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Thread: Trump to Terminate Sketchy ACA Subsidies

  1. #1
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    Trump to Terminate Sketchy ACA Subsidies

    And tens of thousands will suffer and die! Or at least that's what the talking heads will say.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tru...cid=spartandhp



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  3. #2
    It made Jimmy Kimmel cry.

    Trump has more political courage and creativity than anyone in Washington right. He warned Congress. They had a choice to come up with a bill or he would do it himself, and he is keeiping his word.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  4. #3
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    Trump is fearless. What a tweet!


  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    And tens of thousands will suffer and die! Or at least that's what the talking heads will say.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tru...cid=spartandhp
    the timing is great with the EO signed yesterday that will open up the markets outside the exchange. so there should be new less expensive options for people to move to once the subsidies stop.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    It made Jimmy Kimmel cry.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    I don't think this is a good move by Trump. He's not fixing it but now he owns it.


    Google's headlines:

    Throwing a bomb into the insurance markets, Trump now owns the broken health-care system.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...b041a74e75d48/


    The real reason Trump is so dead set on crushing Obamacare
    (because he's a racist, according to the writer)

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politi...ies/index.html

    Trump’s Obamacare Order Will Deepen Health Inequality

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/o...insurance.html

    I'm waiting for the democrats to start sending out universal health care trial balloons. I think it's almost a certainty that the 2020 candidate runs on it, and will win. Although the economic crash that's probably going to hit before then will change the parameters.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I don't think this is a good move by Trump. He's not fixing it but now he owns it.

    .
    He doesn't have to fix it. He just has to make people believe they're going to be better off than they were.

  9. #8
    Why wouldn't people be better off? Being told the truth about the high cost of mandate insurance is a good thing. And why would someone with high premiums not like having the freedom to shop for cheaper insurance?
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



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  11. #9
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    They illegally pulled funds from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to pay these subsidies. I hope Trump repeats this fact ad nauseum.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/...-its-true.html
    Last edited by AuH20; 10-13-2017 at 09:41 AM.

  12. #10
    Maybe next Trump will end subsidies for vaccines. What then?
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  13. #11
    And end the mandate penalty? Good move. The whole healthcare system need to feel some pressure or else they would never lower their prices. They have been living high of the hog while every other industry have been forced to adapt to the new reality of our economy.

    Good on him even though id prefer he end the individual mandate 1st

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    They illegally pulled funds from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to pay these subsidies. I hope Trump repeats this fact ad nauseum.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/...-its-true.html
    The media isn't parroting that. Gee I wonder why.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Why wouldn't people be better off? Being told the truth about the high cost of mandate insurance is a good thing. And why would someone with high premiums not like having the freedom to shop for cheaper insurance?
    I agree that the changes are good, but they are microscopic. Overall people are going to be worse off, just not quite as worse off.

    Until they remove the pre-existing condition mandate, they haven't done squat. The pre-existing condition mandate is the core of Obamacare.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I agree that the changes are good, but they are microscopic. Overall people are going to be worse off, just not quite as worse off.

    Until they remove the pre-existing condition mandate, they haven't done squat. The pre-existing condition mandate is the core of Obamacare.
    Despite the histrionics of the headline the NYT article actually seems to point out some painful economic truths. Healthy people will pay less, sick people will pay more. This language is chilling:

    Obamacare tries to build large, comprehensive “risk pools” in which the healthy and the unhealthy commingle. This has never been perfectly achieved: There are too many channels that allow low-risk individuals and groups to avoid keeping costs down for the unhealthy. This executive order dredges new channels for the healthy to segregate their costs from people with expensive care needs.
    Last edited by angelatc; 10-13-2017 at 11:32 AM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Despite the histrionics of the headline the NYT article actually seems to point out some painful economic truths. Healthy people will pay less, sick people will pay more. This language is chilling:
    Obamacare tries to build large, comprehensive “risk pools” in which the healthy and the unhealthy commingle. This has never been perfectly achieved: There are too many channels that allow low-risk individuals and groups to avoid keeping costs down for the unhealthy. This executive order dredges new channels for the healthy to segregate their costs from people with expensive care needs.
    Does the EO say that these health associations can't discriminate based on health status?
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  18. #16
    Expect insurance premiums to rise even more.



