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Thread: Why Rand will vote FOR the tax-cut bill

  1. #1

    Post Why Rand will vote FOR the tax-cut bill

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  3. #2

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    One of the fundamental problems in Washington is the attitude that the money that people make belongs to the government. That’s why you hear arguments about how much a tax cut “costs,” or big government advocates disingenuously and breathlessly complaining about the people who pay taxes getting a tax cut.
    I believe it is the other way around. Our default position should be that the money you earn belongs to you, and government has to justify why it should take it from you.
    Sounds just like Ron.

    Anyway, I'm not very excited about the tax cut.

    I'm never very excited about tax cuts unless they come with spending cuts (spending being the true burden).

    That said, there's nothing wrong with supporting this.

    ....especially for Rand, who we all know wants massive spending cuts.

    ...contra, say, almost every other GOPer, who'd be fine with punting on spending forever and doing politically easier tax cuts instead.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  4. #3

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    One way to look at it is that tax cuts make it somewhat more likely there will be spending cuts in the future. I think the prospect of raising taxes is much more poisonous politically than cutting spending.

    I just hope Rand can vote for it without drowning to death from his own lungs.
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  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Sounds just like Ron.

    Anyway, I'm not very excited about the tax cut.

    I'm never very excited about tax cuts unless they come with spending cuts (spending being the true burden).

    That said, there's nothing wrong with supporting this.

    ....especially for Rand, who we all know wants massive spending cuts.

    ...contra, say, almost every other GOPer, who'd be fine with punting on spending forever and doing politically easier tax cuts instead.
    It's fine to cut taxes without cutting spending. The federal government can just finance it with debt. As long as noone ever has to pay back the debt, then everyone wins
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    One way to look at it is that tax cuts make it somewhat more likely there will be spending cuts in the future. I think the prospect of raising taxes is much more poisonous politically than cutting spending.

    I just hope Rand can vote for it without drowning to death from his own lungs.
    The Bush and Reagan tax cuts did not lead to any cuts in spending. They only added to the debt. Nor did they spur the economy or add jobs or raise incomes. The money to pay for these tax cuts will come from the government borrowing money. Spending cuts should come before, not after, tax cuts. But budget cuts are more difficult politically than tax cuts.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The Bush and Reagan tax cuts did not lead to any cuts in spending. They only added to the debt. Nor did they spur the economy or add jobs or raise incomes. The money to pay for these tax cuts will come from the government borrowing money. Spending cuts should come before, not after, tax cuts. But budget cuts are more difficult politically than tax cuts.
    What's wrong with government borrowing money?

    Without government debt, the USD wouldn't even exist.

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    What's wrong with government borrowing money?

    Without government debt, the USD wouldn't even exist.
    Who are we borrowing from? A printing press?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Who are we borrowing from? A printing press?
    Borrowing from the computer that creates treasures
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  10. #9

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    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ur-national-s/

    Rand Paul: Debt is biggest threat to our national security

    Sen. Rand Paul says that the number one threat to U.S. national security is the country’s debt, but that a balance can be struck between cutting spending and adequately funding the military.

    “There are people on our side, and I think they’re absolutely wrong — there are conservatives who are, ‘I’ll spend anything and I don’t care if it bankrupts the world, I’ll spend trillions of dollars, we’ve got to have it’ — that’s wrong,” the Kentucky Republican said Tuesday at the annual Wall Street Journal CEO Council gathering. “Because you will be a weaker country and you will be more vulnerable and I truly believe that the number one threat to our national security is our debt.”

    Mr. Paul has carved out a less hawkish foreign policy perspective than many other potential GOP presidential contenders in 2016, but is also trying to shirk the isolationist label of some critics are trying to pin on him.

    “What does separate me from some conservatives is I am not all in, everything, no matter what — I’m saying we spend what we can from what comes in,” he said. “We bring in 3 trillion dollars every year, we spend 3 trillion dollars. That’s very simple, [but] a very radical notion up here.”

    He said everybody in the business world understands that they spend what comes in or if they borrow money, they borrow it on a “rational basis.”
    Voting for the tax bill will add another couple $trillion. What is another couple $trillion? (and that is on top of the current budget deficits).

    It isn't a "fiscally responsible" move.

    If debt doesn't matter then spending doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 02:40 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Borrowing from the computer that creates treasures
    Progress! We are spending like a drunken sailor in order to be able to borrow money in the future from the people who got them from us in the past in order to be able to keep spending like a drunken sailor. I think it might work as long these people will play with us and pretend they down own us. Can I have another shot of Everclear?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    One way to look at it is that tax cuts make it somewhat more likely there will be spending cuts in the future.
    "Starve the beast" makes sense in the abstract, but in practice (at least in the land of the world reserve currency), it doesn't seem to work.

    I think the prospect of raising taxes is much more poisonous politically than cutting spending.
    Just the opposite, I'd say.

