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Thread: What if Carthage had won the Punic Wars?

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    Default What if Carthage had won the Punic Wars?




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    Without Rome, Christianity would've spread even more easily across Europe. It isn't like Christianity only spread because Rome welcomed Christianity with open arms. Indeed, the "barbarians" that eventually defeated the Western Empire were in fact Christians already. The big difference would be that there wouldn't be any Roman Catholicism. Whether that is good or bad depends on your view.
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    You'd actually have to kill Jesus to get Christianity as it is today.....so....yeah

    No Romans no New Testament.
    Last edited by Lamp; 10-18-2017 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Without Rome, Christianity would've spread even more easily across Europe. It isn't like Christianity only spread because Rome welcomed Christianity with open arms. Indeed, the "barbarians" that eventually defeated the Western Empire were in fact Christians already. The big difference would be that there wouldn't be any Roman Catholicism. Whether that is good or bad depends on your view.
    Wouldn't you need Rome to foster the spread of Arianism as well?

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    Well the Punic wars were basically the greed of Rome for Sicily . The Carthagenian's had plenty of time ( decades ) to build and arm a professional standing army to use against the invading roman legions yet they did not . In the end , while invading the north of Italy ( an invasion they had no ability to reinforce ) they could not even protect the home territory . Complete military failure , more continual incompetence than roman victory . After 100 years of dumb , the 50k remaining citizens of Carthage were sold into slavery and it was burnt to the ground for three weeks . Carthage itself sat on neolithic village sites .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    You'd actually have to kill Jesus to get Christianity as it is today.....so....yeah

    No Romans no New Testament.
    The Pharisees would have been happy to do it by themselves.
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    So , they could never have won , constantly outdone by an enemy not overly bright but much fiercer .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamp View Post
    Wouldn't you need Rome to foster the spread of Arianism as well?
    I don't think so. Christianity spread in its first 300 years despite Rome, not because of it. Arianism was highly popular in two place, North Africa and the Germanic tribes. It would probably have remained so without Roman armies to actively suppress it. Other forms of Christianity spread through Europe and Asia. You would probably have ended up with something more akin to the Orthodox Church being the major denomination of Christianity.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    There could be 10,000 bishops spewing 10,000 versions of Christianity; so similar to America, but richly pagan. Icthys would be another cult among thousands absorbed into local legend.
    In sorrow, we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Without Rome, Christianity would've spread even more easily across Europe. It isn't like Christianity only spread because Rome welcomed Christianity with open arms. Indeed, the "barbarians" that eventually defeated the Western Empire were in fact Christians already. The big difference would be that there wouldn't be any Roman Catholicism. Whether that is good or bad depends on your view.
    Makes one wonder what Punic Catholicism would have been like. And yes it's silly he thinks Christianity needed the violence of an empire to spread. It might have spread farther more quickly given the Carthaginian obsession/skill with trade and exploration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    There could be 10,000 bishops spewing 10,000 versions of Christianity; so similar to America, but richly pagan. Icthys would be another cult among thousands absorbed into local legend.
    I doubt it only because Christianity is a missionary religion. It thrives on converts unlike most pagan religions.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    Makes one wonder what Punic Catholicism would have been like. And yes it's silly he thinks Christianity needed the violence of an empire to spread. It might have spread farther more quickly given the Carthaginian obsession/skill with trade and exploration.
    That is an excellent point. Carthaginian trade would have built easily followed routes into the heart of all of North Africa and Europe as easily as Rome, if not more so. Not being associated with an imperial power might have contributed to the willingness of people to listen.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    I doubt it only because Christianity is a missionary religion. It thrives on converts unlike most pagan religions.
    Its a syncretic religion.
    In sorrow, we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    I doubt it only because Christianity is a missionary religion. It thrives on converts unlike most pagan religions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Its a syncretic religion.
    How much are those because of Christianity being absorbed and influenced by the Roman empire, and would the same effects have happened with the Carthaginian scenario?
    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  17. #16

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    Syncretism's the norm for religions, especially when missionaries run up against language barriers. Historically its been easier to get your point across by borrowing approximates from other religions or customs of the natives. You get wacky, but very practical, religions that way... (Roman Catholicism, anyone?) Buddhists only took an interest in questions of the "afterlife," when they saw Nestorian Christians were getting favors for praying for dead Emperors. :P
    In sorrow, we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!






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