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Thread: Contract Enforcement in Ancapistan

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post




    Have you never heard the phrase "sheriff sale"?
    You must be drinking tonight. Get back to me when you get the sheriff to seize the property of someone who owes you a hundred bucks.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    and where is the collateral?
    ^^ Contract Enforcement in Ancapistan

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    It kind of baffles me that people actually believe the justice system can be privatized. Not that government does a good job, but it would be absolutely idiotic to have a competitive, free market justice system.
    Have we never heard of arbitration?

    Alternative dispute resolution (ADR; known in some countries, such as India,[1] as external dispute resolution) includes dispute resolution processes and techniques that act as a means for disagreeing parties to come to an agreement short of litigation. It is a collective term for the ways that parties can settle disputes, with (or without) the help of a third party.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altern...ute_resolution

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    garnish the bank account

    lol

    another decade... that will be impossible

    #bitcoin

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    You must be drinking tonight. Get back to me when you get the sheriff to seize the property of someone who owes you a hundred bucks.
    I see you're now making a new and different claim (it's about the amount...), irrelevant to the original issue (whether the state enforces contracts)... Okay, you are truly the evasion-master, I bow before your brilliant trolling ways, and bow out of this "discussion" with you, as well.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I see you're now making a new and different claim (it's about the amount...), irrelevant to the original issue (whether the state enforces contracts)... Okay, you are truly the evasion-master, I bow before your brilliant trolling ways, and bow out of this "discussion" with you, as well.
    It was your "amount", not mine. Next time build a more expensive straw man.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  9. #37
    I have to say one more thing to you @otherone, for the sake of those $100 creditors out there whose dreams you've dashed.

    There's no minimum for civil suits. Some general trial courts have minimums, but then there are specialized courts for the smaller amounts.

    Feel free to search for evidence to the contrary.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    lol

    another decade... that will be impossible

    #bitcoin
    Criminals able to avoid compensating their victims.

    #bitcoin



    I'm kind of amazed at how blithely several of you are tossing fundamental principles of libertarian ethics.

    Apparently anarchy comes first, libertarianism being a distant second.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    This is why I no longer substantively participate in threads directed at anarchists by minarchists (and vice versa).

    They typically devolve into mutual recriminations of intellectual backruptcy, moral deficiency, etc.

    With only the second post, this one is already on its way down that well-trodden path ...
    If this forum has ever had a genuine anarchist, I have failed to detect him or her in many years.

    What it does have is a flock of hard lefties pretending to anarchism in order to troll the actual supporters of Ron Paul's policies - the minarchists. Scratch just a bit below the surface and you'll get all the same politically correct anti-sovereignty bull$#@! you get from the alphabet-identity crowd.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Contracts are unenforceable in Ancapistan because roving bands of marauders would run off with the contracts and you wouldn't be able to catch them because there's no roads
    This is why you are truly a great American. You're wisdom is awe inspiring.



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  14. #41
    Swordsmyth, rev3 & Influenza are vile moral defectives.

    That's for you, OB. I'm out.


  15. #42
    Only commenting because I don't neg without them

    - for Swordsmyth
    - for rev

    for being dicks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Only commenting because I don't neg without them

    - for Swordsmyth
    - for rev

    for being dicks.
    Repeat after me, we cannot live without the state
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Repeat after me, we cannot live without the state
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.

    All hail the state, without which no good thing is possible. All hail.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Repeat after me, we cannot live without the state
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    We cannot live without the state.
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    All hail the state, without which no good thing is possible. All hail.
    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but;

    I agree.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I have to say one more thing to you @otherone, for the sake of those $100 creditors out there whose dreams you've dashed.

    There's no minimum for civil suits. Some general trial courts have minimums, but then there are specialized courts for the smaller amounts.

    Feel free to search for evidence to the contrary.
    Yes, pay 60 dollars to file a civil suit for 100 dollars. So that the state can steal 20+% wholesale from your wages to pay for the multimillion dollar fountain and palace of the agents who will then garnish the person who defaulted to “make whole” the lender.