    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-13-2017 at 12:57 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Expect insurance premiums to rise even more.
    Expect zippy to lie about everything.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Despite the histrionics of the headline the NYT article actually seems to point out some painful economic truths. Healthy people will pay less, sick people will pay more. This language is chilling:
    What part of Rand Paul's 6 explanations that he has given in the last day that said that is wrong do you disagree with?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Expect zippy to lie about everything.
    You expect premiums to go down? Cutting subsidies means less money to the insurance companies. They will raise rates to make up the difference. If any plan changes mean fewer young, healthy people signing up for insurance, they will have to raise the rates on everybody still left. Yes- rates will be going up.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You expect premiums to go down? Cutting subsidies means less money to the insurance companies. They will raise rates to make up the difference. If any plan changes mean fewer young, healthy people signing up for insurance, they will have to raise the rates on everybody still left. Yes- rates will be going up.
    Some plans will go up others will go down.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What part of Rand Paul's 6 explanations that he has given in the last day that said that is wrong do you disagree with?
    My comment wasn't disagreing with Rand - it was mocking the NYT.

    I do disagree with Rand about allowing people to buy across state lines. That's federalization, taking rights away from the states. Also it will only drive prices up in rural areas, not lower them in high density areas.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    Does the EO say that these health associations can't discriminate based on health status?
    Yes it does. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post

    I do disagree with Rand about allowing people to buy across state lines. That's federalization, taking rights away from the states. Also it will only drive prices up in rural areas, not lower them in high density areas.


    I don't agree with the first part. But I do think allowing people to buy insurance across state lines is very overrated. Good on Rand for getting a GOP talking point into law. But it really doesn't do much because of how hard it is to set up an insurance network.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 10-13-2017 at 02:10 PM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You expect premiums to go down? Cutting subsidies means less money to the insurance companies. They will raise rates to make up the difference. If any plan changes mean fewer young, healthy people signing up for insurance, they will have to raise the rates on everybody still left. Yes- rates will be going up.
    Rates for sick people will go up, rates for healthy people will go down. Boo $#@!in hoo.



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  29. #25
    http://www.npr.org/2017/10/12/557444...or-health-care

    MCEVERS: So what does the order do?

    KODJAK: Well, I have been told several times today that the order itself doesn't really do anything to the health care system.

    MCEVERS: OK.

    KODJAK: But what it does do is direct three different federal agencies to look at their regulations around health insurance to try to make it easier for trade groups and small businesses to work together to negotiate with insurance companies for better deals. And those companies can be in different states. And they theoretically could get cheaper insurance than they do now. Small businesses today have to buy their insurance through their local Obamacare exchange.

    MCEVERS: Right. I mean, it sounds like a reasonable concept. Is - will it work?

    KODJAK: Well, there are a couple of challenges. And the first one is legal. There are a whole bunch of people - health care analysts, lawyers - that are saying essentially there are significant legal hurdles to creating what these - they're called association health plans - in a way that makes them cheaper than insurance that's already on the market. And these are people - Democrats and Republicans.

    What would have to happen is the administration has to allow those small businesses to be governed by the rules of large employers. That would pretty much reverse a long history of legal precedent in how that law has been understood. The order says this outright. It encourages the agencies, as they say, to modernize their interpretation of the law. The second challenge is just that these plans are only cheaper if they cut benefits or exclude people who are sick or small businesses with a sicker employee group.

    MCEVERS: I mean, why is that? Wouldn't their combined market power give them advantage - an advantage?

    KODJAK: Well, not necessarily because today, small businesses already are sort of combining their market power through the Obamacare exchanges. They're buying in a group. All the businesses in D.C., for example - in Washington, D.C. - they have to buy on the Washington exchange. So there's not really a new strength in numbers that would come with these association plans. The advantage only comes if they include companies with younger people and leave out older, sicker people.

    MCEVERS: These association plans weren't the only thing in this executive order, I understand. What else did the president put in there?

    KODJAK: So he's trying to loosen rules regarding short-term insurance plans. And these are policies - right now they're limited to only 90 days, and they'd be good for up to a year. And I looked at some today on the market that are available now, and they have the deductibles as high as $10,000. They don't necessarily cover prescription drugs. And they don't have to cover you if you have a health history. So they're not the greatest insurance, and they don't fit the Obamacare consumer protections.

