View Poll Results: Should Libertarians Ignore The Culture War?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it's a distraction that only hurts our cause.

    6 85.71%
  • No, cuck, MAGA! Drain the swamp!

    1 14.29%
  • No, cis-trash, Equality! Crash the patriarchy!

    0 0%
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Thread: How Libertarians Should Approach The Culture War

  1. #1

    Default How Libertarians Should Approach The Culture War

    Libertarians can only harm their cause by joining in the culture war.

    Be it Libertarian Party hipster-doofi trying to appease the SJWs, or Lew Rockwell types dog-whistling the hillbillies, the result is the same.

    Every time the news cycle is dominated by some farcical controversy about gay cakes or the decor of federal buildings or how many times Obama said "Islamic" or whatever is the nonsense du jour, that's a squandered opportunity for libertarians. The red tribe and the blue tribe aren't ever, left to their own devices, going to talk about excessive spending, taxing, regulating, printing, warring, indefinite detaining, or anything else that actually matters: not if they can get sufficient ratings/votes by playing up the culture war. If we too focus on the culture war, no one mentions the important issues.

    In years past, there was a lively intra-libertarian debate over whether the ideology should be "thin" (committed only to the NAP) or "thick" (committed to certain cultural values). At the time, it was the left libertarians who were advocating for "thickism" (all libertarians should embrace "diversity" et al), with the right libertarians defending "thinnism" (libertarianism shouldn't be polluted by the culture war). Now, post-Trump, there's nary a thinnist to be found. The former thinnists all jumped into the culture war on the right side and started writing articles about how western civilization will be saved by an obnoxious gay man yelling at college feminists...



    Thick libertarianism means a libertarianism that's become fat and bloated on the empty calories of the culture war.

    Dump the Chic-Filet and the gay cake and get back in fighting shape, I say.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 11-13-2017 at 05:14 PM.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  3. #2

    Default

    This is very insightful, thank you. I am sure a lot of people will be impressed.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  4. #3

    Default

    Culture creates politics, while we should oppose the "war on drugs" etc. we need to oppose the freaks trying to destroy our culture and morality.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4

    Default

    I would agree to a point. We aren't ever going to convince the entrenched. The faithful are impossible to poach from their pews.

    But, for those who truly do want to see greater harmony, greater racial equality, women having more of a role in society, etc. libertarianism provides the greatest philosophy for doing so. A libertarian by his or her very beliefs must be making the effort to treat all people, regardless of race, sex, religion, etc., equally because to do otherwise would be to engage in collectivism in violation of one of libertarianism's most essential beliefs, individualism. When you do so, the importance of such issues as race, sex, religion, etc. diminish. Perhaps not entirely disappear, but certainly shrink, resulting naturally in a more equitable and free society.

    This is a big reason for the emergence of Progressivism in the first place. Classical Liberalism and free market capitalism had created a society in America where even hated minorities were developing real economic and political power. And the "Progressives" in their halls of power in their ivory towers could not allow that to happen. So they began to expand the power of the State with everything from immigration regulation to minimum wage and maximum hour laws to sterilization laws as a means of limiting and breaking the developing power of women, blacks, immigrants, and the poor.

    True Liberalism, left to its own accord, will provide wealth and power for even the disadvantaged and hated by society.
    ďMaybe I forgot to mention something to you: I donít believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.Ē -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  6. #5

    Default

    I do not plan to participate in a culture war . I will continue to enjoy mine and do as I please .

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    How Libertarians Should Approach The Culture War

    I'm always wary of people who start conversations with the word should.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon...




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    But, for those who truly do want to see...women having more of a role in society, etc. libertarianism provides the greatest philosophy for doing so.

    Anybody who wants to see things for certain groups does not sound very liberty minded to me. If a person wants something, then go for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon...




