Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 42

Thread: What would you do if you witnessed animal cruelty?

  1. #1

    What would you do if you witnessed animal cruelty?

    For Christmas each year I treat my family to Christmas show(s). We are staying in Lancaster PA this weekend for a long weekend to see several Christmas events. I found an Amish guest house on an Amish farm for lodging. This Amish family seems really nice. But there are 2 dogs out in a cold garage with no heat and no blankets. One is a recent Mama- her nipples are still showing. She's literally shivering: her eyes are red, there's mucous coming out of her nose and she smells pretty bad. They are laying on the cold ground. They are also separated where they can barely see each other (the male is in a pen where he cannot get out). The recent Mama jumped into my arms shivering and wanted me to keep hugging her. It's 21 degrees out there; it snowed tonight.

    I know Libertarians believe animals are "private property" and the owners can do anything they want to to animals. This is where I need to step aside and disagree: this is a life form that suffers and feels pain.

    Lancaster PA. apparently doesn't have an animal control officer or animal shelters like we have in Maryland. What would you do? As someone who always believed the Amish treated their animals like family, it's heartbreaking to witness this.

    Here's what I found out about Lancaster County PA.: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...ty-No-one.html



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    You asked what someone would do, so not sure if you're looking for any practical and immediate suggestions to address what is happening today for the dogs. I will try to give a practical reply, even though you probably have thought of practical solutions.

    Are the people open to any assistance? If so, then what about donating an old used blanket or two? You'd likely have to buy one, but the Goodwill store where I live sells really thick and clean blankets for $4.00. I once got two decent blankets for $1.00 each. You would not even have to tell them you bought it for them. Just pull it out of your car like you already had it. When the dog jumps in your arms, just wrap her up in it and put her back on the ground.

    Also, furniture stores often have a lot of old and really large cardboard boxes for disposal. You could cut a few boxes and layer each piece on the cold ground. It's not much, but that will, at least, help buffer the cold from the cement. If you want to go further, then stores like Home Depot sell some cheap, pressed wood sheets.
    Last edited by NorthCarolinaLiberty; 12-16-2017 at 04:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    For Christmas each year I treat my family to Christmas show(s). We are staying in Lancaster PA this weekend for a long weekend to see several Christmas events. I found an Amish guest house on an Amish farm for lodging. This Amish family seems really nice. But there are 2 dogs out in a cold garage with no heat and no blankets. One is a recent Mama- her nipples are still showing. She's literally shivering: her eyes are red, there's mucous coming out of her nose and she smells pretty bad. They are laying on the cold ground. They are also separated where they can barely see each other (the male is in a pen where he cannot get out). The recent Mama jumped into my arms shivering and wanted me to keep hugging her. It's 21 degrees out there; it snowed tonight.

    I know Libertarians believe animals are "private property" and the owners can do anything they want to to animals. This is where I need to step aside and disagree: this is a life form that suffers and feels pain.

    Lancaster PA. apparently doesn't have an animal control officer or animal shelters like we have in Maryland. What would you do? As someone who always believed the Amish treated their animals like family, it's heartbreaking to witness this.

    Here's what I found out about Lancaster County PA.: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...ty-No-one.html
    Many years ago, I worked for a rescue who had a humane investigator who always worked to educate the people and help them. It was never about trying to take animals away or get people into trouble. It was about trying to lessen the suffering of animals. The best way was just working with the people.

    My best advice would be to just bring the animals some blankets and try to talk to the people. You have to do it in a way that doesn't put them on the defense. It's not easy to do. Amish, in particular, are pretty hard on their animals.... not sure if you're going to have much luck, but it never hurts to try.

    I hope you're able to soften their hearts a bit towards their dogs.
    Thanks for your caring. There's not enough of that in this harsh world.

  5. #4
    Honestly, first, I would talk to them about it. Next, I'd try to come up with positive solutions. Help build a shelter, give a blanket, heater, whatever works that brings people together instead of pushing people apart. Anything beyond that only validates the reason for govt intrusion into all of our lives.

    Im really tempted to say "throw them to the wolves", but that would be much more reserved for those that actively torture their animals for amusement as opposed to neglect.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  6. #5
    Anything you do is a net positive................Anything you ask someone else to do is a negative.

    Do something, don't "call someone"....

  7. #6
    Everybody that has posted has been spot on. Try to work a solution and be respectful about it. If that doesn't work then I would not recommend anyone staying with them. Animals ARE property. But, a man is known by how he keeps his property.

  8. #7
    Regardless of how you feel about the animals it's not a good idea to bring any kind of trouble on people who open up their house for you. Repaying hospitality with a call to the authorities is the kind of thing that makes this world so terrible.

    If you do anything do something out of kindness like offering the family extra blankets or a heater. Remember that even if you sent the animals to a shelter they'd likely be put down. Also, it sounds like you haven't talked to the family about it yet and that's the first thing to do if you really care about the animals.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Animals ARE property. But, a man is known by how he keeps his property.
    Especially to the Amish. They are the last group of people that use horses as cars and tractors. It's a culture that used to be the norm but few people understand anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Mind my own business.