    MCEVERS: Overall so far, what has been the reaction to this executive order?

    KODJAK: Well, as I said, there's some skepticism about whether or not it's legal or can accomplish...

    MCEVERS: Right.

    KODJAK: ...Anything. And then there's this figure that it could split the market again to where it was before the Affordable Care Act was passed, which is, people who are healthy and young can get really cheap insurance, but people who need health care will find it really hard, expensive or out of reach.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Well, not necessarily because today, small businesses already are sort of combining their market power through the Obamacare exchanges. They're buying in a group. All the businesses in D.C., for example - in Washington, D.C. - they have to buy on the Washington exchange. So there's not really a new strength in numbers that would come with these association plans. The advantage only comes if they include companies with younger people and leave out older, sicker people."
    That, of course, has nothing to do with promoting associations. The issue is for self-employed people and 1099 workers who don't get group insurance through a business.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    That, of course, has nothing to do with promoting associations. The issue is for self-employed people and 1099 workers who don't get group insurance through a business.
    The real change isn't the associations idea- that basically already happens with the exchanges- individuals achieving group purchasing discounts. The big change is the allowing of short term policies (no longer than a year) which let insurance companies sell policies which cover little if anything. That removes such people out of the bigger pool of insured people (the healthy subsidize the costs of the older and sick) and leaves those who cost the insurance companies more money. That means they will have to charge higher rates.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I do disagree with Rand about allowing people to buy across state lines. That's federalization, taking rights away from the states.
    The states aren't preventing insurance companies from going across state lines, THE FEDS ARE!!!

    ...and it is Constitutional, right? I mean, that is the actual purpose of the Interstate Commerce Clause, right? Is there any other area in the market where the government has intervened and disallowed companies from purchasing legal goods across state lines besides things maybe like raw milk?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Also it will only drive prices up in rural areas, not lower them in high density areas.
    Why on earth do you come to that conclusion when the EXACT OPPOSITE is true? You aren't listening to what Rand says about this bill at all, are you? You don't seem to get what this is doing at all.

    The point is that people who live in big cities and work for large companies that already are allowed to skirt federal regulations and use insurance that is sold across state lines have cheaper insurance that is going up at a rate of 2-3% per year..

    The government has FORCED EVERYBODY ELSE into the individual market, where insurance rates are going up 20-30% per year, and these are mostly small businesses and people in rural areas..

    Now people with small businesses and in rural areas will be able to join up with millions of people across the country to buy insurance, instead of having to deal with the individual market.

    All Rand/Trump did was legalize freedom, what the hell is wrong with this??
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The real change isn't the associations idea- that basically already happens with the exchanges- individuals achieving group purchasing discounts.
    No. People on Obamacare do not get group purchasing discounts. That is just factually wrong. Obamacare is much more expensive than if a person got an individual plan prior to Obamacare. In Obamacare healthy people are subsidizing unhealthy people.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    No. People on Obamacare do not get group purchasing discounts. That is just factually wrong. Obamacare is much more expensive than if a person got an individual plan prior to Obamacare. In Obamacare healthy people are subsidizing unhealthy people.
    Under all insurance plans (health, financial, auto, other), those who don't file claims help pay for (subsidize) those who do. It is how the business operates. Healthcare premiums were rising long before Obama even became president.


    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robbman.../#283dc1263a01

    Health insurance premiums have been rising for decades, almost (though not quite) as stubbornly reliable as an eastern sunrise. And it turns out that these increases actually slowed after the Affordable Care Act became law in 2010. That's according to data collected by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which tracks a range of topics around spending on health care in its Medical Expenditure Panel Survey. The survey tracks the health insurance offered by private firms big and small, and in all cases, the average rate of premium growth from the time the law passed in 2010 through 2015 was actually lower than from 2004 to 2010. And premium growth was lowest for firms with fewer than 50 employees.

    A similar study, prepared every year by the Kaiser Family Foundation, shows a similar trajectory for premiums, and it continues into 2016. "Everything's been slower because we had the recession and health care costs just haven't been going up that much," says Gary Claxton, who directs the Kaiser Family Foundation's Health Care Marketplace Project. "That's still true, though it's wearing off a bit now."
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-13-2017 at 03:07 PM.

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