    Because anyone positing that there may be a more efficient and moral way with regards to loans and debt collection is obviously missing the point.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    All hail the state, without which no good thing is possible. All hail.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    How would you rewrite the loan agreement between Smith and Jones to solve the problem (in an ancap society)?
    "Local Warlord Smith shall loan $100 to Serf Jones, and Jones shall repay him $500 in a year. If any dispute arises as a result of this contract or otherwise, Smith's enforcers will murder all of Jones's male family members and offspring and take all females under the age of 30 as payment for their services."



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    "Local Warlord Smith shall loan $100 to Serf Jones, and Jones shall repay him $500 in a year. If any dispute arises as a result of this contract or otherwise, Smith's enforcers will murder all of Jones's male family members and offspring and take all females under the age of 30 as payment for their services."
    Sayeth YHWH to the Israelites

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    "Local Warlord Smith shall loan $100 to Serf Jones, and Jones shall repay him $500 in a year. If any dispute arises as a result of this contract or otherwise, Smith's enforcers will murder all of Jones's male family members and offspring and take all females under the age of 30 as payment for their services."
    That's why only idiots borrow from Smith.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    That's why only idiots borrow from Smith.
    Ah, but Smith is the only option. You know, free market means monopolies everywhere. There is no justice department to break them up. You should be grateful for our government.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Yes, pay 60 dollars to file a civil suit for 100 dollars. So that the state can steal 20+% wholesale from your wages to pay for the multimillion dollar fountain and palace of the agents who will then garnish the person who defaulted to “make whole” the lender.

    Because anyone positing that there may be a more efficient and moral way with regards to loans and debt collection is obviously missing the point.
    Otherone's claim that you can't file suit for $100 is both false and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

    Your claim that litigation is too expense is quite true, but still irrelevant.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I predict that the only response you will get from the Anarchists is this:

    Smith can't afford to lose money he lends out? Smith shouldn't loan money.
    Jones doesn't have a support system in place so he has to rely on Smith? Jones isn't making wise life choices.

    Ancapistan is a way of living that recognizes man's nature, and therefore doesn't go looking to create more "enforcement" issues.

    Smith and Jones are obviously living in the wrong neighborhood if they can't or won't humble themselves to some wisdom 101.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    Smith can't afford to lose money he lends out? Smith shouldn't loan money.
    Jones doesn't have a support system in place so he has to rely on Smith? Jones isn't making wise life choices.

    Ancapistan is a way of living that recognizes man's nature, and therefore doesn't go looking to create more "enforcement" issues.

    Smith and Jones are obviously living in the wrong neighborhood if they can't or won't humble themselves to some wisdom 101.
    Do you feel the same about enforcing property right in general?

    E.G. Is it unnecessary to force vandals to compensate their victims?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Otherone's claim that you can't file suit for $100 is both false and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

    Your claim that litigation is too expense is quite true, but still irrelevant.
    Da fuq you say. Where did I make that claim?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Otherone's claim that you can't file suit for $100 is both false and irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

    Your claim that litigation is too expense is quite true, but still irrelevant.
    It is relevant in that a Constitution which held individual rights higher than other covenants seen in history still has been, in relatively short time, bastardized to the point of absurdity.

    You say property rights cannot be done absent government. I say societal organization hardly could be more immoral than what is occurring now.

    To steal from all to make victims whole, even assuming that the only thing the courts were there for would be to enforce property rights and actual crimes ignores the fact that you are creating victims in the name of making victims whole— i.e. the forgotten man.

    At worst, and what would occur I’d add, is that over time the system would become sluggish, expensive, and corrupt.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    You say property rights cannot be done absent government.
    I say that anarcho-capalists can't explain how property rights would be enforced in their ideal society, which is a problem.

    ...since the whole point of anarcho-capitalism is, allegedly, to make property more secure than it is under a state.

    I say societal organization hardly could be more immoral than what is occurring now.
    No, it can get much worse.

    To steal from all to make victims whole, even assuming that the only thing the courts were there for would be to enforce property rights and actual crimes ignores the fact that you are creating victims in the name of making victims whole— i.e. the forgotten man.
    I think less aggression is preferable to more aggression.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I say that anarcho-capalists can't explain how property rights would be enforced in their ideal society, which is a problem.

