View Poll Results: Should Libertarians Ignore The Culture War?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it's a distraction that only hurts our cause.

    6 85.71%
  • No, cuck, MAGA! Drain the swamp!

    1 14.29%
  • No, cis-trash, Equality! Crash the patriarchy!

    0 0%
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Results 31 to 46 of 46

Thread: How Libertarians Should Approach The Culture War

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    You might be able to win an election by yelling MAGA. It's certainly more plausible than convincing all the MAGA adherents that they are actually naughty boys who need to join an intellectual libertarian movement and give up their uncouth ways.
    Never said anything about an intellectual libertarian movement

    All I'm talking about is ignoring the culture war and talking about, you know, liberty..

    ..the talk can be as low-brow as necessary.

    Since when have candidates ever won by convincing voters they care about the wrong issues? The correct answer is never. If you don't want the moral majority vote fine. Don't pursue it. But it is a needed part of a winning coalition in many races.
    Never said anything about that either

    FOX didn't sit down and explain to people in the summer of 2015 that immigrants were about to rape and murder them all.

    It just played emotional anti-immigrant stories non-stop for 3 months.

    How do you get people to turn away from that (or the like re bathrooms, cakes, or any other trivia)?

    Stop talking about it. Stop posting story after story after story designed to provoke tribal, culture war reactions.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    All I'm talking about is ignoring the culture war and talking about, you know, liberty.
    Why would we want to ignore a war on the culture of liberty?

    The bill of rights, individual liberty, the sovereignty of the individual over the collective, western political liberalism and enlightenment philosophy...that is what the cultural Marxists are attacking.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    Stop talking about it. Stop posting story after story after story designed to provoke tribal, culture war reactions.

  5. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution3.0
    Dump the Chic-Filet and the gay cake and get back in fighting shape, I say.
    great metaphor and great advise. Lean and mean yea baby.

  6. #35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We only need to have the right answers to the problems of the culture war, most of those are to get government out of the culture business
    K...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    but in some cases the answer is to go back to the way things were when marriage was between a man and a woman and blatant lunatics were not allowed in the military etc.
    And how is it determined that these are the "correct" portions of the culture war that should be pursued?

    "The government should stay out of culture" can be a strong, consistent argument which can appeal to anyone who isn't interested in policing their neighbors' personal habits via government force.

    "The government should stay out of my cultural preferences by enforcing them upon others" is a weak and inconsistent argument which only appeals to those both sharing your desire to police your neighbors and also your list of approved cultural behaviors which should be free from government interference. It's essentially the status quo of the culture war. It divides the populace by creating groupings of both principle and culture, such that you drive away potential allies who share your principles/values but not your culture.

    (Inb4 it's impossible to share principles without sharing culture.)
    Last edited by TheCount; 11-15-2017 at 12:09 AM.

  7. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    K...



    And how is it determined that these are the "correct" portions of the culture war that should be pursued?

    "The government should stay out of culture" can be a strong, consistent argument which can appeal to anyone who isn't interested in policing their neighbors' personal habits via government force.

    "The government should stay out of my cultural preferences by enforcing them upon others" is a weak and inconsistent argument which only appeals to those both sharing your desire to police your neighbors and also your list of approved cultural behaviors which should be free from government interference. It's essentially the status quo of the culture war. It divides the populace by creating groupings of both principle and culture, such that you drive away potential allies who share your principles/values but not your culture.

    (Inb4 it's impossible to share principles without sharing culture.)
    The question is does government have any legitimate purpose in dealing with a given aspect of culture, government does have a need to determine who is married to whom since marriage affects many legal issues, government also has a need to determine what gender a person is since there are legal issues affected by that as well and since those who are delusional about their gender are not fit to serve in the military.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The question is does government have any legitimate purpose in dealing with a given aspect of culture
    Yes, that's what I asked you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    government does have a need to determine who is married to whom since marriage affects many legal issues
    To government, marriage is a contract. There are no additional "legal issues" posed by two women signing a marriage contract vs. a man and a woman. There is no difference between "protecting culture" by outlawing same-sex contracts and "protecting culture" by outlawing interracial, inter-religious, or international marriage contracts. Once you decide that the government has the power to be the arbiter of marriage contracts, that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    government also has a need to determine what gender a person is since there are legal issues affected by that as well
    Such as? I can't think of any legal issue in which the gender of the person involved should be material to the outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    and since those who are delusional about their gender are not fit to serve in the military.
    Is it a matter of culture or a matter of fitness?

