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Thread: Women preachers/pastors/priests

  1. #1

    Exclamation Women preachers/pastors/priests

    Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?

    https://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

    Question: "Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?"

    Answer: There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.

    The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12).

    In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13–14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them.

    There are many objections to this view of women in pastoral ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching men (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, the pastor of the church in Ephesus). Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, and women were the authorities in that branch of paganism—therefore, the theory goes, Paul was only reacting against the female-led customs of the Ephesian idolaters, and the church needed to be different. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention the standard practice of Artemis worshipers as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11–12.

    A third objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words for “woman” and “man” in 1 Timothy 2 could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words is broader than that. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8–10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9–10)? Of course not. Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.

    Yet another objection to this interpretation of women in pastoral ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. It is true that these women were chosen by God for special service to Him and that they stand as models of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church. The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

    Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla’s name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more prominent in ministry than her husband. Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately” (Acts 18:26). Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11–14.

    In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:6–9).

    The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22–33) and in the church.

    The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

    Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22–23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18–20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

    God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.



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  3. #2
    1 Timothy 2:12
    2 “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

    Who was speaking, was it God? No, it was Paul. Paul was making this statement and we will learn the context as we move forward. Remember, at the time of this writing it was not very common for a woman to be a leader, but as we will learn there certainly have been women leaders and teachers of the Word. We should understand both the woman and the man have their own roles to fulfill in a marriage. Naturally the woman brings the family unit together through her role as a nurturer and where would we all be without Mom? While the man’s role is to be the provider and protector of the family. Men and woman are certainly different creatures and what I just stated documents itself.

    Paul also said the woman should not “usurp authority over the man“. This word “authority” is Strong’s word 831 and it means, “dominate – usurp authority over“. A woman in the natural sense is not to dominate the relationship, it should be the man leading and we will document that is Biblical in a moment. This does not mean the man should treat his wife poorly, you should love, lead and take care of your family in all aspects. Remember when a man and woman join together “they shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). All too often some people try to use scripture to make the woman appear as if she is lower than the man, that is just not Biblical. Rather each, the man and woman have their own separate roles to fulfill.

    Please turn your Bible with me to,

    Ephesians 5:24
    24 “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

    This does not mean the man lords over his wife. The man is to lead the family unit by example and that example is the one Christ set for us (1 Corinthians 11:3).

    Let us continue.

    Ephesians 5:25
    25 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

    The love for a husband is compared to Christ’s love for the church which is simply the many membered body of Christ being you and I. Christ loved us so much He gave His own life so that we might live if we believe on Him. Think about that for a moment. That is the love a husband is supposed to have for his wife. When you understand that, then you will know without a doubt the man is not to lord over the wife or treat her with a lower level of respect. Remember, Christ is our example and He came to be a servant to us.

    Ephesians 5:28
    28 “So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.”

    Love your wife as yourself.

    Ephesians 5:29
    29 “For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:”

    Why are those verses important with respect to the question being asked? They should help put in perspective 1 Timothy 2:12 which Shermanda is asking about. Paul was not trying to put down woman, I believe he was making the point that it should be the man who leads not only the family unit, but the church as well. Let me add, a man who will not lead his family and forces his wife to lead the family is not much of a man in my eyes.

    We are now going to look at two examples in the past where woman not only lead, but they taught the Word as well. Please turn your Bible with me to,

    Judges 4:4
    4 “And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.”

    Deborah was a great example of not only a woman leading and teaching, but she did it when no other man would. Again, this is the point Paul was making, a man should take on the leadership role, not the woman. But no man would make a stand for God, so Deborah did and how proud our Father was of her. Acts 21:9 also documents Philip “had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy“. This word “prophesy” is Strong’s word 4395 and it means, “speak under inspiration“. Under what “inspiration“, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

    Our Father had no problem using woman to fulfill His Word and neither should any of us.
    http://worldeventsandthebible.com/20...tml#more-33566
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  4. #3
    HULDAH, THE PROPHETESS.

