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Thread: Women preachers/pastors/priests

  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    So let me ask you this... what is it in Romans 13 that shakes you up so much?
    What "shakes me up" is that you want it both ways.

    When Paul says women are to be quiet and still, and submit to male leadership in the church and home, we are supposed to blow it off as "you're not reading it right".

    When Paul says that anybody who resists an earthly government, regardless of whether that government is good or evil, we are supposed to take his word at face value and submit.

    Romans 13: 1-2 KJV -

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


    There.

    The "powers that be", are ordained by God himself.

    Resisting them earns one damnation.

    So you can't have it both ways.

    It either is, or is not.

    Now, personally, I think Paul is full of $#@!, and will happily disregard what he has to say, regardless of how I feel personally about putting woemen in leadership positions.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 12-31-2017 at 12:49 PM.



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  3. #122

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    Women are never told to submit to males in general, only to their husbands. And if you read the Scripture itself, and try it in several different translations, you will find there is a good deal of nuance to the word submit. In addition, there are quite a few instructions given to church leaders and to husbands, so it all has to be taken together to make one picture.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  4. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Women are never told to submit to males in general, only to their husbands. And if you read the Scripture itself, and try it in several different translations, you will find there is a good deal of nuance to the word submit. In addition, there are quite a few instructions given to church leaders and to husbands, so it all has to be taken together to make one picture.
    Paul says this:

    “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)

    That is within the church, so I have to presume that the church elders, pastors or leaders are not this woman's husband.

    Now, which is it:

    Is the translation wrong?

    Is Paul wrong?

    Is God wrong?

    And if this is wrong, then how can Romans 13 be right?

  5. #124

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    Since we are looking also at Romans 13, let's put it in context of 1 Timothy 2, the passage you are dealing with in the first place: I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    The purpose of liberty is so we can live quietly and peaceably, and so people may hear the gospel and be saved. Think about that.

    I would suggest if you all are going down this path to consider 1 Peter 3 and note the instructions are for both husbands and wives.

    Please also remember that all of Scripture needs to be taken into consideration. Look at the events and the people and what that suggests. One of the first prophecies over the infant Jesus was Simeon. The second was Anna, a prophetess. She lived in the Temple and prophesied. It was recognized at the time of the Lord's birth, and was recognized in the Early Church. There is nothing else to say. it did happen. Prophets were the ones who tell what God knows. It was their job. Not all had positions in the church, but there were several OT prophets who were rather high up in government. Isaiah and Daniel are noteworthy, and then it is pretty clear that all prophets had access to kings. Samuel, Nathan, and Elijah, for example.
    Last edited by euphemia; 12-31-2017 at 01:15 PM.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  6. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Since we are looking also at Romans 13, let's put it in context of 1 Timothy 2, the passage you are dealing with in the first place: I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    The purpose of liberty is so we can live quietly and peaceably, and so people may hear the gospel and be saved. Think about that.

    I would suggest if you all are going down this path to consider 1 Peter 3 and note the instructions are for both husbands and wives.
    Yes, and in an absence of liberty, peace and quiet and privacy are usually the first things to go.

    Paul says, however, that I am condemned to damnation if I resist the earthly powers taking away liberty.

  7. #126

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    How much do you pray for the authorities violating your Constitutional rights? What would you say to people in other nations who are oppressed worse than you are? When have you been faced with the choice of obedience or death? Jesus died so we can be free from the slavery of sin, not so we can do what we want. Liberty means freedom to obey God.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  8. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What "shakes me up" is that you want it both ways.

    When Paul says women are to be quiet and still, and submit to male leadership in the church and home, we are supposed to blow it off as "you're not reading it right".

    When Paul says that anybody who resists an earthly government, regardless of whether that government is good or evil, we are supposed to take his word at face value and submit.

    Romans 13: 1-2 KJV -

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


    There.

    The "powers that be", are ordained by God himself.

    Resisting them earns one damnation.

    So you can't have it both ways.

    It either is, or is not.

    Now, personally, I think Paul is full of $#@!, and will happily disregard what he has to say, regardless of how I feel personally about putting woemen in leadership positions.
    I do not want things both ways.

    The verse does not mean our Father approves of the leaders. They are not “His leaders“.

    Whether you think Paul is full of it, God uses whomever he needs to have His words come to pass exactly as it was written.

    He is preparing us for the Locust Army and that we must have our Gospel Armor to stand against the fiery darts of Satan.