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Culture creates politics, while we should oppose the "war on drugs" etc. we need to oppose the freaks trying to destroy our culture and morality.
    Greed is the prime human motivation. Economic developments are the result of greed operating within the bounds of private property. Political developments are the result of greed operating without those bounds. Culture has little effect on either (because "culture" refers to values other than and of lower priority than greed). Culture is mostly an effect, not a cause. In those cases where culture does emerge as a major political force, it spends itself quickly. The leaders of the zealous revolutionary movement get practical once they're in power. The priorities quickly shift from "[insert political slogan]" to (a) how do I stay in power, and (b) how do I make as much money as possible while in power. And this is supposing that their ideological zeal was even genuine in the first place, as opposed to being a cover for material interests, which it often is. This is true also in democracies, with their own "scheduled revolutions" every 2 or 4 years. The zeal is all on the campaign trial. Once the ideologue actually gains power, his priorities shift in the familiar way. Culture makes a lot of noise but has very little effect on the course of politics.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Greed is the prime human motivation. Economic developments are the result of greed operating within the bounds of private property. Political developments are the result of greed operating without those bounds. Culture has little effect on either (because "culture" refers to values other than and of lower priority than greed). Culture is mostly an effect, not a cause. In those cases where culture does emerge as a major political force, it spends itself quickly. The leaders of the zealous revolutionary movement get practical once they're in power. The priorities quickly shift from "[insert political slogan]" to (a) how do I stay in power, and (b) how do I make as much money as possible while in power. And this is supposing that their ideological zeal was even genuine in the first place, as opposed to being a cover for material interests, which it often is. This is true also in democracies, with their own "scheduled revolutions" every 2 or 4 years. The zeal is all on the campaign trial. Once the ideologue actually gains power, his priorities shift in the familiar way. Culture makes a lot of noise but has very little effect on the course of politics.
    Both you and Marx are wrong in claiming that economics is everything, the human psyche is complex and many things are connected.

    In our present society too much emphasis is placed on money so it is easy to make your mistake but that is one reason our political culture is as diseased as it is, if we had more emphasis on morality and less on money we would have less people trying to steal from their neighbors through government spending.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both you and Marx are wrong in claiming that economics is everything, the human psyche is complex and many things are connected.

    In our present society too much emphasis is placed on money so it is easy to make your mistake but that is one reason our political culture is as diseased as it is
    So say the moralists of every generation, since before the year zero.

    What you're fighting against is human nature, not some quirk of our own times.

    if we had more emphasis on morality and less on money we would have less people trying to steal from their neighbors through government spending.
    If people were more moral, they would be more moral. Yes, I agree.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  12. #11

    Default

    Yes, it's a distraction that only hurts our cause.
    What cause?

    Freedom, as an idea, is as dead as Julius Caesar.

    So is home and country, as is the defender of same.

    BREATHES there the man with soul so dead
    Who never to himself hath said,
    This is my own, my native land!
    Whose heart has ne’er within him burned,
    As home his footsteps he hath turned
    From wandering on a foreign strand?
    If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
    For him no minstrel raptures swell;
    High though his titles, proud his name,
    Boundless his wealth as wish can claim,
    Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
    The wretch, concentred all in self,
    Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
    And, doubly dying, shall go down
    To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
    Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.

  13. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What cause?

    Freedom, as an idea, is as dead as Julius Caesar.

    So is home and country, as is the defender of same.

    BREATHES there the man with soul so dead
    Who never to himself hath said,
    This is my own, my native land!
    Whose heart has ne’er within him burned,
    As home his footsteps he hath turned
    From wandering on a foreign strand?
    If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
    For him no minstrel raptures swell;
    High though his titles, proud his name,
    Boundless his wealth as wish can claim,
    Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
    The wretch, concentred all in self,
    Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
    And, doubly dying, shall go down
    To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
    Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.
    I don't find the "we're doomed anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument very compelling.

    The liberty movement isn't dead, it's just gotten smaller.

    That's after a period of fantastic growth from say 2007-2014.

    The cause of the recent decline was the national turn (back) toward identity politics, esp within the GOP.

    That turn was largely out of our control, but we needn't have cheered it on.

    We did.

    That was dumb.

    Let's not keep making that mistake.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So say the moralists of every generation, since before the year zero.

    What you're fighting against is human nature, not some quirk of our own times.
    Things are much worse now than they were for most of history, there were equivalent periods in history that were usually near the end of a decaying empire but just because chicken pox is "natural" doesn't mean that it is the way the human body normally functions.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If people were more moral, they would be more moral. Yes, I agree.
    And our culture has been perverted to seduce people away from morality, the only hope to restore liberty and small government is to win the "culture war" and repair the lack of morality in our society.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't find the "we're doomed anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument very compelling.