    ...since the whole point of anarcho-capitalism is, allegedly, to make property more secure than it is under a state.
    First and most importantly, my property is hardly secure now. Some 40% is taken before I even see it with varying percentages being siphoned afterwards. This is done to protect my property.. which is an insult to reason. My ability to defend my property is hindered additionally.

    Contracts are not written in blood. Some will inevitably be broken. Collateral, reputation, ostrasization, criminals being summarily gunned down— these are deterrents. Society will never be utopian.

    I suppose I should turn the questions around and ask you how you propose to keep your ideal state limited? Is it possible?

    No, it can get much worse.
    It could get much better as well.

    And either way, one is moral, the other is not.

    If we were all poorer through an honest and free society I’d say... so what?

    As it stands, the overwhelming majority which is good would be free to defend themselves and their property and as well, they’d be forced to. Or not. But as I said, so what?

    I think less aggression is preferable to more aggression.
    Indeed.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Contracts are not written in blood. Some will inevitably be broken. Collateral, reputation, ostrasization, criminals being summarily gunned down— these are deterrents. Society will never be utopian.
    This thread was about the problem of contract enforcement in a stateless society. It's now obvious that none of the ancaps here have any solution to that problem. The responses so far have been about how contract enforcement doesn't matter. I think my point's been made.

    And either way, one is moral, the other is not.
    Aggression is immoral.

    More aggression is more immoral than less aggression.

    Yet many ancaps, including yourself evidently, only really care about aggression if it's committed by the state. If a stateless society involved 10x as much aggression as a state society, apparently you'd still say it was more moral. In other words, it appears that you hate the state far more than you love liberty.

    If we were all poorer through an honest and free society I’d say... so what?

    As it stands, the overwhelming majority which is good would be free to defend themselves and their property and as well, they’d be forced to. Or not. But as I said, so what?
    Again, if you want to abolish the state, no matter the consequences (in terms of the incidence of aggression), you're missing the whole point.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    This thread was about the problem of contract enforcement in a stateless society. It's now obvious that none of the ancaps here have any solution to that problem. The responses so far have been about how contract enforcement doesn't matter. I think my point's been made.
    Because contract enforcement in society is perfect, good, or even adequate in many cases today. What we are posturing is that nothing is perfect. Not every scenario could be seen or solved as there is not an incentive to solve them.

    Why don’t you share some of your proposals to fix this joke of a system with regards to contract enforcement.. or any other matter for this time?

    Or is the costly, absurd, disregarding the victim, creating more victims to fund robed whores and palaces what minarchists dream of?

    And trust, if I weren’t on this piece of $#@! phone, I’d not only more properly debunk your belief in minor authoritarianism, I’d quite easily poke holes in your proposals as easily as you can mockingly poke holes in mine. You know why? Because minarchism has been seen and is evidenced with immorality, corruption, thuggery, cost prohibition, absurdity and down right stupidness.

    So stand behind the $#@!ed off altar. As you said, it can get much worse. And it will. As they crucify another, slave.

    Aggression is immoral.

    More aggression is more immoral than less aggression.
    And when this less aggression evolves into an omnipotent nanny state that polices and extorts almost everyone on this planet...?

    Because clearly the warlord, not propped up by the supposed legitimacy of the state, could acquire such power without a bullet.

    Yet many ancaps, including yourself evidently, only really care about aggression if it's committed by the state. If a stateless society involved 10x as much aggression as a state society, apparently you'd still say it was more moral. In other words, it appears that you hate the state far more than you love liberty.
    You are being silly. And it’s rather unfortunate typing end quote to respond to your ridiculousness.

    How about a simple version. I own me. I own my $#@!. You own you. You own your $#@!. Do business with who you know, with who has a reputation for holding their word. There would be market solutions such as arbitration, various ratings/reviews, collateralized and/or insured loans. The solutions are endless. Yet here under request by you, I am supposed to predict or invent future market fixes once a given sector cease being bastardized. Tsk tsk.

    Again, if you want to abolish the state, no matter the consequences (in terms of the incidence of aggression), you're missing the whole point.
    The results would be societal flourishment.

    I’d add too, the same thing could be said of slavery, fiat currency, freeing all who were imprisoned by a dishonest cop... etc.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

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