    Tax cuts provide immediate, visible, gains to everybody - very easy sell. Spending cuts inflict immediate, visible harm to people on the take, with no immediately, visible benefits to anyone - very tough sell. Tax cuts and spending increases are easy, because they align with people's self-interest. Spending cuts are hard, because they pretty much have to rely on ideological motivation. Even tax increases (coupled with spending increases) are easier than pure spending cuts, since with the former all you have to do is make sure the winners can outvote the losers.

    I just hope Rand can vote for it without drowning to death from his own lungs.
    On that we can certainly agree.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  13. #12

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    http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36...e-gop-tax-bill

    Poll: Majority of small businesses oppose GOP tax bill


    A majority of small businesses in a new survey opposes the GOP tax plan.

    A Public Policy Polling poll, released by Businesses for Responsible Tax Reform, a group opposed to the GOP tax bills, finds 51 percent of small businesses are against the plan. About one-third, 34 percent, support the GOP tax plan.

    Slightly more than 50 percent of the small business owners surveyed think the GOP tax plan supports large corporations over small businesses.

    A majority of small business owners also said the plan will benefit wealthy corporations the most.
    The survey was conducted from Nov. 17 to 18 by the Democratic firm. It included responses from 794 small business owners.

    Senate Republicans are rushing to pass their tax plan this week, after it was voted out of the Senate Finance Committee along party lines.

    Republicans can lose only two GOP senators, if every Democrat votes no, if they want to get the legislation passed. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) has announced his opposition to the plan.

    Several GOP senators have raised concerns about the impact the tax plan could have on the deficit.


    If the Senate passes its plan this week, Republicans will still need to work out a deal in conference committee to reconcile the differences between the Senate version and the House bill passed before Thanksgiving, and pass that final conference legislation.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 02:53 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  14. #13

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    Supporting the tax bill is moving away from Rand's stated goal of achieving a balanced budget.

    (Rand did submit a balanced budget proposal a couple years ago- it assumed that tax revenues rose 26% during the time of his budget to be able to achieve the numbers by the final year).
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 02:55 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Progress! We are spending like a drunken sailor in order to be able to borrow money in the future from the people who got them from us in the past in order to be able to keep spending like a drunken sailor. I think it might work as long these people will play with us and pretend they down own us. Can I have another shot of Everclear?
    BTW, thank God for the derivatives! The other people would not have enough money to lend us otherwise. Whoo, hoo!
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Supporting the tax bill is moving away from Rand's stated goal of achieving a balanced budget.
    The talented Mr. Zippy.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Nor did they spur the economy or add jobs or raise incomes. The money to pay for these tax cuts will come from the government borrowing money.
    The 1980s and 90s marked the greatest period of wealth creation in human history. It seems pretty likely that lowering the top rate from 70 to 28 played at least some role in that. The tax cuts were good policy and worked.

    The Bush tax cuts went into effect between 2002 and 2004. I am not sure why you think tax cuts didn't spur the economy. There was a massive bubble during that time. People forget the economy boomed during the middle part of Bush's presidency.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 11-27-2017 at 03:27 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    The 1980s and 90s marked the greatest period of wealth creation in human history. It seems pretty likely that lowering the top rate from 70 to 28 played at least some role in that. The tax cuts were good policy and worked.

    The Bush tax cuts went into effect between 2002 and 2004. I am not sure why you think tax cuts didn't spur the economy. There was a massive bubble during that time. People forget the economy boomed during the middle part of Bush's presidency.
    The economy was average following the Bush tax cuts- not above average. GDP growth rate actually went down. Reagan tax cuts were followed within a couple years with what was at the time the highest tax INCREASES (because they were concerned about the rising deficit from the cuts).



    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 03:37 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Supporting the tax bill is moving away from Rand's stated goal of achieving a balanced budget.
    So you are saying that Randal is sacrificing is making a short term sacrifice away from his long term goal, in order to let me keep more of my money? I can live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    (Rand did submit a balanced budget proposal a couple years ago- it assumed that tax revenues rose 26% during the time of his budget to be able to achieve the numbers by the final year).
    He has submitted many such proposals, over the course of many years. Fact is neither party wants any cuts and he seems to have realized it wont happen and decided that tax cuts are better than nothing. maybe it will help his supporters last a little bit longer or prepare for the collapse better.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So you are saying that Randal is sacrificing is making a short term sacrifice away from his long term goal, in order to let me keep more of my money? I can live with that.