    Ephesians 6:12
    12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


    The rulers of this world are Satan, his children and those who follow their agenda. Our Father allows this if we are going to sit back idle, “if good men do nothing“. What exactly does that say about our elected officials then if they reign over this fleshly world that is led by Satan? Is it any wonder why our elected officials are always ripping off the people, stealing their taxes and removing their freedoms through the lies of endless wars and terrorism? That is not of God, but Satan himself.

  9. #128

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    Satan only acts with permission from God. See the book of Job.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley



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  11. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Satan only acts with permission from God. See the book of Job.
    Satan does not ask permission, because he thinks he is better than God, that is why he is already condemned to Hell.

    Satan asked God to lift his wall of protection from Job.

  12. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    How much do you pray for the authorities violating your Constitutional rights? What would you say to people in other nations who are oppressed worse than you are? When have you been faced with the choice of obedience or death? Jesus died so we can be free from the slavery of sin, not so we can do what we want. Liberty means freedom to obey God.
    That is what I am trying to do here, but no one can seem to come up with cogent explanation of what God wants.

  13. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Satan does not ask permission, because he thinks he is better than God, that is why he is already condemned to Hell.

    Satan asked God to lift his wall of protection from Job.
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Satan only acts with permission from God. See the book of Job.
    See what I mean?

    Both of you claim to know scripture inside and out, much better than I claim to know it.

    And neither one of ya'll can agree on what it means, on something as critical as what Satan's motivation is.

  14. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Satan does not ask permission, because he thinks he is better than God, that is why he is already condemned to Hell.

    Satan asked God to lift his wall of protection from Job.
    God can always stop Satan. Satan is only a fallen angel. He has no authority anywhere.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  15. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    God can always stop Satan. Satan is only a fallen angel. He has no authority anywhere.
    Of course God can stop Satan. God could have destroyed him and the 1/3 of his children that followed Satan in the first earth age. However God loved them and wouldn't do that. Satan is good with deceiving people. That is why this time on earth, in the flesh, is a test--you either love God and follow him or you love Satan and follow him.

  16. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    He has no authority anywhere.
    Authority no.
    Influence over authorities,,, oh hell yes.

    The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
    We know the end..
    But in this time he leads the nations to war.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That is what I am trying to do here, but no one can seem to come up with cogent explanation of what God wants.
    Dude, this Scripture has little to do with what God asks of you. Read the Bible. Pray. Talk to your pastor.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  18. #136

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    Satan is not a deity.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley



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  20. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Authority no.
    Influence over authorities,,, oh hell yes.



    We know the end..
    But in this time he leads the nations to war.
    How the devil got his start

    Lucifer, whose name means "morning star" or "bringer of light" (Strong's Concordance #H1966) was created by God in the distant past. He was created to belong to a class of angels known as cherubim (Ezekiel 28:14). He was not only made with unmatched wisdom, beauty and musical talents (verses 12 - 13) but was also the greatest being God could create by fiat (verse 15). His initial responsibility was as one of the angelic beings that covered the glory of God's throne (verse 14).

    Lucifer sinned and turned himself into the devil when he deceived himself into thinking he was better than everyone else (vanity), including the Being who made him (Ezekiel 28:11 - 17, Isaiah 14:12 - 15). Because he felt himself superior to God, he rejected his standards of what was right. He replaced them, in his own heart, with a newly created belief system that was diametrically opposite to that of God's. Lucifer wanted to determine what was right and wrong, good and evil, based on his own will rather than accepting the will of his Creator. He then lusted after the power and authority the Eternal had over all things. This led to the devil deceiving as many angels as he could in order to form a spiritual army to storm heaven and attempt to remove the Almighty from his throne (which, of course, failed miserably).

    Power and authority
    The devil, at the time he rebelled against all that was holy and good, was serving on a throne of rule possibly governing one third of the angelic realm.

    12. How you are fallen from the heavens, O shining star, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! 13. For you have said in your heart, 'I will ascend into the heavens, I will exalt MY THRONE above the stars of God . . . (Isaiah 14:12 - 13, HBFV throughout, see also Revelation 12:3 - 4).

    Even though he sinned and betrayed the trust he was given, the devil has been allowed (for a time) to retain his rule over the angels he deceived into sinning.

    7. And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels warred against the dragon, and the dragon and HIS ANGELS warred. (Revelation 12:7) [This is the 6 trump, 6 vial, and the 6 seal--not before]

    Satan has also been allowed to retain his power and to use it in the world. [Satan will be thrown out of Heaven and proceed to heal the deadly wound the NWO will receive.]

    9. Even the one whose coming is according to the inner working of Satan, with ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS . . . (2Thessalonians 2:9) [And because he comes as the Lamb people will whore after him. He will come peacefully and prosperously, contrary to all the horror movies.]

