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Thread: The driverless revolution may exact a political price

  1. #1

    Exclamation The driverless revolution may exact a political price

    Just take your UBI card and go away, OK?

    Keep in mind, UBI, in the cashless society, will not purchase government disapproved items.

    Everything from a Big Mac to a Beretta will be blocked.

    Enjoy your future, slaves.



    The driverless revolution may exact a political price

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...121-story.html

    In its race to embrace driverless vehicles, Washington has cleared away regulatory hurdles for auto companies and brushed aside consumer warnings about the risk of crashes and hacking.

    But at a recent hearing, lawmakers absorbed an economic argument that illustrated how the driverless revolution they are encouraging could backfire politically, particularly in Trump country.

    It was the tale of a successful, long-distance beer run.

    A robotic truck coasted driverless 120 miles down Interstate 25 in Colorado on its way to deliver 51,744 cans of Budweiser. Not everyone at the hearing was impressed by the milestone, particularly the secretary-treasurer of the Teamsters, whose nearly 600,000 unionized drivers played no small roll in President Trump’s victory last year.

    Driverless vehicles threaten to dramatically reduce America’s 1.7-million trucking jobs. It is the front end of a wave of automation that technologists and economists have been warning for years will come crashing down on America’s political order. Some predict it could rival the impact of the economic globalization and the resulting off-shoring of jobs that propelled Trump’s victory in the presidential election.

    “This is one of the biggest policy changes of our generation,” said Sam Loesche, head of government affairs for the Teamsters. “This is not just about looking after the health and welfare of America’s workers, but also their livelihoods.”

    Washington isn’t ready for it. The Trump White House already has indicated it sees it as some future administration’s problem. Silicon Valley remains in shock over Treasury Secretary Steven T. Mnuchin’s remark in the spring that economic fallout from this type of automation is 50 to 100 years off and “not even on my radar screen.”

    “I don’t think anybody there is thinking about this seriously,” said Martin Ford, author of “Rise of the Robots: Technology and the Threat of a Jobless Future.” “They are still looking at this as futuristic and not having an impact and not politically toxic. … Once people start seeing the vehicles on the roads and jobs disappearing because of them, things will quickly become very different.”

    The arrival of that reckoning is getting accelerated by Washington’s bipartisan excitement for self-driving technology, one of the few policy issues advancing. New Trump administration regulations don’t require industry to submit certain safety assessments, leaving it voluntary. And legislation — already approved in the House and expected to pass in the Senate — strips authority from states to set many of their own safety guidelines.

    Objections raised by the National Governor’s Assn. and the National Council of State Legislatures don’t seem to be slowing things down. Consumer groups are dismayed.

    “We understand how beneficial this technology can be, but we also understand that if we screw this up, human lives will be lost,” said Jackie Gillan, head of Advocates for Highway and Auto Safety. “We are at a time when there are already record recalls of vehicles because of safety defects. Why are we trusting these companies to do the right thing?”

    Lobbying from the Teamsters succeeded in stripping commercial vehicles from the rapidly advancing congressional action. Automated commercial trucks would not get the exemptions to state and many federal rules as robot cars would in the legislation.

    The concession — heralded as a big victory by the Teamsters — was met with a shrug by many in the automation world. They don’t expect it to slow the arrival of fleets of self-driving trucks on the road. The momentum is already there, they say, and agency regulators are working with the companies to get their prototypes highway-ready.

    “It was a political sign that there is fear” about the impact of the trucks, said Bryant Walker Smith, a law professor at the University of South Carolina who researches vehicle automation. “But it is not in the long term going to hamper their deployment.”

    How soon the potential for economic disruption spills over into politics is a matter of debate among technologists and futurists. But they agree it will be much sooner than Mnuchin predicts, and possibly as soon as 2020, when Trump would be up for reelection.

    Trump claimed a bigger share of the labor vote than any Republican since Ronald Reagan, winning 43% of it nationwide, exit polls show. In Ohio, he beat Hillary Clinton commandingly in union households.

    Hanging onto those votes is not as simple as tapping the brakes on driverless technology. Such a move would have its own economic fallout, as companies developing the vehicles could merely move abroad.

    But if the White House and Congress don’t start addressing the disruption that self-driving vehicles and related automation will cause, economists and political scientists warn Washington may one day face the kind of voter backlash seen in the 2016 election. So far, the government is showing itself just as disconnected as it was to the troubles created for the same voters by globalization.

    “Regardless of whether this creates a world where everyone has jobs or few people do, those jobs will be different,” Smith said. “Congress is not effectively discussing this. We don’t sufficiently understand this disruption.”

