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Thread: Libertarian arguement for open borders

  1. #1

    Libertarian arguement for open borders

    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...ource=facebook

    What can be done to spread freedom around the world? One answer is to make different governments compete for citizens. States with private property protections, low taxes, and something like the rule of law are more attractive places to live than places that lack those institutions. When people leave the jurisdictions of bad governments, it deprives those governments of material support. That only works, though, if other countries are willing to take in the people who have left.

    and, the articles also mentions that exceptions to criminality and disease would also exclude people such as quarantine.

    In the case of welfare:

    John Locke put it in no uncertain terms in his essay “For a General Naturalisation:”

    Another objection very apt to be made is that it will increase the number of the poor…If by poor are meant such as want relief and being idle themselves live upon the labour of others; if there be any such poor amongst us already who are able to work and do not, ’tis a shame to the government and a fault in our constitution and ought to be remedied, for whilst that is permitted we must ruin, whether we have many or few people.

    The welfare state may be bad, but that’s no reason for libertarians to support immigration restrictions.




    I guess what Locke is saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.



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  3. #2
    Opps, MODS please move I think I posted in the wrong area.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Opps, MODS please move I think I posted in the wrong area.
    You are right, this garbage should be in The Vent.

  5. #4
    Why would they stay home and fix their own crap, when they can come here and crap our fix?
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Ryan
    In Washington you can see them everywhere: the Parasites and baby Stalins sucking the life out of a once-great nation.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    Why would they stay home and fix their own crap, when they can come here and crap our fix?
    They bring their unique perspective on things and we benefit immensely from it. Didn't you know?

  7. #6
    In reality an open borders scenario would end up similar to that of America's southwest. Massive bloc voting, little economic benefit (silly excuse for immigration by the way), social disruption, cultural tensions, and an increasing wealth inequality along with oligarchies. Even as someone who isn't "libertarian" one could see the ramifications of such hasty decision-making. Right now America is a population of 300 million people, if your goal is to enact Libertarianism and Austrian economics in its purest Somalian-esque form, then please tell me how that is going to happen once the population increases to over 1.5 billion with most of its populace being foreign-born and a non-American outlook? Serious question. Please tell me how you're going to get over 50% of Reps in the House (even under our current system that's absurd) or a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Even if you did manage this feat, how would you enact legislation in light of the barrage of constant MSM attacks, masses of people protesting/rioting, and pressure from the moderates within your camp who wish to save face and are more concerned with PR than ideology? Imagine Libertarians trying to undo universal health care or cut back on footstamps- the Media will focus on someone dying in the streets and run the clip endlessly with millions protesting and begging for your politicians' removal.

    States with private property protections, low taxes, and something like the rule of law are more attractive places to live than places that lack those institutions.
    Nonsense. Let's use the American term for 'state' shall we? My state and surrounding area have tons of State intervention into the economy, along with high taxes and sensible views on unionization and labor. We have tons of industry here and people migrating from all over the country to work around my area. Where are the people dying to get into an extreme laissez-fairez part of Alabama? Where are the capitalists going down there to build massive industries? Oh yeah that's right- we have a foundation and infrastructure here and corporations are more than willing to "play ball" to stay here, same thing happened when Britain & Seattle enacted so-called "Socialistic" reforms such as raising minimum wage. In the end the businesses play ball and will work with the State when necessary for their survival and profit. Also, there aren't any serious economic reasons to think State intervention facilitates poverty and stagnation. Rather, we see soft Corporatist areas in Europe that have sensible coordination between the laborer, property owner, and State for mutual benefit, this is due to necessary and intelligent intervention into the economy.
    Last edited by Identity; 10-08-2017 at 05:14 PM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You are right, this garbage should be in The Vent.
    LOL now that's funny. +rep.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  9. #8
    Freedom brings success, success attracts leeches, leeches destroy freedom.

    Any freedom society must control immigration and naturalization or it will die.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Freedom brings success, success attracts leeches, leeches destroy freedom.

    Any freedom society must control immigration and naturalization or it will die.
    What if leaches = state?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What if leaches = state?
    Then even anarchists will need border controls to keep out statists. how can they do that without a state?