    2 Chronicles 34:14-33.

    There is only one mention of Huldah, the prophetess, in the whole Word of God, but that mention is highly honourable. It was in the time of revival, when king Josiah, specially raised up by God to restore His true worship in Jerusalem, had set himself to repair the house of the Lord his God. Before attempting to do this, he had begun to purge Judah and Jerusalem from idolatry, and he had thoroughly cleared the land of all traces of idol worship, unsparingly throwing down the graven images, the sun images, and the molten images, breaking them in pieces, and making dust of them.

    THE SCRIPTURES DISCOVERED.
    While clearing out the rubbish from the house of the Lord, a great discovery was made by Hilkiah, the priest. He found "a book of the law of the Lord given by Moses." So complete had been the apostasy of the children of Judah, that the very Word of God was covered over by the rubbish of the building, and the people seemed not to have missed it! What a type this is of many a dead Church, many an unspiritual Christian, many an unfruitful Sunday School; music, singing, bazaars, entertainments, church‐building-anything and everything taking precedence of the Word of the Living God!

    King Josiah had two faithful friends: Shaphan the scribe, and Hilkiah the priest: without any feeling of reserve, they brought the book of the law to the king. Blessed it was to have a king to whom they could thus speak freely, and to whom they could propose to read from the book of the law! "Shaphan read it before the king," and "when the king had heard the words of the law, he rent his clothes." He let himself be broken by the power of the Word of God. He felt it "quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two‐edged sword." (Heb 4:12.) God's Word was to him as a fire, and as a hammer, that broke the rock in pieces (Jer 23:29); the king acknowledged his Master in the Word which he had heard. So he sent Hilkiah and Shaphan with two others, saying: "Go, enquire of the Lord for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the Word of the Lord to do after all that is written in this book."

    How should the high priest and his companions enquire of the Lord? Who would be nearer God than they? Who would be a better interpreter of His mind? There was no priest higher than Hilkiah. Probably Shaphan stood at the head of the scribes. But both Hilkiah and Shaphan were conscious that there was one in Jerusalem who had a better understanding of the heart of God than they had.

    IT WAS A WOMAN.
    It is perhaps more especially in times of crisis that God raises up godly women to be His interpreters. He can count upon their weakness; they can give Him His place.

    "So Hilkiah, and they that the king had commanded, went to Huldah, the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter); and they communed with her."

    As wife of the keeper of the wardrobe it is very probable that Huldah's earthly talents lay in the way of needlework, and that there was nothing at all extraordinary about her usual life; but men of God were conscious that the Lord was with her, that He spoke to her and through her, and that she understood Him. They could not be in her presence without being brought nearer to God; woman as she was, she was a true Levite. (Deu 10:8.) Nothing is told us of her pedigree or of any other thing whatsoever regarding her but that a king, a high priest, and a learned scribe could get nearer to God through her than by any other means. This speaks much for the saintliness of this woman. This tells a tale which the greatest eloquence could not tell. Huldah must have been a woman of prayer, leading, perhaps, a very retired life, but a life the power of which told upon all who were round about her.

    She got her message from God, and said:

    "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me, Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel."

    Huldah was simply a messenger; she spoke with no personal authority; and yet there was both authority and power in her message. She knew that evil was coming upon Jerusalem, and she knew the reason. She was obliged to tell out the determination of God to bring upon Jerusalem and its inhabitants all the curses that were written in the book of the law, and that because of their idolatry, therefore, His wrath was poured out, and it should not be quenched.

    God gave her also a personal message to the young Josiah:

    "But unto the king of Judah, who sent you to enquire of the Lord, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard; because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest His words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and hast humbled thyself before Me, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before Me; I also have heard thee, saith the Lord. Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof."

    Here was the message. They brought it to the king; and the effect of it was such that king Josiah "sent and gathered together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem," and he "went up to the house of the Lord," and, as the head of his people, he instructed them in the Word of God. The king himself took the book of the law, and with his own voice he "read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the Lord."