    The liberty movement isn't dead, it's just gotten smaller.

    That's after a period of fantastic growth from say 2007-2014.

    The cause of the recent decline was the national turn (back) toward identity politics, esp within the GOP.

    That turn was largely out of our control, but we needn't have cheered it on.

    We did.

    That was dumb.

    Let's not keep making that mistake.
    No, the Dems have gone from throwing gasoline on identity politics and the culture war to throwing Nukes, the right and particularly the GOP have hardly responded, they have moved from shooting blanks to using NERF guns or the occasional BB gun.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What cause?

    Freedom, as an idea, is as dead as Julius Caesar.

    So is home and country, as is the defender of same.

    BREATHES there the man with soul so dead
    Who never to himself hath said,
    This is my own, my native land!
    Whose heart has ne’er within him burned,
    As home his footsteps he hath turned
    From wandering on a foreign strand?
    If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
    For him no minstrel raptures swell;
    High though his titles, proud his name,
    Boundless his wealth as wish can claim,
    Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
    The wretch, concentred all in self,
    Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
    And, doubly dying, shall go down
    To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
    Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.
    Our cause will never die unless we let it, I would never accuse you of being a "summer soldier" but I would encourage you to remember that most causes look lost many times before they triumph.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 11-13-2017 at 07:26 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #16

    Default

    Boy this libertarian thing ya'll contemplate sure gets difficult...

    Trying to decide what a bunch of folks 'should' do in order to comply with some arbitrary ideal isn't something I want any part of.

  18. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, the Dems have gone from throwing gasoline on identity politics and the culture war to throwing Nukes, the right and particularly the GOP have hardly responded, they have moved from shooting blanks to using NERF guns or the occasional BB gun.
    I meant that it was the GOP's turn toward identity politics which especially scuttled us (we had/have no presence in the Dem Party anyway).

    For a period of time we had an environment in the GOP where people were tiring of the War of Civilizations PR campaign unleashed after 9/11, and immigration and trade hadn't yet become major political issues. The people are always looking for someone to blame for their real or imaginary problems and, c. 2007-14, the average GOPer was looking at Washington DC, and that was our opening. Then the perception changed and government became the solution to our foreigner-problem, and that was the closing of our opportunity. And we helped bring about that unfortunate shift ourselves, by jumping on the culture war bandwagon.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  19. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I meant that it was the GOP's turn toward identity politics which especially scuttled us (we had/have no presence in the Dem Party anyway).

    For a period of time we had an environment in the GOP where people were tiring of the War of Civilizations PR campaign unleashed after 9/11, and immigration and trade hadn't yet become major political issues. The people are always looking for someone to blame for their real or imaginary problems and, c. 2007-14, the average GOPer was looking at Washington DC, and that was our opening. Then the perception changed and government became the solution to our foreigner-problem, and that was the closing of our opportunity. And we helped bring about that unfortunate shift ourselves, by jumping on the culture war bandwagon.
    We only need to have the right answers to the problems of the culture war, most of those are to get government out of the culture business but in some cases the answer is to go back to the way things were when marriage was between a man and a woman and blatant lunatics were not allowed in the military etc.

    I will not go int the immigration problem since we have already covered that ground in other threads but you already know my position on that and even if we stopped all immigration we could still take a chainsaw to spending, taxes and regulations etc.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We only need to have the right answers to the problems of the culture war, most of those are to get government out of the culture business but in some cases the answer is to go back to the way things were when marriage was between a man and a woman and blatant lunatics were not allowed in the military etc.
    We can try to push right culture warriors toward more libertarian solutions to cultural problems, sure, but that doesn't get us any closer to solving other, actually important problems (spending, printing, warring, etc): to the contrary. As I said, every day we're talking about bathrooms is a day we're not talking about the Fed et al, and no one else is going to talk about it. We'd do better trying to cool down the culture war than encouraging it in order to shape it.