    At a California start-up called Embark, there already are indications of how trucking jobs are about to change. The company has in recent weeks started test-runs in which it is using self-driving trucks to ship smart refrigerators from a warehouse in Texas to a distribution center in Palm Springs. There is a driver in the cab, but for the bulk of the ride, when the truck is on the 10 Freeway, that person is not doing the driving. Eventually, there could be nobody in the cab for legs of the trip.

    Embark’s head of public policy, Jonny Morris, joins the American Trucking Assn. in offering an optimistic vision — one in which truck drivers still will have jobs and their quality of life will be much improved. Instead of making long hauls thousands of miles, Morris said, they could stay in their communities and handle the more-complicated short hops at the beginning and end of the trips, along with loading and unloading. “We believe automation can help improve the number and quality of jobs,” he said.

    Teamsters executives are skeptical, particularly as many pilot programs exhibit a diminished role for blue-collar workers. Volvo, for example, boasts how the autonomous garbage truck it developed doesn’t need a driver in the cab to navigate the route, freeing up that person to load the trash bins. Two jobs appear to become one.

    Many of the new positions created by such technology look nothing like the stable trucking jobs that are a staple of blue-collar America. They involve coding, data analysis and operation of complicated computer systems. The training is sophisticated and costly. A college degree could become a prerequisite.

    (Lol- yeah right, the "new economy". The few jobs that require any real human oversight will be outsourced to cheap labor overseas. - AF)

    Frost says the White House and Congress better start playing closer attention to what self-driving technology means for truckers and others displaced by the new industry.

    “If we don’t figure out a way to solve this,” he said, “there is going to be a backlash.”
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee



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  3. #2
    2 or 3 deaths from driverless car crashes will squelch the enthusiasm for this silliness.

    Getting from point A to point B is easy. Reacting to the stupidness of everyone around you, that's the hard part.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    2 or 3 deaths from driverless car crashes will squelch the enthusiasm for this silliness.

    Getting from point A to point B is easy. Reacting to the stupidness of everyone around you, that's the hard part.
    That's why human driving will be banned.

    Almost without exception, the crashes of driverless vehicles have been caused by human drivers.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    2 or 3 deaths from driverless car crashes will squelch the enthusiasm for this silliness.

    Getting from point A to point B is easy. Reacting to the stupidness of everyone around you, that's the hard part.
    Would you board a...

    ...Plane without pilots ?
    ...Crewship without a crew controlling it ?

    I mean.. Sure, in most cases a computer will be PERFECTLY CAPABLE of bringing you from point A to point B safely. However, the very reason we still have pilots in airplanes even though it's completely possible to do without is because computers aren't infallible. First, they are programmed by humans. Secondly, they rely on electronic components that can fail. Third, as long as there is no artificial intelligence that's superior to ourselves, everything relies on parameters, computers go nuts when stuff doesn't work for them, humans have very different inputs and can deal better with these kinds of situations... As said before, this is why we still have pilots.
    "I am a bird"

  6. #5
    They can waste billions fighting it, and possibly slow it down a few years, that's about it.

    We are talking about Trillions of dollars here, not billions.
    1. food delivery drivers. (24/7) nearly everywhere for almost no additional cost.
    2. Retail to Home delivery 24/7 nearly everywhere (new application)
    3. Trucking traditional becoming far more efficient, with 24/7 vehicle movement.
    4. 24 hour UPS/Fedex/USPS delivery possible.
    5 24/7 vehicle upon request nearly anywhere. No more cabbies or uber drivers.
    6. EMergency vehicles.
    7. Automatically patrolling police cars for "presence" and monitoring trouble areas.
    8. Complete automation of Farming.
    9. Automated lawn care service. A Self Driving Truck will drive Self Driving lawn mowers from location to location. lol... sounds crazy but totally possible.
    Etc..., Etc...,ETc.................

    It would have been easier to stop the first cars, than it'll be to stop the self driving vehicles coming. TRILLIONS at stake, and you have to stop it everywhere worldwide, or else you lose anyway, as say the US stopped it, and china adopted it, there efficiency would increase dramatically, and you'd lose anyway.

    Some fights are worth fighting this isn't one of them. They will lose. The most they are going to get is some additional red tape for the self-driving cars to traverse, and they will traverse it.

    IT's done. IT's even more obvious than the internet would be huge eventually when I got my first dial up connection that charged by the minute.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    As said before, this is why we still have pilots.
    Not for long.