    And this was not all. The king meant definite business with his God. He "stood in his place, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep His commandments, and His testimonies, and His statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant that were written in this book. And he caused all that were found in Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to it."

    Such was the effect of one godly woman's fearless prophecy. Nothing more is told us of Huldah. She gave her message, and retired from the scene. But she had left her mark upon her generation; and if she had never spoken another word to the king, or high priest, or Shaphan the scribe, she had, nevertheless, left her impress upon the lives of each of these distinguished men. She had fulfilled her mission, and she might rest in peace. Blessed are the women who are willing to be used or set aside just when God wills. O, how powerfully He can use those who have no choice as to the use which He shall make of them, those who are willing to be nothing and nobody. God raise up Huldahs in this generation, for Jesus' sake.
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm...W25_Huldah.cfm
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  5. #4
    A list of women saints for those interested: http://antiochian.org/women/orthodox-women-saints
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  6. #5
    Who was speaking, was it God? No, it was Paul. Paul was making this statement and we will learn the context as we move forward.
    Oh, good, so we can disregard Romans 13 then.

  7. #6
    The correct question is should ANYONE, man or woman, assume the role/title of Pastor? Is it a biblical title used for authority figures?

    Is “Pastor” A Biblical Title for Church Leaders?
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  8. #7
    There are specific places women are intended to practice their faith, namely; the kitchen
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  9. #8
    Do your homework, The Texan.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    The correct question is should ANYONE, man or woman, assume the role/title of Pastor? Is it a biblical title used for authority figures?

    Is “Pastor” A Biblical Title for Church Leaders?
    Not a serious source^^
    The answer probably lies in the use of another title used in church history, the title of “priest.” The Old Testament priesthood was done away with by Christ, who became our new High Priest, replacing the need for human priests. This is explained in Hebrews chapter 7.
    Unfortunately, as the established church institutions became more corrupt and wanted to exert more influence over the general population, the office of “priest” was setup again with a hierarchy system to rule over the people.
    Nonsense. Ordination of deacons, Acts 6. Appointing of bishops, John 15:16. Presbyters(priests), Acts 14:23.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not a serious source^^
    Nonsense. Ordination of deacons, Acts 6. Appointing of bishops, John 15:16. Presbyters(priests), Acts 14:23.
    Yes, deacons, bishops, presbyters. But not "pastors".
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    Yes, I believe the science of vaccines is settled - Zippyjuan Team

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    Yes, deacons, bishops, presbyters. But not "pastors".
    Presbyters are priests. They do pastoral work-what we now call "pastors". If you go to a parish today (RC or EO), the "pastor" has this title because he is uniquely qualified by studies and ordination to deliver a homily.


    Also:
    https://orthodoxwiki.org/PresbyterOrdination

    Through the sacrament of holy orders, an ordination of a deacon to the priesthood is performed by the bishop. This is done during the Divine Liturgy, immediately following the Great Entrance, showing that the newly-ordained priest is to be involved in the consecration. The congregation will acclaim his ordination by shouting Axios (he is worthy).

    Vestments

    The full vestments of the priest are the sticharion, the epitrachili (stole), the belt, the epimanikia (cuffs), and the phelonion - when not serving at Liturgy, a priest may wear fewer vestments, but at least his stole.
    The sticharion is a long-sleeved tunic, worn by all degrees of clergy, that reaches all the way to the ground. It reminds the wearer that the grace of the Holy Spirit covers him as with a garment of salvation and joy. It has sleeves that are designed to be tucked under the cuffs, unlike those of deacons (and minor orders) which are heavier and designed to be worn over the cuffs.
    The epitrachili (stole - lit. 'around the neck') is the principal vestment of a priest, and without it he cannot serve.
    The epimanikia (cuffs) are worn around the wrists, tied by a long cord, and are also worn by bishops and deacons. They serve the practical purpose of keeping the inner garments out of the way during the services. They also remind the wearer that he serves not by his own strength but with the help of God.
    Duties

    A priest ministers to the people of God in the stead of the bishop. This includes:

    • Celebrating the Divine Liturgy;
    • Celebrating services of the daily cycle (e.g. matins, vespers, etc);
    • Celebrating baptisms, marriages, funerals and any sacraments of the Church.

