damages the enzyme lactase – this enzyme is required to digest the milk sugar lactose. When we are babies, all of us produce lactase – in fact, it’s the reason that babies can drink breast milk. The sad part is… around the age of 4, lactase production declines on a massive scale – and and most of us are weaned by that age.Having no lactase in the milk (pasteurized) or the person drinking the milk makes for digestive distress and what we all know as lactose intolerance.


    When drinking raw milk, this is not a problem – because raw milk isn’t pasteurized and therefore the lactase is readily available.Thus, most people who are lactose intolerant to pasteurized milk can thrive on raw milk. My husband is one – several years later, he not only drinks it regularly, he thrives.


    https://www.rebootedmom.com/2017/05/...e-intolerance/
    Last edited by dannno; 12-20-2017 at 03:45 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So some retarded scientist who straight out admits he didn't understand the science before or after did some bull$#@! study and got a mention in Time? So what? Why should I believe the retarded scientist who didn't even spend 3 $#@!ing minutes doing the basic research regarding WHY it is better for those who are lactose intolerant?? It isn't very difficult to find nor understand.

    I'm guessing he pastuerized the raw milk himself so he wouldn't 'endanger' the study participants, and called it raw milk, or some bull$#@! like that.



    https://www.rebootedmom.com/2017/05/...e-intolerance/
    https://www.livestrong.com/article/3...s-of-raw-milk/

    Neither raw nor pasteurized milk contains lactase. Lactic acid bacteria in raw milk produce lactase, which may make raw milk more easily digestible for those who are lactose-intolerant; however, Claeys states in “Food Control” that the production of lactase by these bacteria is very limited at the refrigeration temperature required for storage of raw milk.
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Looks like the anti-choice faction has showed up.

    Control the food and you control the people.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  30. #26
    Do you even read what you post?? Try reading the part that isn't in bold..

    THEN consider that the raw milk sits in your stomach, where it is not refrigerated, and produces lactase, and is then digested...

    This stuff isn't that hard.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  31. #27
    https://www.godairyfree.org/news/what-is-lactase

    Actually it is hard.

    Timing is Tricky with Lactase

    If taken on an empty stomach, the high acidity level in your gut will destroy the lactase before it can work its magic. However, you need the lactase to hit your intestines before the lactose arrives. Taking it in the first five minutes of eating seems to be the most effective timing. Unfortunately, this means you must plan ahead to have the enzymes with you, but you can’t take them in advance. Plus, many people forget, or take the enzymes too late.
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Looks like the anti-choice faction has showed up.
    Who? He can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Zippy is the only one on the government's side here. (As usual.)
    Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

    Romans 12:2

  33. #29
    Yes, and he showed up. I have never tasted raw milk, but I know my sister in-law uses it. I might ask her to get extra next time.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Who? He can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Zippy is the only one on the government's side here. (As usual.)
    I am not against choice.
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

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