    9. And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent who is called the Devil and Satan, WHO IS DECEIVING THE WHOLE WORLD . . . (Revelation 12:9)

    3. But if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are perishing; 4. In whom THE GOD OF THIS AGE (world) has blinded the minds of those who do not believe . . . (2Corinthians 4:3 - 4) [This is why it is a good idea to study God's word daily--chapter by chapter and verse by verse to gain understanding]

    God has determined, for the time being, to give the devil and his demons a certain amount of freedom to carry out their evil schemes. This series will explore what they allowed to do and not do.
    [my emphasis]

    http://www.biblestudy.org/bible-stud...nd-not-do.html

  21. #138

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    Isaiah 27:1
    In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
    This is my Great Hope,, and is tattooed on my back.

    It is a done deal by Eternal standards, but not yet in time.

    That Dragon corrupts this world, and people in it.(the sea)

    (I am doing time in time.) I will be glad when he is gone.
    Unfortunately,, he is not gone here in time. He is more like the Warden.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Isaiah 27:1


    This is my Great Hope,, and is tattooed on my back.

    It is a done deal by Eternal standards, but not yet in time.

    That Dragon corrupts this world, and people in it.(the sea)

    (I am doing time in time.) I will be glad when he is gone.
    Unfortunately,, he is not gone here in time. He is more like the Warden.
    One of the reasons we need to be the watchmen.

    Ezekiel 33:6 (KJV)

    6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

  23. #140

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    Donna, I have a degree in Bible. Satan is a fallen angel. He was created, and he is not God.

    People have sinful natures at birth, as the Bible teaches. The evil is already there. It is not something Satan does to people.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  24. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Donna, I have a degree in Bible. Satan is a fallen angel. He was created, and he is not God.

    People have sinful natures at birth, as the Bible teaches. The evil is already there. It is not something Satan does to people.
    Where did I say Satan is God? I said, "Satan does not ask permission, because he thinks he is better than God..."

    At the 6th trump, the 6th vial and the 6th seal Satan will be kicked out of Heaven by Michael and Satan will descend to earth pretending to be Christ. He will come with wonders, lie and deception and all the world will whore after him, except those that know the WORD.

  25. #142

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    well back to the OP,,

    I think that women can lead people astray just as well as men,,

    And that it is difficult to undo and overcome centuries of errors for anybody.
    Leading people back,,, anyone can be used by the Spirit.
    Be prepared to give answer.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #143

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Where did I say Satan is God? I said, "Satan does not ask permission, because he thinks he is better than God..."
    I didn’t say he asked permission, either, but it is clear that he has access and did ask at least once. What I am saying is that the Great Loser does not have ultimate control over anyone or anything. God does. If the devil does something it is because God permits it, as in grants permission.

    The evil is already within the human heart. At the end evil will be unleashed from without as well.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  27. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    well back to the OP,,

    I think that women can lead people astray just as well as men,,

    And that it is difficult to undo and overcome centuries of errors for anybody.
    Leading people back,,, anyone can be used by the Spirit.
    Be prepared to give answer.
    I totally agree. That was one of the reasons why Paul said that to Timothy because there was a lot of false teachings happening, and he left Timothy there to deal with it.



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  29. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Dude, this Scripture has little to do with what God asks of you. Read the Bible. Pray. Talk to your pastor.
    I think it has a very great deal to do with what God wants, if the consequence of getting it wrong is damnation.

    And "dude"?

    Seriously?

  30. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What "shakes me up" is that you want it both ways.

    When Paul says women are to be quiet and still, and submit to male leadership in the church and home, we are supposed to blow it off as "you're not reading it right".

    When Paul says that anybody who resists an earthly government, regardless of whether that government is good or evil, we are supposed to take his word at face value and submit.

    Romans 13: 1-2 KJV -

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


    There.

    The "powers that be", are ordained by God himself.

    Resisting them earns one damnation.

    So you can't have it both ways.

    It either is, or is not.

    Now, personally, I think Paul is full of $#@!, and will happily disregard what he has to say, regardless of how I feel personally about putting woemen in leadership positions.
    In modern English, when you say "damnation" that implies the punishment God gives unbelievers in the afterlife.

    Obviously that's not what this passage is talking about. I can only assume that when the KJV translators used the word "damnation" there it was because in 1611 it didn't have such limited connotations as it does now.

    If you dismiss what Paul says here, you can't just limit that to Paul. You have to dismiss Jesus just as much. He also commanded his disciples to endure with patience the injustices that tyrants imposed on them. And he did so more stridently than Paul. And he himself submitted to the powers that be all the way to his death.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 12-31-2017 at 07:40 PM.

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