    Usually, a priest will

    • Hear confessions. In some jurisdictions, this is allowable immediately; in others, being a confessor is something a bishop invites a priest to undertake.

    A priest may be assigned as rector of a parish, a position that will include pastoral ministry, preaching and administration; or may be assigned to be an assistant priest, a position that includes helping to shoulder the pastoral responsibilities, as requested by the rector.
    It should be noted that a priest's conduct does not inhibit the grace of God acting through them. Christ is the one who gives grace, merely using his ministers as 'conduits' to the people.
    Allowances

    Priests are permitted to wear a cassock; this is done as a sign of his suppression of his own tastes, will and desires, and his canonical obedience to God, his bishop and the liturgical and canonical norms of the Church. Priests are also permitted to wear the exoraso (or ryassa). In the Russian tradition, all priests are able to wear the pectoral cross; in other traditions, all priests are able to wear the kalimafhi in services. In jurisdictions that utilise clergy shirts, priests generally wear a clergy shirt with collar.
    During services of the daily cycle, the priest is vested in an exoraso (or ryassa) and stole, and tradition varies as to whether he vests with cuffs, and how often/long he wears the phelonion. During the Liturgy (and when preparing to celebrate the Liturgy), the priest is vested in his full liturgical vestments.
    In addition, to complete his duties, the priest is permitted to touch the Table of Oblation, the Altar, and to move through the Royal Doors.
    Restrictions

    Since the presbyters are assigned by the bishop and belong to the specific congregations they have no authority or services to perform apart from their bishop and their own particular parish community. On the altar table of each parish, there is the cloth called the antimension signed by the bishop, which is the permission to the community to gather and to act as the Church. Without the antimension, the priest and his people cannot function legitimately.
    History

    The earliest organization of the Christian churches in Palestine was similar to that of Jewish synagogues, who were governed by a council of elders (presbyteroi). In Acts 11:30 and 15:22, we see this collegiate system of government in Jerusalem, and in Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains elders in the churches he founded. Initially, these presbyters were apparently identical with the overseers (episkopoi, i.e., bishops), as such passages as Acts 20:17 and Titus 1:5,7 indicate, and the terms were interchangeable.
    Shortly after the New Testament period, with the death of the Apostles, there was a differentiation in the usage of the synonymous terms, giving rise to the appearance of two distinct offices, bishop and presbyter. The bishop was understood mainly as the president of the council of presbyters, and so the bishop came to be distinguished both in honor and in prerogative from the presbyters, who were seen as deriving their authority by means of delegation from the bishop. The distinction between presbyter and bishop is made fairly soon after the Apostolic period, as is seen in the 2nd century writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who uses the terms consistently and clearly to refer to two different offices (along with deacon).
    Initially, each local congregation in the Church had its own bishop. Eventually, as the Church grew, individual congregations no longer were served directly by a bishop. The bishop in a large city would appoint a presbyter to pastor the flock in each congregation, acting as his delegate.
    Married and Monastic priests

    Orthodox priests are divided into two distinct groups, married clergy, and monastic clergy. In the Orthodox Church a married man may be ordained to the priesthood. His marriage, however, must be the first for both him and his wife. He may not remarry, and he must continue in his ministry even if his wife should die.