  9. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I can't think of any legal issue in which the gender of the person involved should be material to the outcome.
    A libertarian society requires no legal definition of gender, but, in our present society, where there are lots of welfare programs/regulations which discriminate on the basis of gender, it becomes an issue. It's the same with marriage. In a libertarian society, marriage would be either a contract (like any other) or a purely cultural concept (like friendship or godfatherhood) without any legal ramifications at all; but in our present society, with differential tax treatment of married/single people (to take one example), the state is compelled to interfere and define marriage. Of course, the sensible solution here is to get the state out of those matters altogether, not lobby it to adopt our preferred definitions of gender/marriage.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre ó the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

    -H. L. Mencken

  10. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    To government, marriage is a contract. There are no additional "legal issues" posed by two women signing a marriage contract vs. a man and a woman. There is no difference between "protecting culture" by outlawing same-sex contracts and "protecting culture" by outlawing interracial, inter-religious, or international marriage contracts. Once you decide that the government has the power to be the arbiter of marriage contracts, that's it.
    Marriage is involved in inheritance, divorce, medical decisions etc., government has to decide who is married and who is not in such cases and it should follow the rules of our culture when doing so.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Such as? I can't think of any legal issue in which the gender of the person involved should be material to the outcome.
    Now you are just playing stupid, if a man goes into a restroom marked for women and the store calls the police the government needs to determine if he is a man or not, there are many other cases where it can make a difference as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Is it a matter of culture or a matter of fitness?
    Both.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Marriage is involved in inheritance, divorce, medical decisions etc., government has to decide who is married and who is not in such cases and it should follow the rules of our culture when doing so.
    1. Government needing to know who is married is very different from government deciding who is married. Legal issues require only proof of marriage, which is already done via marriage certificates. Marriages are verified and registered by government, not approved.

    2. There is no "our" culture.

    3. Culture is not static, and polls show that a majority of Americans accept gay marriage, and have for years. So whose culture are you attempting to reference, anyway? Who is "us?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Now you are just playing stupid, if a man goes into a restroom marked for women and the store calls the police the government needs to determine if he is a man or not
    Why? If the store wants him removed, then his gender is irrelevant. If he committed a crime while in the bathroom, then his gender is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    Trump is playing a real game of chess. I feel blessed that my intuition made me support him back in September 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    I think [Trump] is going to cut the budget.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    I give Trump 1 year to put [Clinton] in jail. See you in January 2018 about this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    [Paul Ryan being kicked out of speakership] happens soon after the vote fails.

  12. #41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    1. Government needing to know who is married is very different from government deciding who is married. Legal issues require only proof of marriage, which is already done via marriage certificates. Marriages are verified and registered by government, not approved.
    Marriage has a definition, just claiming to be married doesn't mean you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    2. There is no "our" culture.
    Yes there is.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    3. Culture is not static, and polls show that a majority of Americans accept gay marriage, and have for years. So whose culture are you attempting to reference, anyway? Who is "us?"
    Fake news.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Why? If the store wants him removed, then his gender is irrelevant. If he committed a crime while in the bathroom, then his gender is irrelevant.
    Whether or not the person committed a crime can depend on the person's gender.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Marriage has a definition, just claiming to be married doesn't mean you are.
    Absolutely right, it's a specific contractual agreement requiring the signatures of a government official and a couple of witnesses verifying that they watched you agree to it.

    ... Just like anything you've ever gotten notarized...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes there is.
    The mouse in your pocket has no culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Fake news.
    Dank meme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Whether or not the person committed a crime can depend on the person's gender..
    I hate to put a damper on your hobbies, but exposing yourself to strangers in the bathroom is a crime no matter which bathroom you're in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    Trump is playing a real game of chess. I feel blessed that my intuition made me support him back in September 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    I think [Trump] is going to cut the budget.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    I give Trump 1 year to put [Clinton] in jail. See you in January 2018 about this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    [Paul Ryan being kicked out of speakership] happens soon after the vote fails.

  14. #43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I hate to put a damper on your hobbies, but exposing yourself to strangers in the bathroom is a crime no matter which bathroom you're in.
    Projecting are we?

    Just being in the WRONG restroom is a crime.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    great metaphor and great advise. Lean and mean yea baby.
    Has anybody seen Zippy and Rev3 together?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  16. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just being in the WRONG restroom is a crime.
    Are you sure?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    Trump is playing a real game of chess. I feel blessed that my intuition made me support him back in September 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    I think [Trump] is going to cut the budget.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    I give Trump 1 year to put [Clinton] in jail. See you in January 2018 about this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    [Paul Ryan being kicked out of speakership] happens soon after the vote fails.

  17. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Are you sure?
    Depends how much you are willing to troll.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

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