    And if the idea is to help settle the culture war favorably and then move on to other things, that's not going to work. The left's cultural revolution is permanent by nature, and the right is going to keep losing incrementally - neither will ever be satisfied with the status quo and ready to move on to other issues. It's just going to go on and on and on, sucking all the oxygen out of the room.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  21. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    We can try to push right culture warriors toward more libertarian solutions to cultural problems, sure, but that doesn't get us any closer to solving other, actually important problems (spending, printing, warring, etc): to the contrary. As I said, every day we're talking about bathrooms is a day we're not talking about the Fed et al, and no one else is going to talk about it. We'd do better trying to cool down the culture war than encouraging it in order to shape it.
    We can talk about both, then those who care about the culture will listen to the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And if the idea is to help settle the culture war favorably and then move on to other things, that's not going to work. The left's cultural revolution is permanent by nature, and the right is going to keep losing incrementally - neither will ever be satisfied with the status quo and ready to move on to other issues. It's just going to go on and on and on, sucking all the oxygen out of the room.
    Nothing is permanent, and bad culture dooms us to bad politics on everything else.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #21

    Default

    The ONLY answer is DECENTRALIZATION.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  23. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    The ONLY answer is DECENTRALIZATION.
    Hear, hear.

  24. #23

    Default

    Depends on the district. If yelling MAGA will get your candidate to Washington by all means urge him to do so. Liberty isn't about intellectual maturity, its about restoring freedom whatever it takes.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  25. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Depends on the district. If yelling MAGA will get your candidate to Washington by all means urge him to do so. Liberty isn't about intellectual maturity, its about restoring freedom whatever it takes.
    That's fine in principle, but it doesn't work so well in practice.

    If MAGA is the order of the day, it's tough for a libertarian pretending to MAGA to compete with a genuine MAGAer.

    The better strategy is to change the environment so that yelling MAGA is no longer a prerequisite to winning an election.

    Or, better, that yelling MAGA guarantees defeat.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  26. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's fine in principle, but it doesn't work so well in practice.

    If MAGA is the order of the day, it's tough for a libertarian pretending to MAGA to compete with a genuine MAGAer.

    The better strategy is to change the environment so that yelling MAGA is no longer a prerequisite to winning an election.

    Or, better, that yelling MAGA guarantees defeat.
    Or get libertarians to run who want to make America great again, instead of people like you who are happy to see the country go to the devil.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #26

    Default

    Here's a question to ponder:

    When did people who fearmonger about Muslims and how they're a threat to civilization become the enemies of neocons?

    In other words, in 2010, say, when John Bolton got on TV and talked about a war of civilization, islamo-fascism, etc, we'd call him a neocon.

    Now, when Bannon does the same thing, we say he's waging an epic battle against the neocons?

    How'd that happen?

    ...hmmm
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  28. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Or get libertarians to run who want to make America great again, instead of people like you who are happy to see the country go to the devil.


    Greatness incoming...

    ...any minute now.

    Right after the next clean debt ceiling hike, proposal to rename Obamacare, and 300 drone strikes.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's fine in principle, but it doesn't work so well in practice.

    If MAGA is the order of the day, it's tough for a libertarian pretending to MAGA to compete with a genuine MAGAer.

    The better strategy is to change the environment so that yelling MAGA is no longer a prerequisite to winning an election.

    Or, better, that yelling MAGA guarantees defeat.
    You might be able to win an election by yelling MAGA. It's certainly more plausible than convincing all the MAGA adherents that they are actually naughty boys who need to join an intellectual libertarian movement and give up their uncouth ways.

    Since when have candidates ever won by convincing voters they care about the wrong issues? The correct answer is never. If you don't want the moral majority vote fine. Don't pursue it. But it is a needed part of a winning coalition in many races.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You know better than that, I want him primaried in 2020, he is not doing enough of his own version of MAGA let alone the libertarian policies that would really MAGA.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Here's a question to ponder:

    When did people who fearmonger about Muslims and how they're a threat to civilization become the enemies of neocons?

    In other words, in 2010, say, when John Bolton got on TV and talked about a war of civilization, islamo-fascism, etc, we'd call him a neocon.

    Now, when Bannon does the same thing, we say he's waging an epic battle against the neocons?

    How'd that happen?

    ...hmmm
    Two different factions of neocons are fighting, and their self-fulfilling prophecy has come to pass and we now have to deal with a clash of civilizations, thankfully we are in a better position than Europe if we stop importing the enemies we made.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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