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Thread: Rand Paul: Have to Cut Taxes on Top 1 Percent or It’s Not a ‘Significant Tax Cut’

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So it is like I said, Rand hasn't voted yet and there is still time to amend the bill in the Senate or in the reconciliation process.
    Amendment time is over. They want to vote on it next week.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Amendment time is over. They want to vote on it next week.
    We will see.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #33

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    Ron always said he would love to get rid of the income tax, but that you had to deal with government spending first or you make the debt situation worse.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-or-break-week

    If three Republicans vote against it, it will not pass.

    The GOP Tax Plan Is Entering Its Make-or-Break Week

    The $1.4 trillion item on President Donald Trump’s wish list -- a package of tax cuts for businesses and individuals that he has said he wants to sign before year’s end -- is headed into the legislative equivalent of a Black Friday scrum next week.

    Senate Republican leaders plan a make-or-break floor vote on their bill as soon as Thursday -- a dramatic moment that will come only after a marathon debate that could go all night. Democrats are expected to try to delay or derail the measure, and the GOP must hold together at least 50 votes from its thin, 52-vote majority in order to prevail.

    Their chances improved this week when Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska said she’ll support repealing the “individual mandate” imposed by Obamacare -- a provision that Senate tax writers are counting on to help finance the tax cuts. Murkowski had earlier signaled some reservations about the provision; and her support was widely viewed as a positive sign for the tax bill’s chances.
    Three GOP senators -- Bob Corker of Tennessee, Jeff Flake of Arizona and James Lankford of Oklahoma -- have cited concerns about how the measure would affect federal deficits. Independent studies of the legislation have found that -- contrary to its backers’ arguments -- its tax cuts won’t stimulate enough growth to pay for themselves. Both the Senate bill, and one that cleared the House earlier this month, would reduce federal revenue over a decade by roughly $1.4 trillion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

    On Wednesday, a report from the Penn Wharton Budget Model at the University of Pennsylvania said the bill would reduce federal revenue in each year from 2028 to 2033. That finding would mean it doesn’t comply with a key budget rule that Senate Republican leaders want to use to pass their bill with a simple majority over Democrats’ objections.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-24-2017 at 08:55 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron always said he would love to get rid of the income tax, but that you had to deal with government spending first or you make the debt situation worse.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-or-break-week

    If three Republicans vote against it, it will not pass.
    You make it worse by pretending like this isn't a government bailout and call it a tax cut. You make it worse by pretending the Trump government wants to cut taxes. You make it worse by pretending like Rand's vote has any power over this, like he is the deciding vote, when he has been arguing for making real tax cuts, not arguing for passing whatever he can get, he is always trying to get as much of a cut as he can.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You make it worse by pretending like this isn't a government bailout and call it a tax cut. You make it worse by pretending the Trump government wants to cut taxes. You make it worse by pretending like Rand's vote has any power over this, like he is the deciding vote, when he has been arguing for making real tax cuts, not arguing for passing whatever he can get, he is always trying to get as much of a cut as he can.
    The Senate vote will be so close every one will matter. The question is priorities- deficits or cutting taxes. If deficits matter, then vote no. If tax cuts are important, then vote yes. Voting for tax cuts usually get you more votes in the next election. Given his statements on the tax cut bill, the debt situation is not as important to Rand.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The Senate vote will be so close every one will matter. The question is priorities- deficits or cutting taxes. If deficits matter, then vote no. If tax cuts are important, then vote yes. Voting for tax cuts usually get you more votes in the next election. Given his statements on the tax cut bill, the debt situation is not as important to Rand.
    The senate votes are political theater, one vote doesn't make a difference when the establishment is bipartisan controlled opposition zippy. They don't even bring $#@! to vote when Rand has the power to stop it from passing, that would make Rand the most popular conservative of our time.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The senate votes are political theater, one vote doesn't make a difference when the establishment is bipartisan controlled opposition zippy. They don't even bring $#@! to vote when Rand has the power to stop it from passing, that would make Rand the most popular conservative of our time.
    Rand's votes don't matter but Rand's votes stop legislation. Hmm.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Rand's votes don't matter but Rand's votes stop legislation. Hmm.
    Ideas matter, ideas have power, Ron only got audit the fed when he changed peoples mind on the fed, now we need to discuss taxation but you can't really cut taxes without cutting government, and people haven't changed their minds about the role of government. How do you purpose we change peoples minds without forcing the matter. Your wrong about us not being able to cut revenue without increasing taxes somewhere, you can force people to reexamine the role of government -by letting the government programs fail- its something that government could do but they will only do it when people force them to, its the rules because those are the rules we let them play by, we are the masters of government, we just need to put the chains back on.