    Thanks for asking.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the animals it's not a good idea to bring any kind of trouble on people who open up their house for you. Repaying hospitality with a call to the authorities is the kind of thing that makes this world so terrible.

    If you do anything do something out of kindness like offering the family extra blankets or a heater. Remember that even if you sent the animals to a shelter they'd likely be put down. Also, it sounds like you haven't talked to the family about it yet and that's the first thing to do if you really care about the animals.
    They didn't "open up their house." It is lodging. It is business. I wouldn't call "authorities."

    But, If I couldn't come to a resolution, given in good faith and respectful, with the rental owner I damn well would end their credibility in anyway I could.

    I don't cotton to animal abuse. But, it's up to the owner. I damn well believe in the free market and my ability to either change their mind or cost them business.

    "Minding my own business" @angelatc, would not be an option.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    They didn't "open up their house." It is lodging.
    Seems to me where they keep the dogs would be pretty much where they live. It is on a family farm. My understanding is the OP is basically staying in their backyard.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Seems to me where they keep the dogs would be pretty much where they live. It is on a family farm. My understanding is the OP is basically staying in their backyard.
    We are staying in Lancaster PA this weekend for a long weekend to see several Christmas events. I found an Amish guest house on an Amish farm for lodging.
    I could be wrong. If it is free then just leave. Engage or do not engage. Personal choice.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I could be wrong. If it is free then just leave. Engage or do not engage. Personal choice.
    Oh I did not say it was free. I just thinking poking one's nose into someone's life beyond whatever arrangement you have is not a good idea. They use their home as their office but it's still their home. If I come to your house to buy a motorcycle that's all I'm doing there and it doesn't give me license to pay much attention to anything else. Now if I see a girl tied and gagged or see some stolen property that's different entirely. I'm not much on busybodies whether from the NSA or elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I could be wrong. If it is free then just leave. Engage or do not engage. Personal choice.
    Amish people view their animals as a means of producing income. They're not especially spiritual in that regard. A huge number of puppy mill puppies come from Amish farms, where they're kept in cages and killed after they can't produce any more puppies.

    I know this about the Amish, but I respect their way of life to leave them alone.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the animals it's not a good idea to bring any kind of trouble on people who open up their house for you. Repaying hospitality with a call to the authorities is the kind of thing that makes this world so terrible.
    That, and those who said the same thing.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Oh I did not say it was free. I just thinking poking one's nose into someone's life beyond whatever arrangement you have is not a good idea. They use their home as their office but it's still their home. If I come to your house to buy a motorcycle that's all I'm doing there and it doesn't give me license to pay much attention to anything else. Now if I see a girl tied and gagged or see some stolen property that's different entirely. I'm not much on busybodies whether from the NSA or elsewhere.
    I agree. Buying board for a few days is a bit different than spending 15 mins. haggling over a motorcycle though.

    And I admit I am a bit of a hypocrite. For instance...do what you want on your own property. If you mistreat your animal (i.e. property) in public like whipping an animal bloody with a qwerty, I'll probably take it from you and give you a bit of your own medicine. I admit, it is a flaw in my logic. And I'm fine with that.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Call the police and then deny it was me that called them until after they get arrested and then gloat about it
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  21. #18
    Feed the dogs with an extra spicy tofu dish with red peppers. That will warm them up.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Amish people view their animals as a means of producing income. They're not especially spiritual in that regard. A huge number of puppy mill puppies come from Amish farms, where they're kept in cages and killed after they can't produce any more puppies.

    I know this about the Amish, but I respect their way of life to leave them alone.
    exactly, it is their culture, leave it alone. if you don't like it, then don't give them your business. I know a lot of people like to put the amish up on a pedestal but I'm sure there is a lot of things about their culture they wouldn't like.

  23. #20
    Pleasantly surprised by the responses. If you want to mention something to the people, that is fine. Don't tattle on them. Treating dogs a certain way is cultural. Animal cruelty laws are wrong. Animals are property. Your property. Your rules.

    Michael Vick had his life ruined for nothing. Animals have no rights even if you have an emotional attachment to them.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I know a lot of people like to put the amish up on a pedestal but I'm sure there is a lot of things about their culture they wouldn't like.
    My grandfather is a farmer in amish country and deals with many of them a lot. Some of them are really skilled in the trades and very honest. However my grandfather got ripped off by a few. The other Amish agreed that that was a bad group. On occasion I tease my grandfather as being gullible enough to get ripped off by an Amish man.

    But in all seriousness. If you're around in Missouri, watch out for the La Plata Amish. They are hard core.
    Last edited by RJB; 12-16-2017 at 08:37 PM.
    ...

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    My grandfather is a farmer in amish country and deals with many of them a lot. Some of them are really skilled in the trades and very honest. However my grandfather got ripped off by a few. The other Amish agreed that that was a bad group. On occasion I tease my grandfather as being gullible enough to get ripped off by an Amish man.

    But in all seriousness. If you're around in Missouri, watch out for the La Plata Amish.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Animals are property. Your property. Your rules.

    I'm sure slave owners said the same thing.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I'm sure slave owners said the same thing.
    When you can convince the lion to respect the rights of the gazelle, we'll talk.

