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  1. #1

    Which form of taxation is best?

    Ron Paul - The Un-American income tax

    What would you replace the income tax with? Consumption tax? Flat Tax Rate?
    "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." - Founding Father Thomas Jefferson



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  3. #2
    Excise tax and non-protectionist tariffs. Additionally, cut spending.

    What would you replace the income tax with? Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by uncharted View Post
    What would you replace the income tax with? Consumption tax? Flat Tax Rate?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 10-25-2017 at 02:20 AM.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Excise tax and non-protectionist tariffs. Additionally, cut spending.

    What would you replace the income tax with? Thanks!
    All tariffs are protectionist. They protect domestic producers from foreign competition. They are a hidden tax- hidden inside the prices we pay for goods and services.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-25-2017 at 12:55 PM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    All tariffs are protectionist. They protect domestic producers from foreign competition. They are a hidden tax- hidden inside the prices we pay for goods and services.
    Indeed, because tariffs are added to the price of items and are passed on to the consumer. It was the view that consumption taxes like tariffs burdened the poor much more than the rich that was the impetus for the 1894 income tax.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Indeed, because tariffs are added to the price of items and are passed on to the consumer. It was the view that consumption taxes like tariffs burdened the poor much more than the rich that was the impetus for the 1894 income tax.
    Pray tell, was this ‘view’ popular? Universal? Pimped and promoted by committees and editorials? Incorrect?

    Protectionist policies are foolish, yes. Being promised that income for the majority would not be taxed and the tax would not exceed a marginal percentage in any case, and the monstrosity it is today... why, it would almost seem silly to compare some 20% being taken before you see it and the added cost of select industrial products or services as a result of tariffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Pray tell, was this ‘view’ popular? Universal? Pimped and promoted by committees and editorials? Incorrect?
    It was popular enough to get the 16th Amendment ratified.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Indeed, because tariffs are added to the price of items and are passed on to the consumer. It was the view that consumption taxes like tariffs burdened the poor much more than the rich that was the impetus for the 1894 income tax.
    Exactly, to get the wealthy to "pay their fair share" and not to, as is now the case, furthermore burden those whom are non-well-to-do. Besides this in many respects income taxes operate exactly like tariffs, basically, as internal tariffs on all profit making activities and objects.
    Last edited by Weston White; 10-25-2017 at 11:45 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

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    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    All tariffs are protectionist. They protect domestic producers from foreign competition. They are a hidden tax- hidden inside the prices we pay for goods and services.
    Not always, especially if there are no domestic producers. They can be punitive or for retribution. And they can also reduce the burden of internal taxation on the productive citizens.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not always, especially if there are no domestic producers. They can be punitive or for retribution. And they can also reduce the burden of internal taxation on the productive citizens.
    Kind of hard for me to pretend I care about people paying a higher price for imported junk that I am not going to buy . So , yes , a tax that does not effect me is the best tax .

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Kind of hard for me to pretend I care about people paying a higher price for imported junk that I am not going to buy . So , yes , a tax that does not effect me is the best tax .
    Tariffs effect all kinds of goods- not just "junk you don't buy anyways". We import oil for energy. We import foods. Domestic manufacturers use imported parts to produce their goods. They reduce competition for domestic producers- allowing them to get away with less efficiency and allowing them to charge higher prices than they otherwise would. And if we institute high tariffs, countries we trade with will likely impose tariffs on goods we sell to them- costing exporters jobs. It is a mistake to think you would not be impacted by high tariffs on imported goods.

    At current spending levels, tariffs would have to be 200% and cover everything we import- including energy and food.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by uncharted View Post
    Ron Paul - The Un-American income tax

    What would you replace the income tax with? Consumption tax? Flat Tax Rate?
    Fed govt should have no need to fund anything other than what is in Article One Section Eight , all that needs determined is how much that would take. Then it could be determined how it could be paid for. No need to use current models . If you leave social security and medicare as is those are separate taxes specifically for those and should not go into the general fund . States , counties and cities have taxes . Worst taxes are pretty much some that exist now in many places , property tax , sales tax on food and utilities , Federal income tax etc . Nearly all plans for flat tax actually raise tax on many .
    Do something Danke

  14. #12
    Nearly all tax plans put forth by people suck , because they drastically raise taxes on many . Spending is what needs drastically cut . Then you could easily develop plans to pay for things without huge tax increases .