    If a single man is ordained, he must remain celibate to retain his service. This is often done alongside the candidate taking monastic vows, becoming a hieromonk or priest-monk.
    Contemporary practise

    The Orthodox Church often refers to presbyters in English as priests (priest is etymologically derived from the Greek presbyteros via the Latin presbyter). This usage is seen by some Protestant Christians as stripping the laity of its rightful priestly status, while those who use the term defend its usage by saying that, while they do believe in the priesthood of all believers, they do not believe in the eldership of all believers.
    Presbyters are often referred to as Father (Fr.), though that is not an official title. Rather, it is a term of affection used by Christians for their ordained elders. In this context, a priest's first name is generally used after the word Father.
    Priests are often styled as the Reverend (Rev.) and therefore referred to as the Reverend Father (Rev. Fr.). Higher in bestowed honor and responsibility, Archpriests and Protopresbyters are styled as the Very Reverend (V. Rev.), while Archimandrites can be styled as the Very Reverend (V. Rev.) or as the Right Reverend (Rt. Rev.). It is also appropriate and traditional to refer to a clergyman as "the Priest Name" or "Archpriest Name". This latter practice is especially prominent in Churches with Slavic roots, such as the Church of Russia or the Orthodox Church in America.
    The wife of a priest will also have a special title, usually in the language of the jurisdiction of her husband.
    Rankings of priests

    Sacramentally, all priests are equal. However, they are ranked and serve by seniority according to the date of their ordination.
    Just as with bishops and deacons, there are distinctions of administrative rank among priests. A non-monastic priest can be bestowed the honour of Archpriest or Protopresbyter, while a monastic priest can be given the honour of Archimandrite or, in the Slavic traditions, Igumen. In the Russian Orthodox Church, an archpriest can be awarded the mitre, making him a Mitred Archpriest.
    Sources

    • Liddell & Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, pp. 301, 668
    • The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, p. 2297
    • The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed.), p. 1322
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Oh, good, so we can disregard Romans 13 then.
    This has been posted already but it bears repeating.

    Now having laid this out, what does God’s Word say about men obeying their governments? Please turn your Bible with me to,

    Romans 13:1
    1 “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

    It is our Father who sets up kings and who also removes them (Daniel 2:21). Now while God is in control of the world He has given Satan power over it to fulfill the negative part of God’s plan.

    Romans 13:2
    2 “Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”

    Now Romans 13 is quoted by just about every Pastor out there as proof Christians should do as they are told by their government. However, if you are a student of our Father’s Word you know there is always an if or a condition that applies. Please turn your Bible with me to,

    2 Samuel 23:3
    3 “The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.”

    Who said this, your Father. He said, ‘a man that is to rule over the people must be a just man who rules in fear or reverence of the Lord.’

    Men in power who remove your God given right as a Christian are not ruling with fear of the Lord are they? We are to obey the government as long as their laws do not interfere with our Father’s Laws and as we documented these men are breaking the laws of this nation itself. Further, it was the Apostle Peter who said, “We ought to obey God rather than men,” (Acts 5:29).

    Let us make it extremely clear, any law of men that breaks our Father’s Law is not to be followed. Further, our Father’s Law clearly states a homosexual act is an abomination to Him (Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9). I say this with respect to the situation in Kentucky. God’s Law has not changed “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever,” (Hebrews 13:8).

    As the days draw on it will become more difficult for us to practice our Christian faith. It is true Matthew 5:25 tells us, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him.” However, it is never okay to deny God and as a note to you I feel this is more reserved for the Tribulation of Satan.

    It is these trying days that we are now faced with that will separate the true Christians from the pretend Christians. Christ said Himself, “he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me,” (Matthew 10:38). This means hardships, trials and real persecution. Think about what that message means for a moment. Jesus Christ took up that cross and was crucified on it so that you would have the opportunity at Eternal life.

    We have all enjoyed great times in this nation, but if you are a true believer in Jesus Christ then you better be prepared to stand by Christ even though your rights will be stripped away from you. Christ said when Satan steps foot on earth, “they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake,” (Luke 21:12). What we are seeing right now in Kentucky is only a primer, only a glimpse of what is to come.

    Now I do not know about you, but examples always do it for me and this is very scriptural. 1 Corinthians 10:11 states, “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

    I want you to recall Daniel chapter 3 and what happened there. King Nebuchadnezzar setup a great golden image and made a degree, a law demanding everyone to stop what they are doing fall down and worship this great image when they heard the music play (Daniel 3:9-30). Now this was a degree right from the mouth of the king himself and anyone who failed to heed his command was to be thrown into a great fiery furnace. What did the servants of our Father Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednegodo do? Did they listen to the government and worship a false god or did they listen to their Father?