    He has submitted many such proposals, over the course of many years. Fact is neither party wants any cuts and he seems to have realized it wont happen and decided that tax cuts are better than nothing. maybe it will help his supporters last a little bit longer or prepare for the collapse better.
    One cannot be a fiscal conservative and then vote to add $2 trillion more to the debt. It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending. Will it put more money in your pocket? If you make under $70k a year, you will be paying more in taxes by the end of the time period. If you are a typical family of three, you will be paying more right away. (if the Obamacare provision passes, it also estimates that your health premiums will rise by at least ten percent).
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    One cannot be a fiscal conservative and then vote to add $2 trillion more to the debt. It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending.
    Sure you can. You can feel that keeping the govt from stealing as much money from its citizens is more important than continuing to fail at stopping drunken ticks from sucking the host dry. It's a grey world. Somebody is gonna eat that debt in the end no matter what he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Will it put more money in your pocket? If you make under $70k a year, you will be paying more in taxes by the end of the time period. If you are a typical family of three, you will be paying more right away. (if the Obamacare provision passes, it also estimates that your health premiums will rise by at least ten percent).
    The numbers I've seen show me saving some money. Not a lot, but enough for a kick ass vacation or a boat or maybe even some more savings to stash away. I don't see my premiums going up any more than Obamacare already raised them.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The economy was average following the Bush tax cuts- not above average. GDP growth rate actually went down. Reagan tax cuts were followed within a couple years with what was at the time the highest tax INCREASES (because they were concerned about the rising deficit from the cuts).
    Marginal rates are what matter. Reagan lowered the top rate from 70% to 50% then to 28%.

    You didn't link to a chart of GDP growth. You linked to a 10 year moving average.

    The four years following the Bush tax cuts had real GDP growth of 2.04%, 4.36%, 3.12%, and 3.03%. http://www.multpl.com/us-real-gdp-gr.../table/by-year For perspective, there hasn't been a year over 3% real growth since.

    That doesn't mean Bush tax cuts were the reason for the growth but it does mean you shouldn't so decisively state that the tax cuts had no effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    One cannot be a fiscal conservative and then vote to add $2 trillion more to the debt. It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending. .
    That last sentence is factually wrong. A $2 trillion hike in government spending means more resources are diverted to the unproductive government sector. A tax cut doesn't divert any additional resource to the public sector. It is a wash. Instead of more taxes, it is paid for with more debt.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 11-27-2017 at 04:03 PM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    you shouldn't so decisively deceptively state that the tax cuts had no effect.
    ftfy
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Marginal rates are what matter. Reagan lowered the top rate from 70% to 50% then to 28%.

    You didn't link to a chart of GDP growth. You linked to a 10 year moving average.

    The four years following the Bush tax cuts had real GDP growth of 2.04%, 4.36%, 3.12%, and 3.03%. http://www.multpl.com/us-real-gdp-gr.../table/by-year For perspective, there hasn't been a year over 3% real growth since.

    That doesn't mean Bush tax cuts were the reason for the growth but it does mean you shouldn't so decisively state that the tax cuts had no effect.



    That last sentence is factually wrong. A $2 trillion hike in government spending means more resources are diverted to the unproductive government sector. A tax cut doesn't divert any additional resource to the public sector. It is a wash. Instead of more taxes, it is paid for with more debt.
    Borrowing the money to pay for the tax cuts does take money away from the private sector.

    Prior to the 2001 recession, growth was running over 4%. From your same link:

    2000: 4.1%
    1999: 4.69%
    1998: 5.0%
    1997: 4.39%
    1996: 4.45%

    The rates after the tax cut were declining. The economy growing more slowly. And that was during the housing bubble (roughly 1999- 2006)

    2003: 4.36%
    2004: 3.12%
    2005: 3.03%
    2006: 2.39%
    2007: 1.87%
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 04:33 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Borrowing the money to pay for the tax cuts does take money away from the private sector.
    No it doesn't. Taking $100 out through taxes or taking $100 through debt is the still $100 taken out.

    The difference is a tax cut can change behavior and raise productivity. Lowering the top rate will make moving operations to lower tax jurisdictions a less attractive choice.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Taking $100 out through taxes or taking $100 through debt is the still $100 taken out.
    Yes, that is still taking money from the public sector. As I said.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Yes, that is still taking money from the public sector. As I said.
    What?

    Here is what you said.

    "It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending."

    It is wrong to say a deficit produced by tax cuts is the same as one produced spending hikes.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    What?

    Here is what you said.

    "It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending."

    It is wrong to say a deficit produced by tax cuts is the same as one produced spending hikes.
    I was referring to their impact on the debt. Spend $2 trillion more or earn $2 trillion less, you are still an additional $2 trillion more in the hole than you would have been otherwise. Same "net effect" is the term I used.

    One cannot be a fiscal conservative and then vote to add $2 trillion more to the debt. It is the same net effect as $2 trillion more in spending.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I was referring to their impact on the debt. Spend $2 trillion more or earn $2 trillion less, you are still an additional $2 trillion more in the hole than you would have been otherwise. Same "net effect" is the term I used.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Fake news. Rothschild is only worth about $20 billion. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetw...ild-net-worth/
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-27-2017 at 04:37 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I was referring to their impact on the debt. Spend $2 trillion more or earn $2 trillion less, you are still an additional $2 trillion more in the hole than you would have been otherwise. Same "net effect" is the term I used.
    It isn't true they have the same net effect on the deficit. Growing the deficit through smart tax policy is perfectly consistent with fiscal conservatism if it creates more growth than you otherwise would have had. Increased government spending takes people away from the private sector which is the productive sector. Lower productivity will mean lower growth. Increasing the deficit through government spending will yield a greater deficit over time due to slower growth than the tax cuts.,

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