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Nearly all tax plans put forth by people suck , because they drastically raise taxes on many . Spending is what needs drastically cut . Then you could easily develop plans to pay for things without huge tax increases .
    Pretty sure the op isn't really interested in the discussion. It looks like another hand grenade being dropped similar to the ancap thread that went 20 pages or so. And the same op didn't show back up after dropping that grenade either.

    I wouldnt waste the time with this one. It's been discussed a thousand times already.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 10-24-2017 at 12:33 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Pretty sue the op isn't really interested in the discussion. It looks like another hand grenade being dropped similar to the ancap thread that went 20 pages or so. And the same op didn't show back up after dropping that grenade either.

    I wouldnt waste the time with this one. It's been discussed a thousand times already.
    I figured he was just getting his homework done for free . Also , in before the crazy land tax people .
    Last edited by oyarde; 10-24-2017 at 03:10 PM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I figured he was just getting his homework done for free .
    Theye don't give homework assignments about what Ron Paul thinks.

  18. #16
    Isn't this like asking which form of theft is best?



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  20. #17
    Land.

    Just like gold and silver are biblical money. Giving produce from your land, a concept around since bible times, is essentially a land tax.

    But the powerful never want to go back to either because printing money allows them to steal, and avoiding wealth tax (property tax) allows them to keep it.

    By using gold and silver the rich couldn't steal from the poor as easily as they do now.

    By taxing property instead of consumption and wages, the poor would acquire wealth faster, which also threatens the rich.

    A regressive tax system pushes people to the margins of survival. Easier to manage as a slave class.

    Not a big mystery.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 10-24-2017 at 12:35 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  21. #18
    A lot of people like to say "The top 1% pay half the income taxes" or "The poor don't pay anything in taxes."

    But what about when looked at in terms of % of wealth/income rather than just a flat number?

    This article has some great tables and charts to see the truth more clearly:

    http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
    Wealth or income class Mean household income Mean household net worth
    Top 1 percent $1,679,000 $18,623,400
    Top 20 percent $257,200 $2,260,300
    60th-80th percentile $76,500 $236,400
    40th-60th percentile $46,000 $68,100
    Bottom 40 percent $20,300 -$10,800

    So, that table shows mean (average) wealth and income.

    Now this chart shows real taxes, meaning ALL taxes, payroll, sales, state and local as a PERCENT of income. How "level" is the playing field? Are the poor rich people paying more than their share?



    I don't think so. They aren't really paying any more than anyone else as far as pecentage of income.

    AND WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT PERHAPS TAXES SHOULD BE BASED ON WEALTH INSTEAD OF WAGES..

    ...well in that case, if you believe that, like I do, then the very rich pay very little.

    One might even say, "well, poor people pay less".

    But AS A PERCENTAGE OF INCOME they also pay interest on their debt. If you add the interest at say 10% on the bottom 40%'s debt level, it easily brings them on par with other brackets at around 30% of income going towards tax/debt.

    Rich people might have substantial debt as well, here and there, but they also have favorable interest rates.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 10-24-2017 at 01:16 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  22. #19
    I prefer the Ron Paul Flat Tax:




    #TaxationIsTheft

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    I prefer the Ron Paul Flat Tax:




    #TaxationIsTheft
    I could probably get behind 0 to 1 percent. With Fed income tax eliminated and spending cuts .

  24. #21
    Property tax is worst.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Property tax is worst.
    I think so .

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Excise tax and non-protectionist tarrifs. Additionally, cut spending.

    What would you replace the income tax with? Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Pretty sure the op isn't really interested in the discussion. It looks like another hand grenade being dropped similar to the ancap thread that went 20 pages or so. And the same op didn't show back up after dropping that grenade either.