    The rest of us will have to conduct a little revolution now and then to refresh the tree of liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then even anarchists will need border controls to keep out statists. how can they do that without a state?

    The rest of us will have to conduct a little revolution now and then to refresh the tree of liberty.
    You answered your own question.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    You answered your own question.
    That won't work as a substitute for border controls.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Ron Paul:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

    Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

    What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.
    One thing we can say about Trump: Least Boring President Ever.

    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    “People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular,” Trump wrote, or at least his ghostwriter did. “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post


    What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.
    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron: What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.
    And what is his proposition for a "much better immigration service" exactly?

    The solution to really addressing the problem of illegal immigration, drug smuggling, and the threat of cross-border terrorism is clear: remove the welfare magnet that attracts so many to cross the border illegally, stop the 25 year US war in the Middle East, and end the drug war that incentivizes smugglers to cross the border.

    http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...s-border-wall/
    Ron Paul's Plan: End the welfare state. End the War on Drugs. End foreign military interventions.

    Guess what he doesn't suggest? Actually limiting immigration.

    In fact,, as you can see if you watch the video below, Ron's only hesitation on having completely open borders is the presence of the welfare state.



    But you get rid of the welfare state, which is what his goal was, then you won't have an immigration problem and therefore immigrants should be able to come freely. This he made clear way back in 1988, explaining how immigration is a boon to the USA and why border regulation fails. Starts around the 4 minute mark.



    And of course, Ron doesn't want to deport the illegal immigrants already here, which means he de facto supports Dreamers.

    Why? Because Ron understands liberty. He knows that when you surround a place with fences and armed guards who will attack and even kill you for trying to cross their lines you don't live as a free person, you live in a prison. He knows the history of the USA and how it lasted the first 100 years of its existence with completely open borders. He knows that when you authorize a powerful central government to decide who can go where and when you violate the property rights and association rights of all the citizens of the country. And finally he knows that the free flow of capital, both in goods, services, and people, between countries is what creates wealth and peace and that doing to ourselves in peace time what our enemies do to us in war -that is blockade ourselves and limit or eliminate free trade- is only a prescription for poverty.

    You can be a prisoner or a slave when the state regulates free movement but you can never be free.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    And what is his proposition for a "much better immigration service" exactly?



    Ron Paul's Plan: End the welfare state. End the War on Drugs. End foreign military interventions.

    Guess what he doesn't suggest? Actually limiting immigration.

    In fact,, as you can see if you watch the video below, Ron's only hesitation on having completely open borders is the presence of the welfare state.



    But you get rid of the welfare state, which is what his goal was, then you won't have an immigration problem and therefore immigrants should be able to come freely. This he made clear way back in 1988, explaining how immigration is a boon to the USA and why border regulation fails. Starts around the 4 minute mark.



    And of course, Ron doesn't want to deport the illegal immigrants already here, which means he de facto supports Dreamers.

    Why? Because Ron understands liberty. He knows that when you surround a place with fences and armed guards who will attack and even kill you for trying to cross their lines you don't live as a free person, you live in a prison. He knows the history of the USA and how it lasted the first 100 years of its existence with completely open borders. He knows that when you authorize a powerful central government to decide who can go where and when you violate the property rights and association rights of all the citizens of the country. And finally he knows that the free flow of capital, both in goods, services, and people, between countries is what creates wealth and peace and that doing to ourselves in peace time what our enemies do to us in war -that is blockade ourselves and limit or eliminate free trade- is only a prescription for poverty.

    You can be a prisoner or a slave when the state regulates free movement but you can never be free.
    What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.
    If he believes in open borders then he is wrong.

    Freedom brings success, success attracts leeches, leeches destroy freedom.

    Any freedom society must control immigration and naturalization or it will die.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    They bring their unique perspective on things and we benefit immensely from it. Didn't you know?
    Like gun control, socialism, and blowback.


    * Accepted forms of blowback according to posts on another thread seem to indicate that it can include genocide.
    Last edited by RJB; 10-09-2017 at 07:31 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If he believes in open borders then he is wrong.

    Freedom brings success, success attracts leeches, leeches destroy freedom.

    Any freedom society must control immigration and naturalization or it will die.
    You didn't blog your post - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.p...r-open-borders



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