    Once this generation dies off, there will be no qualms about flying on a pilotless plane or a driverless car.

    Millions of people already travel on "engineer" less trains, trams, subways, and "people movers" of all types.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    They can waste billions fighting it, and possibly slow it down a few years, that's about it.

    We are talking about Trillions of dollars here, not billions.
    1. food delivery drivers. (24/7) nearly everywhere for almost no additional cost.
    2. Retail to Home delivery 24/7 nearly everywhere (new application)
    3. Trucking traditional becoming far more efficient, with 24/7 vehicle movement.
    4. 24 hour UPS/Fedex/USPS delivery possible.
    5 24/7 vehicle upon request nearly anywhere. No more cabbies or uber drivers.
    6. EMergency vehicles.
    7. Automatically patrolling police cars for "presence" and monitoring trouble areas.
    8. Complete automation of Farming.
    9. Automated lawn care service. A Self Driving Truck will drive Self Driving lawn mowers from location to location. lol... sounds crazy but totally possible.
    Etc..., Etc...,ETc.................

    It would have been easier to stop the first cars, than it'll be to stop the self driving vehicles coming. TRILLIONS at stake, and you have to stop it everywhere worldwide, or else you lose anyway, as say the US stopped it, and china adopted it, there efficiency would increase dramatically, and you'd lose anyway.

    Some fights are worth fighting this isn't one of them. They will lose. The most they are going to get is some additional red tape for the self-driving cars to traverse, and they will traverse it.

    IT's done. IT's even more obvious than the internet would be huge eventually when I got my first dial up connection that charged by the minute.
    Yup.

    Enjoy your UBI.

  9. #8
    Spending billions of dollars modding interstates into railroads? That's essentially what driverless interstates will be, the concepts are so similar its plagiarism.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's why human driving will be banned.

    Almost without exception, the crashes of driverless vehicles have been caused by human drivers.
    good point.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  12. #10
    No thank you very much.


    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  13. #11
    Just wait until there are enough on the road to cause someone to hack them and causes a driverless day of destruction.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Just wait until there are enough on the road to cause someone to hack them and causes a driverless day of destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just wait until hackers hire out to make the car do it as a murder for hire scheme, who will be able to say it wasn't just another GPS glitch?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post



    Destination rendition site #666

    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Also, that scene in Logan where they stop to help get the horses off the highway, before the next driverless freight truck smashes them all. That was a good movie.

  16. #14
    I don't see this working outside areas where all the variables are extremely well controlled. Some nasty weather or a downed tree or 2 and your robocar is useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I don't see this working outside areas where all the variables are extremely well controlled. Some nasty weather or a downed tree or 2 and your robocar is useless.
    As for trees, they generally aren't a problem on interstates. Leave inclement weather to chemtrails stratospheric injection.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    As for trees, they generally aren't a problem on interstates. Leave inclement weather to chemtrails stratospheric injection.
    Right. Interstates don't have a lot of variables most of the year. The surface and side streets that people use the vast majority of the time though, aren't like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Right. Interstates don't have a lot of variables most of the year. The surface and side streets that people use the vast majority of the time though, aren't like that.
    Once people are used to driverless freight, I bet they'll open those roads too.

    There are so many circuits and redundant systems in cars, the driver's become obsolete. The starter motor, automatic transmission, cruise control, collision detection... eliminating the driver's finally in the cards. Its all about taking individual agency and easing us into lives designed by directors of the board. That's what the people want.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by shakey1 View Post
    No thank you very much.




  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I don't see this working outside areas where all the variables are extremely well controlled. Some nasty weather or a downed tree or 2 and your robocar is useless.
    There are whole legions of geniuses, with more degrees than a thermometer, working on this.

    Some rain or downed trees are not going to stand in the way of this.

  23. #20
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-28-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  24. #21
    n/m
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Forgetting the safety concerns ... just dealing with the labor impact (union and non-union):
    1) Did bank tellers stop the advance of ATMs?
    2) Did grocery store cashiers stop the advance of do it yourself checkout lanes?
    3) Will fast food workers stop the advance of food ordering kiosks?

    What businesses consider is which option does it cheaper, faster, better

    === Edited to add ===
    On the grocery store checkout process: the next step is to RFID tag each item in the store. Then the customer simply rolls their cart past the detector which rings everything up automatically. The customer pays with credit card and bags the items himself. You'll probably even have robots rounding up carts in the parking lot.
    Yeah, but most people are concerned about safety wrt to robocars. Not your typical Ludditism, IMO...
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Yeah, but most people are concerned about safety wrt to robocars. Not your typical Ludditism, IMO...
    In the case of aviation, it will be a huge cost to try to automate getting an aircraft to be loaded and safely airborne to fly to its destination and the unloaded and serviced, etc. The infrastructure will be in enormous and very costly.