  10. #39

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    What better way for a swift economics lesson, Ron Paul became popular because he was proved right after 2008, the intervention didn't stop though even though they called it a great recession it was more like depression with the middle class bailing out the bad economics. The establishment is cannibalizing the dollar and people are being stupid about it, the same people who are for fiat money are destroying it. When your enemies are shooting themselves in the face do you stop them?

  11. #40

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    When you already have a huge deficit, spending needs to be cut before taxes can be. I love low taxes, but we still have to pay for the spending we have authorized, and cutting taxes right now is the definition of passing on our debt to future generations. You can't cut taxes on the hopes that spending goes down - won't happen.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocrehamster View Post
    When you already have a huge deficit, spending needs to be cut before taxes can be. I love low taxes, but we still have to pay for the spending we have authorized, and cutting taxes right now is the definition of passing on our debt to future generations. You can't cut taxes on the hopes that spending goes down - won't happen.
    It has nothing to do with spending it has to do with legal plunder. The government shouldn't be able to take things from us or buy things with counterfeit money but those should be separate arguments you can't justify legal plunder with the veiled threat that if you don't take it from us you are going to counterfeit money thats thats a false moral equivalence.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocrehamster View Post
    passing on our debt to future generations.
    You can't pass debt to people that don't exist, this is actually a democrat talking point designed so that the republicrat machine doesn't pass anything that interrupts the medical industrial complex the education industrial complex the military industrial complex and the banking industrial complex, or big oil.

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    It has nothing to do with spending it has to do with legal plunder. The government shouldn't be able to take things from us or buy things with counterfeit money but those should be separate arguments you can't justify legal plunder with the veiled threat that if you don't take it from us you are going to counterfeit money thats thats a false moral equivalence.
    It's still authorizing taxation, which I think it what you mean by "plunder" (it's not the 1800s anymore, Bastiat). And a lot of people will likely see their taxes increase. Nobody who is serious about fiscal responsibility could support the current legislation. You sound like an anarchist or something, so I think we will have to agree to disagree.

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You can't pass debt to people that don't exist, this is actually a democrat talking point designed so that the republicrat machine doesn't pass anything that interrupts the medical industrial complex the education industrial complex the military industrial complex and the banking industrial complex, or big oil.
    LOL what? This is an argument that conservatives made against the Obama stimulus and deficits. Was national debt not passed on to the current generation? Yes. When this generation dies, will the debt be paid off? No. It will be passed on to the next generation. You are clueless.

  16. #45

  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You can't pass debt to people that don't exist, this is actually a democrat talking point designed so that the republicrat machine doesn't pass anything that interrupts the medical industrial complex the education industrial complex the military industrial complex and the banking industrial complex, or big oil.
    Simply cutting taxes will do nothing to reduce any of those things. It will only increase the money the government needs to borrow- that increases demand for borrowed money and raises its costs (interest rates) which slows the economy over time.

    If debt is not passed down to future generations- who is going to pay it? The current generation? Or will the government default on the people they have borrowed from (which includes a huge chunk of people's retirement plans holding government bonds).

    If you want to reduce government, you have to reduce government. Cutting taxes does not get you there. That only works if the government is banned from borrowing like state governments are.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you want to reduce government, you have to reduce government. Cutting taxes does not get you there. That only works if the government is banned from borrowing like state governments are.
    Government will get smaller when the dollar doesn't buy as much. With the unfunded liabilities that we have it will happen, its just a matter of time, Rand is the only one arguing for the idea of individual spending bills, for real budgeting, for real cuts.

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocrehamster View Post
    LOL what? This is an argument that conservatives made against the Obama stimulus and deficits. Was national debt not passed on to the current generation? Yes. When this generation dies, will the debt be paid off? No. It will be passed on to the next generation. You are clueless.
    $#@! conservatives, they are the worst, they vote for huge government spending, there weren't many real conservatives arguing good ideas during Obamas presidency, they usually get attacked for not changing the congress because he hasn't convinced people to cut spending yet, but to act like he isn't the only one trying besides maybe one or two of his friends is a joke. You have a bunch of fake conservatives that pretend to work with Rand Paul because he is the real deal, to get any credibility. If people don't stand up for Rand Paul and believe the fake news the wrong ideas will win.