    I wouldnt waste the time with this one. It's been discussed a thousand times already.
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I figured he was just getting his homework done for free . Also , in before the crazy land tax people .
    @Natural Citizen, @oyarde

    I apologize. I’m not well-versed in these topics that I’ve been asking so I'm trying to learn from the wisdom of others. That said, here is my proposal:

    1. Massively reduce government spending (bring an end to the countless expenditures that the government can’t afford such as Social Security, Medicare, Department of Education, etc.), which I reckon that virtually everyone here supports.

    2. What to replace the federal income tax (how to collect the taxes) with is where I'm "stuck" because I don't have a conclusive stance on which form is the least destructive form of taxation in said hypothetical situation. For now I lean towards either

    A) A consumption tax with food exempt (encourage savings, investments, avoid taxing production).

    or

    B) A 1% flat rate tax.

    *Voluntary donations and fines would also be applicable with either one.
    "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." - Founding Father Thomas Jefferson

  27. #24
    Which form of taxation is best?
    Trick question.

    None.

    All taxation is theft.

    Proper phrasing:

    Which form of tax is least worst?



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  29. #25
    oh fun, I get to play king!!!!!!!!!! my favorite game.

    So assuming can't just abolish the US entirely, which would be my preference. So, I'll pretend I'm ruling the US as is with the intention of keeping it intact.

    Welll...... let's see.
    1. Property tax, but each person or eligible dependent is allocated 25,000 property appraisal exemption which can only be applied to one residence, which must be registered as primary residence. So, if your house is valued at 150,000, and you are married, and have 2 kids... Congrats you can while in that situation deduct 100,000 off the appraised value, and only be "taxed" the portion not covered. At 70+ years of age, no property tax shall be charged on any current active primary residence one has lived in for at least 3 years. Also this deduction would not allow any portion of the household rented be eligible for the exemption, and the 25,000 dollar would be adjusted to approximate the area utilized by dependents/spouse only. Adult children over the age of 25 will not be allowed to be claimed even if dependent unless permanent guardianship has been granted to the owner(s) of the property. All property tax dollars are to be pooled and distributed according to population density of the governed area, and consideration will be given to provide for extra funding to facilitate transport services in rural school districts. Under no circumstance can the 25,000/ person property tax allowance/exemption result in in a negative property tax situation, as in 0 is the lower bound for taxable property tax, if one had 4 children and a spouse living in a 100,000 dollar house that would result in a -50000 property tax assessment obligation, but no refund or credit would be generated.

    2. Sales Tax(vast bulk of taxes would be collected this way). Essential basic food items would not be taxed at any level. The goobermint will send annually (or refill current card) to all citizens a sales tax exemption card to be scanned at POS valued at 4000.00. In the case of a married couple or if one has dependents the value would be merged to a single card upon request(married sharing tax exemption) As in 4000.00 dollars worth of taxable purchases can be excluded from taxation / annum, not 4000.00 dollars worth of taxes. And this "exemption" Can not be applied to Gas Tax, gambling tax, etc... only to items not subject to other tax schemes. One will simply scan the exemption card before swiping your debit card or paying with your favorite cryptocurrency.

    3. Gas Tax... Essentially a different sales tax calculated based on cost of road maintenance and construction, or tax based on mileage/vehicle type as would be necessary if electric cars take over.
    4. Gambling Tax..
    5. Drug, alcohol tax.
    6. Prostitution tax.
    7. Capital Gains tax of 15% on CApital gains over 50,000 in a given year. If a person is over 65 and has held an investment over 5 years up to 100,000 in capital gains / year tax free.

    No town, city, state, or any other governing body other than the Federal government may levy taxes on any citizen. All taxes are a function of the god entity known as the federal government. Funds will be distributed by the federal government to local bodies based on a standardized criteria. Large projects such as bridges, and core infrastructure deemed in the "general" interest and benefit of the region can be paid for directly from the federal purse.





    That's about it.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    oh fun, I get to play king!!!!!!!!!! my favorite game.

    So assuming can't just abolish the US entirely, which would be my preference. So, I'll pretend I'm ruling the US as is with the intention of keeping it intact.

