President Trump’s tax plan keeps the socialist communist progressive income tax alive

[dude58677]

People vote in our members of Congress. The people have more to do with our present circumstances than some are willing to admit. Unfortunately, and with regard to "tax reform", I have yet to find more than a handful of people who can discuss the issue on the same intellectual level as our founders discussed tax reform when framing our Constitution. And I have yet to find one radio or tv personality who is willing to expose their audience to the wisdom, merits and brilliance of our Founder's original tax plan.

JWK


“Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

Now to be President you have to either be a celebrity, business owner, etc. So there is really no point in being a career politician and if you are the American people will not reelect you. So there is no longer a career ladder in politics. So now if someone gets into political office it will be for the right reasons. If someone has a cause such as what you are talking about then that would be great. The election also showed that alternative nedia is taking over. So if you wanting start your own YouTube talk show and promote this cause and encourage others to run for office then great as well. You might even decided to run for Congress on this cause yourself. So yeah the 2016 presidential election is far reaching.

[johnwk]

All-or-nothings drive me crazy. Appreciate the steps. They might lead somewhere good.

Yup. The "steps" always lead back to keeping the worm at the root of the rotten tree which is the income tax.

This same kind of “tax reform” has happened a number of times during my life time, the last time being under President Reagan. When the Washington Sewer Rats realize the American People are getting sick and tired of the corrupt taxing “code” and how it is destroying America from within, our Congress critters back off with an illusion of “tax reform” which cleverly keeps the notoriously evil income tax alive and available to Congress to slowly re-create the same miseries which aroused the people into wanting “tax reform” in the first place.

How many freaken times must dim wits in America go through the same kabuki dance under tax reform to realize the problem is the freaken income tax which Congress uses to carry out its evil doings generation after generation?

When will the American people realize that repeating the same action over and over [tax reform which keeps the income tax alive] will never yield a different result?

The worm at the root of the rotten tree is in fact our nation’s love affair with the communist, socialist, progressive inspired income tax.

JWK



If, by calling a tax indirect when it is essentially direct, the rule of protection could be frittered away, one of the great landmarks defining the boundary between the nation and the states of which it is composed, would have disappeared, and with it one of the bulwarks of private rights and private property. POLLOCK v. FARMERS' LOAN & TRUST CO., 157 U.S. 429 (1895)

[johnwk]

Considering about every crack pot has a tax plan and about 99 percent of them actually raise my tax . Yeah , it is boring. LOL

Under the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment there would be no federal tax calculated from your profits, gains, wages, tips, or other lawfully earned incomes.


JWK




Are you really ok with 45 percent of our nation’s population who pay no taxes on incomes being allowed to vote for representatives who spend federal revenue which the remaining 55 percent of our nation’s hard working and productive population has contributed into our federal treasury via taxes on incomes when our Constitution requires “Representatives and direct taxes Shall be apportioned among the Several States”?

[Sonny Tufts]

Under the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment there would be no federal tax calculated from your profits, gains, wages, tips, or other lawfully earned incomes.

But there would be much higher state income taxes, since federal excises wouldn't come close to covering the federal budget, and the states would need to come up with revenue when Congress imposes a direct tax. Since all but a handful of the states already have an income tax system in place, the natural source for the required revenue would be additional income taxes.

The notion that the members of Congress (and the people who elect them) would agree to slash federal spending down to the level of the revenue from federal excises is pure fantasy.

[Superfluous Man]

This is so repetitive.

johnwk, you should just copy the text of the OP and make a bot to post it on your behalf every couple weeks.

[johnwk]

But there would be much higher state income taxes, since federal excises wouldn't come close to covering the federal budget . . .

So, now you are complaining the States would have to tax their own citizens to hand out free government cheese?


JWK



They are neither “liberals” nor “progressives”. They are conniving Marxist parasites who use government force to steal and then enjoy the property which labor, business and investors have worked to create.

[johnwk]

This is so repetitive.

johnwk, you should just copy the text of the OP and make a bot to post it on your behalf every couple weeks.

So, instead of talking about real tax reform, you came here to post a wise crack.


JWK

[johnwk]

I could be very cynical and say, ever since the communist/socialist/progressive 16^th Amendment was adopted, it seems that every 20 to 25 years or so tax “reform” becomes a very real issue because the people begin to realize how oppressive, discriminatory and screwed up the federal income tax system has become. And it becomes so messed up because our scheming Congress critters over this span of years, has used the system to sell discriminatory tax breaks in return for political campaign contribution; has used the system to reward friends and feather their own nests, not to mention how Congress uses “income taxation” to buy the votes of our nations hard working wage earners by promising to increase special exemptions and to lower a tax on their earn wages which ought never have been taxed from the beginning!

This somewhat summarizes the repeated cycle since the adoption of the notoriously evil “income tax” and especially the direct un-apportioned tax on working peoples earned wages which began under the unconstitutional, rope-a-dope “Temporary Victory Tax” of 1943 ___ an alleged temporary direct tax on working people’s earned wages to fund the war effort. And this “Temporary Tax” completed Congress’ lust for a totalitarian tax system designed by communists, socialists, and progressives which is now used to subvert our founders’ intended free market system and is used by our Washington Swamp creatures to not only manipulate our economy, but also used for a number of nefarious purposes.

And what did one of our forefathers say with regard to an unbridled direct tax? See Representative Williams during a debate on Direct Taxes on January 18th, 1797:

"History, Mr. Williams said, informed them of the annihilation of nations by means of direct taxation. He referred gentlemen to the situation of the Roman Empire in its innocence, and asked them whether they had any direct taxes? No. Indirect taxes and taxes upon luxuries and spices from the Indies were their sources of revenue; but, as soon as they changed their system to direct taxation, it operated to their ruin; their children were sold as slaves, and the Empire fell from its splendor. Shall we then follow this system? He trusted not."

There is no question in my mind that the tax plan which Trump has signed will help improve the economy and provide much needed tax relief. But as I have said before, the worm at the root of the rotted tree is in fact the communist, socialist, progressive tax calculated from profits, gains, tips, wages and other lawfully earned incomes, a system of taxation which not only allows Congress to engage in activities destructive to our nation’s common defense and general welfare, but actually encourages and entices members of Congress to use the system for their personal political gains. Must we go through the same misery every 20 or 30 years without identifying the cause of our sufferings?

Is it not time to discuss the merits, wisdom and brilliance of returning to our founder’s original tax plan which can be accomplished by adopting the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment ___ a tax plan designed by our Founders to control and regulate Congress actions?


JWK



“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people?Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

[Superfluous Man]

So, instead of talking about real tax reform, you came here to post a wise crack.


JWK

Taxation is theft.

In the mean time, any tax cut is a welcome improvement.

[nikcers]

Taxation is theft.

In the mean time, any tax cut is a welcome improvement.

Yes but its just fake tax cuts. You can't cut tax without cutting spending, spending is the real tax. There is no free lunch, if you think something is free then you are the product.

[johnwk]

Taxation is theft.
.

And by your logic so is the payment of rent a theft!

JWK



“…a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue it shall not be oppressive to our constituents.”___ ___Madison, during the creation of our Nation’s first revenue raising Act

[Sonny Tufts]

So, now you are complaining the States would have to tax their own citizens to hand out free government cheese?

It's not so much a complaint as it is an observation of what would occur with almost 100% certainty under your tax plan.

[devil21]

Some food for thought regarding income taxes. "Income" tax only applies to employees of the federal government. What does that make the average taxpayer? Yep, a federal employee. What does a self-made declaration of being a US Citizen imply? It implies that the Citizen is willingly an employee of the corporation called "government" and therefore is voluntarily responsible to pay the debts incurred by the corporation. The interest on that debt is serviced by....wait for it.....income taxes! This is why income tax was created at same time as Federal Reserve was. (Same system applies to state income taxes also.)

[johnwk]

Under the Fair Share Balanced Budget Amendment there would be no federal tax calculated from your profits, gains, wages, tips, or other lawfully earned incomes.

But there would be much higher state income taxes, since federal excises wouldn't come close to covering the federal budget

Not if each States' Congressional Delegation decided to federally fund only those functions listed under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1, and the States were thus forced to end free government cheese being handed out to the able bodied slugs and parasites who are now too lazy to work enough hours to meet their own economic needs. And, let us not forget we were talking about imposts, duties AND internal federal excise taxes being levied before laying a federal direct tax upon the states.

JWK

[johnwk]

So, now you are complaining the States would have to tax their own citizens to hand out free government cheese?

It's not so much a complaint as it is an observation of what would occur with almost 100% certainty under your tax plan.

First of all, it's not my tax plan. It's our Constitution's original tax plan as it was intended to operate by our founders.


Additionally, your "observation" of what would occur does not take into account the founder's plan would encourage each State's government to keep a jealous eye on the spending habits of its Congressional Delegation to avoid the apportioned tax, and likewise encourage each State's government to make certain able bodied slugs and parasites within their State who are now too lazy to work enough hours to meet their own economic needs would no longer become a public burden and get free government cheese.


JWK

[Superfluous Man]

Yes but its just fake tax cuts. You can't cut tax without cutting spending, spending is the real tax. There is no free lunch, if you think something is free then you are the product.

I agree that ultimately total taxation is always exactly equal to total spending.

However, tax cuts are always good. And cutting taxes before cutting spending is still good. The main reason is that practically speaking, government revenue must decrease before government spending ever will. We have to starve the Leviathan.

[Superfluous Man]

First of all, it's not my tax plan. It's our Constitution's original tax plan as it was intended to operate by our founders.

They're not my founders. And besides, they were wrong.

Taxation is theft.

[Slave Mentality]

Some food for thought regarding income taxes. "Income" tax only applies to employees of the federal government. What does that make the average taxpayer? Yep, a federal employee. What does a self-made declaration of being a US Citizen imply? It implies that the Citizen is willingly an employee of the corporation called "government" and therefore is voluntarily responsible to pay the debts incurred by the corporation. The interest on that debt is serviced by....wait for it.....income taxes! This is why income tax was created at same time as Federal Reserve was. (Same system applies to state income taxes also.)

All under the guise of “muh government services”.

[Sonny Tufts]

Additionally, your "observation" of what would occur does not take into account the founder's plan would encourage each State's government to keep a jealous eye on the spending habits of its Congressional Delegation to avoid the apportioned tax, and likewise encourage each State's government to make certain able bodied slugs and parasites within their State who are now too lazy to work enough hours to meet their own economic needs would no longer become a public burden and get free government cheese.

First of all, state governments don't elect their Congressional Delegations -- the people do, and they aren't about to allow the federal budget to be cut to the bone as your plan would require. Second, Congressional Delegations don't curb their spending habits now, and there's no reason to believe they would do so under your plan.

[Sonny Tufts]

"Income" tax only applies to employees of the federal government.

A tax protester myth.

This is why income tax was created at same time as Federal Reserve was.

The federal income tax was created 62 years before the Federal Reserve.

[nikcers]

A tax protester myth.



The federal income tax was created 62 years before the Federal Reserve.

That was when dollars were a unit of measuring how much money you have though. Our tax system doesn't work because whatever gets bought by printed money inflates in price and distorts the cost of doing business. Lowering some people's taxes is just picking winners and losers, not paying for the cuts guarantees the lower class gets hurt the most because if the cost of doing business goes up some businesses that don't have competition can just raise their prices so the cost of living goes up.

[Madison320]

I think that most RPF members do care about this subject but the cop issues are more emotional and the income tax is boring, also there are many different opinions on on what should replace the income tax and discussions tend to get bogged down debating them so most people would rather just avoid the subject.

So far there's only about 7 replies but none of them seem to be worried at all about the injustice of progressive taxation. Wealth envy is alive and well, even on a libertarian site. Look up the thread called "Which is worse, Obama's support for progressive taxation or Trump's support for tariffs?".

Wealth envy is alive and well, even on a libertarian site. I'm disappointed.

[devil21]

A tax protester myth.



The federal income tax was created 62 years before the Federal Reserve.