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    $#@! conservatives, they are the worst, they vote for huge government spending, there weren't many real conservatives arguing good ideas during Obamas presidency, they usually get attacked for not changing the congress because he hasn't convinced people to cut spending yet, but to act like he isn't the only one trying besides maybe one or two of his friends is a joke. You have a bunch of fake conservatives that pretends to work with Rand Paul because he is the real deal, to get any credibility. If people don't stand up for Rand Paul and believe the fake news the wrong ideas will win.
    Yeah, you should stop saying $#@! Rand - he's a conservative, and wrote this:

    "To put a stop to robbing future generations to pay for ever-enlarging government.
    Cato’s Michael Tanner, another speaker on the panel mentioned earlier, reported that “[t]he Congressional Budget Office indicates that young people in the midcentury will have income [between $3,000] to $5,000 a year less than they would if this debt didn’t exist.”"

    http://rare.us/rare-politics/issues/...ithout-reform/

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocrehamster View Post
    LOL what? This is an argument that conservatives made against the Obama stimulus and deficits. Was national debt not passed on to the current generation? Yes. When this generation dies, will the debt be paid off? No. It will be passed on to the next generation. You are clueless.
    What you are doing is arguing that debt matters, but you can't have managed interest rates and care about debt at the same time. What do you think would happen if the interest rates changed on that debt, do you think there is any amount of taxation that could pay for it? You can't argue that we need less money in the private economy or capitalism, when you won't address the public debt that is strangling the private economy. I am tired of people pretending like the government taxing me is going to stop the inflation, the inflation is there, they are just subsidizing the bread a circus to keep the pyramid scheme going.

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    What you are doing is arguing that debt matters, but you can't have managed interest rates and care about debt at the same time. What do you think would happen if the interest rates changed on that debt, do you think there is any amount of taxation that could pay for it? You can't argue that we need less money in the private economy or capitalism, when you won't address the public debt that is strangling the private economy. I am tired of people pretending like the government taxing me is going to stop the inflation, the inflation is there, they are just subsidizing the bread a circus to keep the pyramid scheme going.
    Long term rates, which are not managed, are still low, and were not even impacted when QE stopped. Low rates make sense in the low inflation environment we've been in. Where is the inflation?

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    What you are doing is arguing that debt matters, but you can't have managed interest rates and care about debt at the same time. What do you think would happen if the interest rates changed on that debt, do you think there is any amount of taxation that could pay for it? You can't argue that we need less money in the private economy or capitalism, when you won't address the public debt that is strangling the private economy. I am tired of people pretending like the government taxing me is going to stop the inflation, the inflation is there, they are just subsidizing the bread a circus to keep the pyramid scheme going.
    This isn't your question, but what could make the interest rates on the debt increase is irresponsible tax cuts (or spending increases, we're trying to do both simultaneously) without the corresponding spending cuts.

  24. #53

  25. #54

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    So we should continue with the current system, let debts and government grow, and hope it fails in the future and something beautiful rises from its ashes.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  26. #55

  27. #56

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    People get elected by promising to fix problems- real or imagined- for people. That means spending money. But you have to hide the fact that it will actually cost people money. Never mention the costs when you say you have a great program the people are gonna love. Want to not get elected again? Promise to cut those programs. Want to get elected? Promise that they won't have to pay for those programs. Either hide the costs or put them off into the future. Promise to cut their taxes rather than promise them to be responsible and pay for those programs as you go.

    How can you change the political incentive for politicians to act differently?
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    People get elected by promising to fix problems- real or imagined- for people. That means spending money. But you have to hide the fact that it will actually cost people money. Never mention the costs when you say you have a great program the people are gonna love. Want to not get elected again? Promise to cut those programs. Want to get elected? Promise that they won't have to pay for those programs. Either hide the costs or put them off into the future. Promise to cut their taxes rather than promise them to be responsible and pay for those programs as you go.

    How can you change the political incentive for politicians to act differently?
    By making it politically toxic for politicians to support bad legislation- what do you think Rand Paul has been doing and why he got attacked? He has been fighting the narrative on healthcare by trying to push the narrative that Trump is going to do real tax cuts and real health care reform. He does it so Trump has to put up or shut up, but they made Rand Paul shut up. Hijacking the trojan horse has consequences.

  29. #58

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    Trump likes to hit people back twice as hard too, we need to have his side.

    "Rand Paul, or whoever votes against Hcare Bill, will forever (future political campaigns) be known as 'the Republican who saved ObamaCare,'" -Trump



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