    Welll...... let's see.
    1. Property tax, but each person or eligible dependent is allocated 25,000 property appraisal exemption which can only be applied to one residence, which must be registered as primary residence. So, if your house is valued at 150,000, and you are married, and have 2 kids... Congrats you can while in that situation deduct 100,000 off the appraised value, and only be "taxed" the portion not covered. At 70+ years of age, no property tax shall be charged on any current active primary residence one has lived in for at least 3 years. Also this deduction would not allow any portion of the household rented be eligible for the exemption, and the 25,000 dollar would be adjusted to approximate the area utilized by dependents/spouse only. Adult children over the age of 25 will not be allowed to be claimed even if dependent unless permanent guardianship has been granted to the owner(s) of the property. All property tax dollars are to be pooled and distributed according to population density of the governed area, and consideration will be given to provide for extra funding to facilitate transport services in rural school districts. Under no circumstance can the 25,000/ person property tax allowance/exemption result in in a negative property tax situation, as in 0 is the lower bound for taxable property tax, if one had 4 children and a spouse living in a 100,000 dollar house that would result in a -50000 property tax assessment obligation, but no refund or credit would be generated.

    2. Sales Tax(vast bulk of taxes would be collected this way). Essential basic food items would not be taxed at any level. The goobermint will send annually (or refill current card) to all citizens a sales tax exemption card to be scanned at POS valued at 4000.00. In the case of a married couple or if one has dependents the value would be merged to a single card upon request(married sharing tax exemption) As in 4000.00 dollars worth of taxable purchases can be excluded from taxation / annum, not 4000.00 dollars worth of taxes. And this "exemption" Can not be applied to Gas Tax, gambling tax, etc... only to items not subject to other tax schemes. One will simply scan the exemption card before swiping your debit card or paying with your favorite cryptocurrency.

    3. Gas Tax... Essentially a different sales tax calculated based on cost of road maintenance and construction, or tax based on mileage/vehicle type as would be necessary if electric cars take over.
    4. Gambling Tax..
    5. Drug, alcohol tax.
    6. Prostitution tax.
    7. Capital Gains tax of 15% on CApital gains over 50,000 in a given year. If a person is over 65 and has held an investment over 5 years up to 100,000 in capital gains / year tax free.

    No town, city, state, or any other governing body other than the Federal government may levy taxes on any citizen. All taxes are a function of the god entity known as the federal government. Funds will be distributed by the federal government to local bodies based on a standardized criteria. Large projects such as bridges, and core infrastructure deemed in the "general" interest and benefit of the region can be paid for directly from the federal purse.





    That's about it.
    NOT funny.
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  31. #27
    1. Property taxes--state tax, only upon commercial properties that are financially productive.

    2. Vice taxes--federal or state tax, limited taxes upon gambling, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc.

    3. Sales taxes--state tax, at POS only.

    4. Tariffs--federal tax, capped and limited use only, a strictly implemented tax.

    5. Excises--federal or state, taxes on luxuries, capped and limited use only, a strictly implemented tax.

    6. Income taxes--federal or state, taxes reach only true wealth that is derived from financial and professional business minded engagements--i.e., not mere livelihoods.

    7. Direct taxes--federal or state, taxes upon persons, property, activities and livelihoods, imposed only during bona fide exigent circumstances and in accordance with the U.S. Constitution.

    Guidelines and further maxims:

    The imposition of all such taxes are only to acquire projected budgetary requirements only, not to inhibit or encourage certain behaviors or activities.

    Exceptions or relaxation of taxation rules, e.g., excessive or prolonged taxation, shall only be legally permissible during times of realized invasion or Congressionally enacted times of war.

    States shall not be permitted to doubly tax beyond an established threshold of an activity or object of taxation that falls under federal supremacy and is or shall be taxed nationally.

    All interest accrued upon revenue acquired from withholding through 'stoppage at the source', shall be annually credited against the taxes due for all subjects of the taxation.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  32. #28
    I absolutely hate capital gains taxation. This money was previously taxed.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Root View Post
    I absolutely hate capital gains taxation. This money was previously taxed.
    No, what's taxed is the appreciation. If you buy stock for $100 with after-tax dollars and later sell it for $500, only the $400 gain is taxed.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, what's taxed is the appreciation. If you buy stock for $100 with after-tax dollars and later sell it for $500, only the $400 gain is taxed.
    Penalized for making good investments.

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