    I should not have to answer that for you. They listened to their Father, they stood by their Father and because of that they were thrown into a fiery furnace that was heated seven times hotter than necessary. Our God was there in the midst of the fire to protect them and they emerged from the fire when King Nebuchadnezzar called them out. A fire which had no effect on their bodies neither did the smell of smoke pass upon them because your Father stood by those men. Your Father protected them in their hour of deliverance because they were faithful to Him.

    There are many more examples of the prophets of old who dis-obeyed the government because the government overstepped their bounds and violated God’s Law. This is where the true soldiers of our Father emerge. Those who will stand for God no matter the cost.

    Place on the Gospel armor my friends the time draws nigh.
    http://worldeventsandthebible.com/20...-the-land.html
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Presbyters are priests. They do pastoral work-what we now call "pastors". If you go to a parish today (RC or EO), the "pastor" has this title because he is uniquely qualified by studies and ordination to deliver a homily.
    I don't know how EO churches operate but in the RCC, any priest or deacon (not just the pastor) can deliver the homily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Do your homework, The Texan.
    Ephesians 5:23, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

    Just as Jesus has authority over men, it would be as pointless for men to preach to Jesus, as it would be for women to preach to men, for it is men who have authority over women.

    Amen.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Ephesians 5:23, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

    Just as Jesus has authority over men, it would be as pointless for men to preach to Jesus, as it would be for women to preach to men, for it is men who have authority over women.

    Amen.
    From above post:

    Ephesians 5:24
    24 “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

    This does not mean the man lords over his wife. The man is to lead the family unit by example and that example is the one Christ set for us (1 Corinthians 11:3).

    Let us continue.

    Ephesians 5:25
    25 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

    The love for a husband is compared to Christ’s love for the church which is simply the many membered body of Christ being you and I. Christ loved us so much He gave His own life so that we might live if we believe on Him. Think about that for a moment. That is the love a husband is supposed to have for his wife. When you understand that, then you will know without a doubt the man is not to lord over the wife or treat her with a lower level of respect. Remember, Christ is our example and He came to be a servant to us.

    Ephesians 5:28
    28 “So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.”

    Love your wife as yourself.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    From above post:
    "For the husband is the head of the wife" is pretty clear, that man has authority over women.

    There's not a lot of room for ambiguity there. Unless of course you're a Supreme Court justice.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I don't know how EO churches operate but in the RCC, any priest or deacon (not just the pastor) can deliver the homily.
    Ya, deacons can deliver teh homily too. In that bit you bolded, I left out "...and carry out pastoral duties". Sorry, suz. Nice catch. ~hugs~ Stuff like confession, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    "For the husband is the head of the wife" is pretty clear, that man has authority over women.

    There's not a lot of room for ambiguity there. Unless of course you're a Supreme Court justice.
    LOL That's another one schismatics and scripture lawyers like to bastardize. In marriage the husband is simply first among equals. It's not a position of "superiority'. (notice in verse 25 Paul tells husbands to love wives as Christ loved the Church-a sort of love willing to endure suffering unto death for the other's sake) It's a position of leadership and responsibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Ephesians 5:23, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

    Just as Jesus has authority over men, it would be as pointless for men to preach to Jesus, as it would be for women to preach to men, for it is men who have authority over women.

    Amen.
    No, that's not what you meant. You meant to be snarky as if there were never women seving in the church, only in the kitchen. Men do not have authority over women. A husband has authority over his wife. Big difference.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Presbyters are priests.
    No, they are not. The priesthood was done away with after Christ.

    Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:27-28)

    Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
    (Hebrews 10:11-12)
    Christ is the new high priest after the order of Melchizedek

    And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
    (Hebrews 5:6-10)
    Today, all believers are now "priests"

    you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
    (1 Peter 2:5-9)
    Jesus is also the only pastor/shepherd:

    "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (emphasis added)
    (John 10:14-16)
    Senior Pastor:

    Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21)
    He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 2:24-25)
    The whole concept of libertarianism actually can be seen here, as the individual in the Body of Christ has equal rights to all other individuals:

    For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

    If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

    If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be?

    As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor.

    And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment.

    But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
    (1 Corinthians 12:13-25)
    Anyone who assumes an unbiblical title of authority over the church is an imposter, as that position belongs only to Jesus Christ:

    "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep.
    (John 10:1-2)
    The very words of Jesus commanding his disciples not to rule with authority over fellow believers:

    "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them "Rabbi.'

    "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

    The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
    (Matthew 23:5-12)
    Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

    Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
    (Matthew 20:25-28)
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    No, that's not what you meant. You meant to be snarky as if there were never women seving in the church, only in the kitchen. Men do not have authority over women. A husband has authority over his wife. Big difference.
    Timothy 2:12

    I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

    Now, shhh.

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    No, they are not. The priesthood was done away with after Christ.






    Christ is the new high priest after the order of Melchizedek



    Today, all believers are now "priests"



    Jesus is also the only pastor/shepherd:



    Senior Pastor:





    The whole concept of libertarianism actually can be seen here, as the individual in the Body of Christ has equal rights to all other individuals:



    Anyone who assumes an unbiblical title of authority over the church is an imposter, as that position belongs only to Jesus Christ:



    The very words of Jesus commanding his disciples not to rule with authority over fellow believers:
    All ahistorical claims made up by a sola scripturist with no grasp of the historical context of the text.^^ I'll take real saintly and scholarly interpretation over yours, pope Created4 I, thnx.

    ETA:
    Why scripture cannot be understood properly outside the context of Church Tradition:
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 11-02-2017 at 07:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Timothy 2:12

    I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

    We're not in church.
    Last edited by euphemia; 10-30-2017 at 01:59 AM.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Timothy 2:12

    I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens



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  29. #25
    There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers.


    Except in the Church this is not really debated at all, hotly or coldly.
    In the Church this has been a settled issue for two millennia.
    Outside of the Church this is a question that people who choose not to belong to the Church like to ask. And they are free to explore that for themselves as much as they want, as long as they keep that self-exploration outside of the Church.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #26
    A woman's place is in the home.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    So what, exactly does that mean?

    Does Timothy 2:12 mean what it says or something different?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    So what, exactly does that mean?

    Does Timothy 2:12 mean what it says or something different?
    It means you need to study the Bible. You need to know the subject matter before you take it and run with it.

    Questions to ask yourself:

    1. What is the subject?

    2. To whom is Paul referring to in the subject.

    3. Is this regarding the false teaching in Ephesus?

    4. Is "authority" poorly translated? (Greek word “authentein” )

    This is why it crucial to rightly divide the word.

    I like this Bible Study and have learned so much by studying the Bible with a King James Version Companion Bible and The Strong's Concordance.

    http://worldeventsandthebible.com/bible-study
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It means you need to study the Bible. You need to know the subject matter before you take it and run with it.

    Questions to ask yourself:

    1. What is the subject?

    2. To whom is Paul referring to in the subject.

    3. Is this regarding the false teaching in Ephesus?

    4. Is "authority" poorly translated? (Greek word “authentein” )

    This is why it crucial to rightly divide the word.
    There are only two questions you need to ask.

    1. What has the Church, through its saints, universally taught about this for the last 2000 years?
    2. What makes me think I know better than several hundred high-profile people who literally - not figuratively, literally - devoted their entire lives to answering these questions, or the millions who went down this same road before me and all agreed that what the Church has always taught on the issue is actually the work of the Holy Spirit?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    There are specific places women are intended to practice their faith, namely; the kitchen
    If you can find a verse about sandwiches, I would be interested in purchasing a refrigerator magnet.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

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