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Thread: Christianity in Russia, 1917

  1. #1

    Christianity in Russia, 1917

    There were exactly two positions in Russia in 1917.

    (1) Orthodoxy, which meant absolute loyalty to the Tsar and absolute opposition to the bolsheviks.

    (2) bolshevism (atheism, horror, general destruction of everything)

    I would like to hear what our Orthodox members have to say about his matter.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  3. #2
    I want to know how many of the Orthodox collaborated with the bolsheviks, up to 1989.

    And, for those who did not, i.e. who are are human, I want to hear your story.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  4. #3
    Orthodoxy was never absolutely loyal to the Tsar or any other ruler.
    One needs only to consider that Orthodoxy exists globally to realize that.
    Now it is true that the Church in Russia was a bit too familiar with the Tsar.
    It's also true that the Church in Russia is too familiar with Putin today.
    I would go so far as to say the Church in Russia had an excellent learning opportunity on this point from 1917 to 1991 and chose not to avail itself of that opportunity.
    And I write that not only as an Orthodox Christian, but as one who is also under the Russian patriarch.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Orthodoxy was never absolutely loyal to the Tsar or any other ruler.
    One needs only to consider that Orthodoxy exists globally to realize that.
    Now it is true that the Church in Russia was a bit too familiar with the Tsar.
    It's also true that the Church in Russia is too familiar with Putin today.
    I would go so far as to say the Church in Russia had an excellent learning opportunity on this point from 1917 to 1991 and chose not to avail itself of that opportunity.
    And I write that not only as an Orthodox Christian, but as one who is also under the Russian patriarch.
    That's an interesting perspective.

    See, from where I stand, the problem was that the Church didn't honor their obligations to the Tsar.

    So, they got Lenin.

    ...though that may be a bit harsh, most (educated) Orthodox did oppose the bolsheviks.

    P.S. During the French Revolution, shortly after the murder of the King by the communists, Catholic priests raised peasant armies tens of thousands strong in the provinces, in order to defeat the monsters in Paris. They were slaughtered in the end, but they didn't go quietly or without protest. It is the absence of this kind of thing in Russia c. 1917 which disturbs me.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 12-16-2017 at 12:22 AM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  6. #5
    I don't know many stories but I am figuring out, layer by layer, the abject mess which is American Orthodoxy, and Russia is tied up in it.

    The Russian patriarchate is the only Orthodox body that evangelized America. There is very much a feeling as if America properly belongs under the Russian patriarch for that reason. When the Greeks showed up, they would band together and start a church for their own needs (brother TER, realize I'm just reporting, and would never throw rocks over this) but it was the Russians who saw America as an opportunity to make new Christians.

    And all was going fairly well - they made it from Alaska all the way down to California even. Then the revolution happened... but the attitude in the Russian church was, the churches in America were a lifeboat to keep specifically Russian Orthodoxy alive. I can understand why they did that - they probably thought Orthodoxy would become extinct in Russia.

    The communist state in Russia took control of the churches, and created an even weirder situation, because some groups in America still stayed loyal to the Russian church, and other groups didn't.

    I haven't researched what happened after the the wall came down nor how we got to where we are now. But I'll go ahead and give you what you're probably looking for.

    Yes, I'm totally ready to denounce the way Orthodox organizations have not only cozied up to the state, but utterly failed to learn anything from getting seriously burned by that in the 20th century. But then, how am I able to be Orthodox, you ask? Would not my statelessness advocacy cause a conflict?

    Yes, if I thought that is what Orthodoxy is. Fortunately it also has a two-millennia long history of monasticism, too. Countless numbers of men and women who even to this day choose to almost completely eschew society altogether. That is so ingrained in Orthodoxy that when the Lutheran reformers reached out to the Church in Greece, the fact that the Lutherans didn't practice monasticism was a pretty serious bone of contention.

    There are other ways in which Orthodoxy detaches from this world as well. I have serious Earthly problems with what some of my brethren believe with respect to how things are done on Earth. But we would all agree that in the end, the real end, all of that is going to be gone.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I don't know many stories but I am figuring out, layer by layer, the abject mess which is American Orthodoxy, and Russia is tied up in it.

    The Russian patriarchate is the only Orthodox body that evangelized America. There is very much a feeling as if America properly belongs under the Russian patriarch for that reason. When the Greeks showed up, they would band together and start a church for their own needs (brother TER, realize I'm just reporting, and would never throw rocks over this) but it was the Russians who saw America as an opportunity to make new Christians.

    And all was going fairly well - they made it from Alaska all the way down to California even. Then the revolution happened... but the attitude in the Russian church was, the churches in America were a lifeboat to keep specifically Russian Orthodoxy alive. I can understand why they did that - they probably thought Orthodoxy would become extinct in Russia.
    Given what was happening in Russia, a very reasonable expectation.

    The communist state in Russia took control of the churches, and created an even weirder situation, because some groups in America still stayed loyal to the Russian church, and other groups didn't.

    I haven't researched what happened after the the wall came down nor how we got to where we are now. But I'll go ahead and give you what you're probably looking for.

    Yes, I'm totally ready to denounce the way Orthodox organizations have not only cozied up to the state, but utterly failed to learn anything from getting seriously burned by that in the 20th century. But then, how am I able to be Orthodox, you ask?
    To be clear, I have a great deal of sympathy for the Orthodox Church.

    My criticism is limited to the whores who collaborated with the bolsheviks (if there were an anti-Christ, it would be them).

    Would not my statelessness advocacy cause a conflict?
    There's that. And yes, I think it does cause a conflict.

    Yes, if I thought that is what Orthodoxy is. Fortunately it also has a two-millennia long history of monasticism, too. Countless numbers of men and women who even to this day choose to almost completely eschew society altogether. That is so ingrained in Orthodoxy that when the Lutheran reformers reached out to the Church in Greece, the fact that the Lutherans didn't practice monasticism was a pretty serious bone of contention.

    There are other ways in which Orthodoxy detaches from this world as well. I have serious Earthly problems with what some of my brethren believe with respect to how things are done on Earth. But we would all agree that in the end, the real end, all of that is going to be gone.
    Well, I disagree, but I'll take a monk over a bolshevik any old day of the week.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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