If it's a tax thread, you can bet your bottom dollar that Sonny Tufts will be on it setting us all straight on the truth

(16th Amendment -1913 Federal Reserve - 1913)

[Marenco]

The Case Against the Income Tax

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker’s paycheck. In the late 1800s, when Congress first attempted to impose an income tax, the notion of taxing a citizen’s hard work was considered radical! Public outcry ensued; more importantly, the Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional. Only with passage of the 16th Amendment did Congress gain the ability to tax the productive endeavors of its citizens.

Yet don’t we need an income tax to fund the important functions of the federal government? You may be surprised to know that the income tax accounts for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Only 10 years ago, the federal budget was roughly one-third less than it is today. Surely we could find ways to cut spending back to 1990 levels, especially when the Treasury has single year tax surpluses for the past several years. So perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all.

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process. It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior. The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses. All things considered, our Founders would be dismayed by the income tax mess and the tragic loss of liberty which results.

America without an income tax would be far more prosperous and far more free, but we must be prepared to fight to regain the liberty we have lost incrementally over the past century. I recently introduced “The Liberty Amendment,” legislation which would repeal the 16th Amendment and effectively abolish the income tax. I truly believe that real tax reform, reform that so many frustrated Americans desperately want, requires bold legislation that challenges the Washington mind set. Congress talks about reform, but the current tax debate really involves nothing of substance. Both parties are content to continue tinkering with the edges of the tax code to please various special interests. The Liberty Amendment is an attempt to eliminate the system altogether, forcing Congress to find a simple and fair way to collect limited federal revenues. Most of all, the Liberty Amendment is an initiative aimed at reducing the size and scope of the federal government.

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don’t believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress. Some sidestep Congress completely, bringing legal challenges questioning the validity of the tax code and the 16th Amendment itself. Ultimately, the Liberty Amendment could serve as a flashpoint for these millions of voices.

-- Ron Paul

[johnwk]

They're not my founders. And besides, they were wrong.

Taxation is theft.

[johnwk]

First of all, state governments don't elect their Congressional Delegations -- the people do, and they aren't about to allow the federal budget to be cut to the bone as your plan would require. Second, Congressional Delegations don't curb their spending habits now, and there's no reason to believe they would do so under your plan.

First of all, and for the second time, it's not my tax plan. It's our Constitution's original tax plan as our Founders intended it to operate.

Aside from that your post is a very, very clever deflection.

[johnwk]

So far there's only about 7 replies but none of them seem to be worried at all about the injustice of progressive taxation. Wealth envy is alive and well, even on a libertarian site. Look up the thread called "Which is worse, Obama's support for progressive taxation or Trump's support for tariffs?".

Wealth envy is alive and well, even on a libertarian site. I'm disappointed.

You have to understand most of these political forum sites, where people can actually have productive discussions and exchange ideas, are infested with operatives whose mission is to disrupt any productive discussion which may actually lead to real tax reform.


JWK

[johnwk]

I heard on Fox News this morning that the promise of tax simplification has gone by the wayside. As long as we have the communist/socialist/progressive income tax, the promise of tax simplification is dead on arrival, and Paul Ryan along with Brady knew this from the very beginning.

Our Washington Sewer Rats will cling, with all their life, to the communist/socialist/progressive income tax which they use to confiscate and then spread the wealth which is created by labor, business and investors.

JWK




There was a time not too long ago in New York when the able-bodied were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now, New York City and many other major cities are infested with countless government cheese factions, including recent abled bodied immigrants, who not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs, sex, and Lotto tickets.

[Sonny Tufts]

If it's a tax thread, you can bet your bottom dollar that Sonny Tufts will be on it setting us all straight on the truth

(16th Amendment -1913 Federal Reserve - 1913)

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution, authorizing federal taxation - 1787

First federal income tax -- 1861 http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage....db&recNum=340

Unanimous Supreme Court decision upholding its constitutionality - 1880 http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-suprem...t/102/586.html

[oyarde]

I of course think the current forms of tax are horrible . Using that though , for years I had a lot of mortgage interest which I could deduct , I still have a lot of property tax , which I can deduct . It does not personally benefit me for those to go away . If any think the current congress and senate are going to give you a better deal on taxes and spending , I say you have more faith than I .