    Animals are animals.

    Human beings are not.

    Animals are property.

    Of course, none of us truly own property, so it's all moot.

    We are all owned by the state, and the state will do what it wishes with all of us..



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    When you can convince the lion to respect the rights of the gazelle, we'll talk.

    Animals are animals.

    Human beings are not.
    You contradicted yourself. Why should our behavior have anything to do with animal behavior, when humans are not animals, as you just admitted?

    Because we are not animals (or savages) that is all the more reason for us to not act like savages.

    Animals are property..
    Only according to man-made laws, but we all know man-made laws do not constitute actual truth.

    Of course, none of us truly own property, so it's all moot.

    We are all owned by the state, and the state will do what it wishes with all of us..
    I'm kind of surprised that you think this way. Just because a law says something doesn't mean it's the truth. We are not owned by the state.

    But for the sake of argument, let's assume that that's true. If you think it's unjust for the state to do whatever it wants with you, because you are their “property” – why would you turn around and do the exact same thing to those beneath you, i.e., the animals? Furthermore, why should anyone have mercy on you, in regard to what the state does to you, if you have no mercy toward those who are under your control? Do you not see the hypocrisy there?

    I'm not singling you out, of course. Most people think that animals are our property to do whatever we want with (at least certain animals.) Yet those same people complain when those who have control over them show no mercy. God said that those who show mercy will be shown mercy.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    You contradicted yourself. Why should our behavior have anything to do with animal behavior, when humans are not animals, as you just admitted?

    Because we are not animals (or savages) that is all the more reason for us to not act like savages.



    Only according to man-made laws, but we all know man-made laws do not constitute actual truth.



    I'm kind of surprised that you think this way. Just because a law says something doesn't mean it's the truth. We are not owned by the state.

    But for the sake of argument, let's assume that that's true. If you think it's unjust for the state to do whatever it wants with you, because you are their “property” – why would you turn around and do the exact same thing to those beneath you, i.e., the animals? Furthermore, why should anyone have mercy on you, in regard to what the state does to you, if you have no mercy toward those who are under your control? Do you not see the hypocrisy there?

    I'm not singling you out, of course. Most people think that animals are our property to do whatever we want with (at least certain animals.) Yet those same people complain when those who have control over them show no mercy. God said that those who show mercy will be shown mercy.
    Man is given dominion over the animals by GOD, we are responsible to him for how we use it and those who abuse them will be punished by HIM, but it is not the business of the state, if the owners described in the OP don't take any suggestions or proffered charity then the only thing left to do is decide if it is better to leave or not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Man is given dominion over the animals by GOD, we are responsible to him for how we use it and those who abuse them will be punished by HIM, but it is not the business of the state, if the owners described in the OP don't take any suggestions or proffered charity then the only thing left to do is decide if it is better to leave or not.
    I didn't say anything about the OP, I just replied to AF, so please only argue things I actually said.

    Man was given dominion, but I'm not sure what your point is. It seems that we agree Dominion means we rule over the animals, but it doesn't mean we own the animals. God is the owner, we are the managers or caretakers.

    I've posted this before, but for anyone who hasn't watched it, please take a few minutes to watch it.

    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I didn't say anything about the OP, I just replied to AF, so please only argue things I actually said.

    Man was given dominion, but I'm not sure what your point is. It seems that we agree Dominion means we rule over the animals, but it doesn't mean we own the animals. God is the owner, we are the managers or caretakers.

    I've posted this before, but for anyone who hasn't watched it, please take a few minutes to watch it.

    I was not sure of your exact position so I just laid out mine, and for legal purposes we do own animals, as far as our relationship with GOD goes: we don't "own" anything it is all granted to us as a stewardship and we will be held accountable for how we use it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I was not sure of your exact position so I just laid out mine, and for legal purposes we do own animals, as far as our relationship with GOD goes: we don't "own" anything it is all granted to us as a stewardship and we will be held accountable for how we use it.
    We are in agreement on that.

    The last part of what you said is what I try to get across to people who think that we can do whatever we want with animals. But unfortunately, to unbelievers those words usually fall on deaf ears.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Everybody that has posted has been spot on. Try to work a solution and be respectful about it. If that doesn't work then I would not recommend anyone staying with them. Animals ARE property. But, a man is known by how he keeps his property.
    A righteous person cares for the life of his animal, but even the most compassionate acts of the wicked are cruel. — Proverbs 12:10

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. R.P. on animal cruelty?
    By freedom-maniac in forum Ron Paul: On the Issues
    Replies: 204
    Last Post: 03-02-2018, 09:52 AM
  2. Non-cop gets charged with animal cruelty. Wife was the rat!
    By aGameOfThrones in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-17-2013, 10:31 AM
  3. Is this animal cruelty?
    By aGameOfThrones in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-14-2013, 02:31 PM
  4. Animal Cruelty Vs. Property Rights.
    By Fukthenannystate in forum Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies
    Replies: 121
    Last Post: 02-18-2013, 10:07 AM
  5. Animal cruelty question?
    By rpfan2008 in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-25-2009, 02:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •