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Last edited by goldenequity; 12-09-2017 at 09:11 AM.
This was an entirely orchestrated crisis: another sad episode in the 'clash of civilizations" certain parties here and in Israel have been fabricating for decades. This was bound to create polarization in the region, strengthening both extremes at the expense of moderates, and making compromise less likely - and that is precisely why the neocons/likudniks have been pushing for it (no doubt the ISIS leadership is also pleased). It's just like with the settlement policy, which is less about the scraps of land which are gained than about the political lobby against compromise which is created.
http://original.antiwar.com/paul/201...civilizations/The credibility of all American politicians now requires acknowledging that America is engaged in a great war for survival – “the war against Islam.” Fear of “radical Islamic terrorists” requires our undivided attention. We’re to believe that the ugly and vicious violence of a very small percentage of the 1.7 billion Muslims around the world, without an army, navy, or air force, is on the verge of engulfing America and Western civilization. The claim is that the Western concept of Christianity, liberty, and free markets is threatened. If this is so, it speaks more about the weak support for these values than for the strength of a small group claiming to speak for all of Islam. It may not make much sense, but it provokes the fear required for warmongering.
The popular belief that a gigantic clash of civilizations explains today’s conditions fits well into the propaganda efforts of the neocon inspired American Empire. One cannot deny that a group exists that associates itself with Islam and preaches violence in combination with extreme religious beliefs. Al Qaeda and ISIS do exist. Claiming that they alone are responsible for the great “clash” is purposely misleading. That misunderstanding is required by Western propagandists to gain public support for their wars in the Middle East, and for a continuation of the American Empire. Unfortunately, so far it has worked pretty well.
Fear is the tool used to galvanize a people into supporting war while sacrificing liberty. Exaggerations and propping up groups who falsely claim to represent 99 percent of Muslims, serves the interests of those in the West who want the clash of civilizations for their own selfish purposes. Current US and Western support for ISIS in Syria, even though it’s denied, is designed to remove Assad. This policy is in the tradition of our foreign policy of recent decades. Aligning ourselves with the creation of Hamas and the mujahedin (Taliban) is well documented.
The emphasis on a clash of civilizations is more about ruthless pragmatism than it is of a great battle of two civilizations. Promoters of war must first find or create an enemy to demonize in order to gain the people’s support for stupid and illegal preemptive wars. The Iraq war was built on lies and fearmongering. US leaders, prodded by the neoconservatives, continue to propagandize for a “crusade” against Islam in order to justify rearranging the Middle East according to their desires. Disregarding all previous failures in this effort is not a problem if the people can be convinced that the enemy is grotesque and threatening our way of life.
It’s strange, but 130 people killed in Paris has served the purpose of throwing reason to the wind, and the majority of Americans have become anxious for a showdown with Islam no matter how many lies have to be told and people killed.
If what is said by the neoconservatives about Islam is true, nuking Indonesia would seem logical. Two hundred and three million Muslims could be wiped out rather quickly. What many fail to admit is that ISIS deliberately manipulates Islam to inspire violence by some, which helps them gain recruits for their cause. This is not a reflection of the 1.6 billion Muslims around the world. It’s like claiming that the KKK represents sound Christian theology. Many evangelical Christians support preemptive war in the Middle East, but that doesn’t mean that Christians must give up the notion that, as Jesus said, “Blessed are the Peacemakers.”
Both sides of this huge so-called clash of two civilizations benefit from allowing fringe elements of both religious cultures to support the hypothesis. Both sides need the fear associated with a clash of civilizations to motivate the masses to fight a war that Western leaders have initiated. It may be a hoax, but such a war is still very dangerous and can easily spin out of control.
Israel has a right to exist. Israel can recognize whatever capital they want and the US should recognize what Israel says is their capital.
Rioting and violence is not okay. There should be no appeasement to the animals that surround Israel.
“We Will Not Serve in Your Army!” Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem Beaten, Arrested for Refusing Draft
http://www.mintpressnews.com/we-will...-draft/235323/
Orthodox J€ws in New York protest US Jerusalem move
---------
Greek Orthodox Patriarch Theofilos and heads of local churches ask US president to revoke Jerusalem decision
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/201...ump-jerusalem/
Russian Market
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan and French President Emmanuel Macron spoke over phone, agreed to try to persuade U.S. to reconsider its decision on Jerusalem, @Reuters
Armenia
HIS HOLINESS ARAM I REJECTS THE U.S. RECOGNITION OF JERUSALEM AS THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL
http://www.armenianorthodoxchurch.org/en/archives/20770
Turkish Assyrians: Jerusalem belongs to 3 faiths, not 1
http://www.yenisafak.com/en/world/tu...-not-1-2880157
Asharq Al-Awsat Eng-
Breaking| Jordan FM: We reject Washington's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
'No Pence-Abbas talks'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42294409
The US vice-president is due to visit the Middle East later this month, but Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' adviser Majdi al-Khaldi said the pair would not be meeting.
"America has crossed all red lines with its latest decisions over Jerusalem," Majdi al-Khaldi said.
EndGameShow-
Egypt: Arab Foreign Ministers Condemn Trump's Jerusalem Decision
Times Square
-----------
Thousands protest against Netanyahu for second week in Tel Aviv
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Tho...el-Aviv-517550
AFP news agency-
Israelis take part in the "March of Shame" demonstration to protest against government corruption and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQoU7RbUMAAvzLd.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQoU57KV4AAbz8l.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQoU2M3VoAABS87.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQoU1BwV4AAdWQ_.jpg:large
IsraelPalestine has a right to exist.IsraelPalestine can recognize whatever capital they want and the US should recognize whatIsraelPalestine says is their capital.
Bulldozing, confiscating property, theft, raiding crops, poisoning livestock, shooting, kidnapping and shipping people to walled off concentration zones, and other violence is not okay. There should be no appeasement to the animals that surroundIsraelPalestine.
Last edited by AZJoe; 12-09-2017 at 05:59 PM.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
"War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.
This needs repeating because all of the propagandists and virtue signalers are distorting the truth:
The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”
More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
You make it sound like it's a fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, like it's a fact that Israel borders the Mediterranean. "Being a capital" is not a physical property of a city. It's not a fact. It's a moral idea, the essence of which is that the Israeli state (and not any present or future Palestinian state) should control Jerusalem. The question is: why should anyone endorse that moral idea? Well, for the people actually responsible for the decision, the reason is that propagating the idea aids Israeli nationalism. For people who have nothing but contempt for nationalism, Israeli or otherwise, it's hard to see any virtue in the idea, unless one positively likes violence., death, and destruction of property.
Bunk, Jerusalem is where they have located the seat of their government therefore it is their capital, that is a simple fact like the fact that Israel borders the Mediteranian.
And this apparently needs repeating AGAIN:
This needs repeating because all of the propagandists and virtue signalers are distorting the truth:
The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”
More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
No, it's a moral statement. That's the only reason anyone cares about it, including you. If the US came out and said "We recognize that Jerusalem is the place where the Israeli government in fact spends its time" no one would care. The dispute is over the implicit moral statement behind recognition (Israel has the right to Jerusalem), not some trivial matter of fact.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Let me get this straight....
Declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = mere statement of fact
Not declaring that Jerusalem is their capital = moral statement against them
...?
No, saying nothing is nothing; coming out with a statement either way is a moral statement. If Obama had come out and announced that the US does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital, he'd have been expressing moral support the Palestinians retaking Jerusalem, just as Trump's recent statement is moral support for the Israelis' retention of Jerusalem.
Yes because THEY are the ones who decide where their capital is, THEY have made the moral statement when they declared Jerusalem their capital, we are simply complying with the determination THEY made and which it is their right to make. (If they make a "wrong" determination that is their responsibility)
Yes because that is defying their determination, the determination that it is THEIR right to make.
The status quo was NOT "saying nothing" we have declared for a long time that Tel Aviv was their capital in contradiction of their determination that Jerusalem is their capital, which it is NOT our right to do.
What would be a moral statement on our part?
Declaring that Jerusalem shouldn't be divided and that a future Palestine can't have it's capital in E. Jerusalem.
Trump did NOT do this.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
It's not about what THEY did, it's about what WE just did, and what SOME OF US are now endorsing, or not.
Anyway, on a slightly different note, suppose that two years ago the US formally recognized Raqqa as the capital of ISIS.
....any objections to that?
See above, I don't think I have anything more to say about itYes because that is defying their determination, the determination that it is THEIR right to make.
The status quo was NOT "saying nothing" we have declared for a long time that Tel Aviv was their capital in contradiction of their determination that Jerusalem is their capital, which it is NOT our right to do.
What would be a moral statement on our part?
Declaring that Jerusalem shouldn't be divided and that a future Palestine can't have it's capital in E. Jerusalem.
Trump did NOT do this.
What we did takes place in the context of what they did, see my explanation above.
I would object to recognizing them as a sovereign state let alone recognizing their capital since necessity did not require it and they are morally reprehensible. (they were NOT in undisputed control of their territory, Syria still existed and their had been no end to their revolutionary war)
We may be at a philosophical impasse.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
I figured you say something along those lines (and I'm not sure that that's really true, but I'm not going to argue about it).
Anyway, my reason for notendorsing their activitiesrecognizing their capital would be more straightforeward: they're evil.
They were doing harmful things and didn't need any PR help to keep doing those things for longer.
I think soWe may be at a philosophical impasse.
Last edited by Swordsmyth; 12-09-2017 at 11:03 PM.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Arabs Should Consider Economic Sanctions on U.S. Over Jerusalem: Lebanon
"The decision has no legal effect ... it deepens tension, ignites anger and threatens to plunge region into more violence and chaos," the Arab League said at 3 a.m. local time after hours of meetings that began on Saturday evening.
It said it would seek a U.N. Security Council resolution rejecting the U.S. move.
Lebanon's Foreign Minister Gebran Bassil said during the emergency meeting that Arab nations should consider imposing economic sanctions against the United States to prevent it moving its Israel embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.
"Pre-emptive measures (must be) taken ... beginning with diplomatic measures, then political, then economic and financial sanctions," he said, without giving specific details.
The Arab League statement made no mention of economic sanctions.
More at: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...usalem-lebanon
Please kick us out of the UN, then we can all laugh as it collapses without our money and we are better off without it.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
It's any action by our rulers which tends to undermine life/property.
If unrecognizing red China would accomplish anything to that end (saving lives/property), I'd be all for it - not seeing the argument though.
For Israel, this has already caused deaths, injuries, and property damage which otherwise would not have occurred, for a gain of nothing.
Rioting Arabs caused deaths, injuries, and property damage, this doesn't even affect what they claim to want:
The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”
More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html
The truth is that they don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist, but they are too weak or cowardly to accomplish those things on their own so they attempt to manipulate/blackmail the rest of the world into doing it for them.
I do not believe we should do their dirty work for them.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
...which was entirely predictable and wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Meanwhile, there is no gain at all on the other side of the ledger.
It's the geopolitical equivalent of "fire!" in a crowded theatre.
IrrelevantThe irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
This entire global 'discussion' on Jerusalem is custom made for them (Orthodox Jewery)
Their activism has been always been trying raise the public awareness
to RECOGNIZE 'Zionism' as a distinct and separate entity APART from themselves.
That's been their #1 frustration: to distinguish Zionism from Judaism.
Most Christians from experience do not see/understand the difference.
I could go into a whole treatise here but I'll just cut to the chase:
I believe everything from 1948 forward was a man-made 'false' re-gathering..
and what's emanated from it since is a spiritual Frankenstein.
It's 'fruit' is rotten.
What/where they claim as their 'capital' makes no difference to me.
I honestly don't see it as a 'fulfillment' of anything even CLOSE
to what the Scriptures describes as that 'event'...
when the LORD (himself) shall gather his people.
Bottom line 4 me: It's a political entity not a spiritual one...
It's just as malevolent as any other government on Earth.
It could even suffer destruction.... with every Christian's jaw hanging slack.
but
not one jot nor tittle will be out of place because of it. Selah.
Good for them, I wish them luck.
I think you are close enough to right that where my opinion differs makes no difference, but I do think that GOD allowed the state of Israel to be created perhaps as punishment for the muslims and perhaps to be used as a placeholder for HIS Israel that he will yet bring forth.
And just like every other sovereign nation it gets to decide the location of it's capital within the territory it controls and we have to deal with it.
AMEN, GODs work can't be frustrated, if it were necessary he would use biblical level miracles to create HIS Israel in spite of whatever happened to this one, but he may chose to reform this Israel into HIS.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Sunday...
Western Jerusalem
1st stabbing incident since Trump announcement, Stab Attack on Israeli guard in central bus station in Western Jerusalem, Palestinian arrested
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQr6LbeU8AEsVo_.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQr6LbPVQAEM3ut.jpg:large
Lebanon
Intense clashes breakout in front of US Embassy in Beirut
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...mbassy-beirut/
Lebanon: US embassy protesters blasted by water cannon and tear gas
Protesters have clashed with Lebanese security forces outside the US embassy near the capital, Beirut, the latest demonstration against US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
https://www.rt.com/news/412627-us-em...mpression=true
Protesters have clashed with Lebanese security forces outside the US embassy near the capital, Beirut, the latest demonstration against US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42298782
Turkey
Last edited by goldenequity; 12-10-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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