    All a competing airline has to do is advertised that they have a pilot or two on board for their passenger safety. That airline will not have to spend the huge amount of capital to retrofit their aircraft and supporting systems for the small cost of having a human on board.

    How do you think the passengers and the market will choose/respond?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

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  27. #24
    Man, I feel like addressing this from so many angles.

    1. Economics: More efficiency always increases wealth and prosperity. This is a good thing. Don't worry about jobs going away - wants are unlimited. With the extra resources we'll have, more jobs will be created - even though their unidentified now. Automobiles killed the farriers, but I don't see anyone arguing against them anymore. Read post #20

    2. Unions: Are we really arguing that unions should work to stifle innovation? In RPF?

    3. Regulations: This is one of the things I'm most excited about! Our current regulatory state makes no sense in a high tech world. (It makes no sense at any time, but people are beginning to recognize its futility) Looking at the future, it seems that people will begin to realize that regulations are an impediment to progress. That is HUGE! Technology has always made regulation pointless; now it's beginning to happen in hyperspeed! Are we really arguing for stricter regulation in RPF??

    4. Safety: Once these things get on the road, they will learn on their own and become safer and safer. My main worry is that it will be incredibly easy to create a roadblock... Just walk out onto a road and all the cars will stop. Of course, they'll reroute themselves and let every other vehicle know how to reroute, but you have to worry about calls for "traffic interference" laws.

    4B. Creepiness: This leads us to what AF fears... Those traffic interference penalties. It's not hard to envision steep penalties for anyone causing an accident with a robocar (after all, most of them will be owned by corporate fleets - and they will have deep pockets). Eventually, insurance carriers will run up the rates for human drivers to the point that most people just decide that it's not worth it to drive manually. Not to mention that when you use a car, your travel will be tracked and logged and will be used to gather as much info about you as possible for all sorts of uses.

    But ultimately, I think we have to ask whether this type of technology brings more liberty or less. Obviously, things are going to change, but things always change. It's just a matter of what you choose to focus on. I choose to take the positive outlook. The internet opened up a line of communication and commerce like never before. All in all, I think it's resulting in more liberty worldwide. I don't want to shut it down just because every keystroke is being monitored. You take the good and try to fight the bad. It's what we do. But we don't have to shun technology - it's really a godsend.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's why human driving will be banned.

    Almost without exception, the crashes of driverless vehicles have been caused by human drivers.
    ^^this^^

    and I wager insurance rates would drop. Yep, banned, just like gas engines eventually will be banned to save the environment, reduce pollution and save taxpayer money to treat asthmatics on Obamacare.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  30. #26

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Not for long.

    Once this generation dies off, there will be no qualms about flying on a pilotless plane or a driverless car.

    Millions of people already travel on "engineer" less trains, trams, subways, and "people movers" of all types.
    exactly, we can launch an ICBM half a world away and have it land in a trash can but somehow im to believe an airplane is incapable of this same task.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    In the case of aviation, it will be a huge cost to try to automate getting an aircraft to be loaded and safely airborne to fly to its destination and the unloaded and serviced, etc. The infrastructure will be in enormous and very costly.

    All a competing airline has to do is advertised that they have a pilot or two on board for their passenger safety. That airline will not have to spend the huge amount of capital to retrofit their aircraft and supporting systems for the small cost of having a human on board.

    How do you think the passengers and the market will choose/respond?
    The cockpit door was closed when I last boarded a plane. It could have been flown by a robot without me knowing.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    exactly, we can launch an ICBM half a world away and have it land in a trash can but somehow im to believe an airplane is incapable of this same task.
    Not quiite that accurate yet. But do you appreciate the costs? We are not talking about ballistic missiles with some later stage guidance. We fly many times that amount on a daily basis in a much more dynamic environment.
    Last edited by Danke; 12-17-2017 at 04:41 AM. Reason: Typo
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not quiite that accurate yet. But do you appreciate the costs? We are not talking about ballistic missles with some later stage guidance. We fly many times that amount on a daily basis in a much more dynamic environment.
    I suspect that planes with people will probably be one of the last areas where robotic AI guidance will finally take-off (pun intended). When it does come to flight it will start with cargo transport. No passengers needed on cargo flights. Cost will eventually be driven down by economic forces and economies of scale.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

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