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Thread: Italy: Regional Governments Try to Distance Rome With Referendum

  1. #1

    Default Italy: Regional Governments Try to Distance Rome With Referendum

    Two northern Italian regions, Lombardy and Veneto, will hold a non-binding referendum Oct. 22, hoping to obtain additional powers. However, this is not an independence movement. Regional political parties negotiated with the central government at the beginning of the year to approve the referendum, which will simply ask citizens of the regions whether they want local governments to begin the constitutional procedure for gaining more autonomy.The Italian constitution allows regional governments to negotiate with the central state for more powers. But before beginning negotiations, regional governments decided to hold a non-binding vote to increase their negotiation power by showing they have the support of their citizens.
    The political party that holds power in both regions, the Northern League, has in the past argued in favor of independence for northern Italy. In the 1990s, the party supported a proposal to create an independent country, called "Padania" (the region along the Po valley). However, the regional governments are both coalition governments that include the center-right Forza Italia party, which does not back independence. And the Northern League itself no longer advocates the independence of northern Italy.
    Since Matteo Salvini took over as party leader, the Northern League has attempted to become an Italian nationalist party appealing to voters across the country rather than just to voters in the north. Salvini still criticizes the central government in Rome, but his main foe these days is the European Union. The Northern League's derives its inspiration more from France's National Front than from separatist movements such as in Catalonia. Salvini, commenting about the Catalan referendum in an interview with Italian newspaper La Stampa, said that the vote in Catalonia was illegal and has little resemblance to the Northern League's requests for more autonomy. The autonomy that the regional governments are demanding is not what the Catalan government is demanding but similar to other Italian regions with a degree of autonomy, such as Sicily or Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol.
    Salvini made clear that the regional governments of Lombardy and Veneto are not pursuing any unilateral moves and that they want to reach an agreement with Italy's central government. According to Salvini, the Northern League wants a federal system in which regions have more autonomy on issues such as taxes and the educational system.

    More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/artic...ome-referendum
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2

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    Goodbye E.U.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  4. #3

    Default

    @Swordsmyth

    This is a template for Spain.
    There was simply no reason for what has now reached critical mass.
    Completely mis-managed by a State with a history of barbarism and tyranny.
    The King's speech today was 180 degrees off the mark. Idiot.
    If Madrid had a brian they would oust Rajoy.
    Have a 30 day 'cooling off' and begin negotiations for federalizing Spain (like above/Italy).
    But they won't.
    The central gov't is full of neocons and global lapdogs on the dole with Atlanticist/EU backing.
    Italy is smart. Spain is dumm.
    Last edited by goldenequity; 10-04-2017 at 12:41 AM.

  5. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Goodbye E.U.
    Funny. I remember once in my Wisconsin public school Government Class that I said the EU will fall apart in 20 years (~ 14 years ago) --
     
    and that America won't exist in 50. :P


    Mr. C just smiled, and the class was like, "wadafuk lol?" Who actually knows which way the winds will blow?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    @Swordsmyth

    This is a template for Spain.
    There was simply no reason for what has now reached critical mass.
    Completely mis-managed by a State with a history or barbarism and tyranny.
    The King's speech today was 180 degrees off the mark. Idiot.
    If Madrid had a brian they would oust Rajoy.
    Have a 30 day 'cooling off' and begin negotiations for federalizing Spain (like above/Italy).
    But they won't.
    The central gov't is full of neocons and global lapdogs on the dole with Atlanticist/EU backing.
    Italy is smart. Spain is dumm.
    Good assessment. Whatever your opinions about "collectivism" just face it - the Italians know discretion.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 10-03-2017 at 08:22 PM.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    @Swordsmyth

    This is a template for Spain.
    There was simply no reason for what has now reached critical mass.
    Completely mis-managed by a State with a history or barbarism and tyranny.
    The King's speech today was 180 degrees off the mark. Idiot.
    If Madrid had a brian they would oust Rajoy.
    Have a 30 day 'cooling off' and begin negotiations for federalizing Spain (like above/Italy).
    But they won't.
    The central gov't is full of neocons and global lapdogs on the dole with Atlanticist/EU backing.
    Italy is smart. Spain is dumm.
    We will see how this plays out in Italy, the separatists could be salami slicing their way towards independence, and the central government might go nuts and try to resist the decentralization either way.

    I think Spain wants to provoke a war as an excuse to crush regional autonomy once and for all, they are betting the EU will support them and they are probably right but that won't guarantee them victory, it is a VERY stupid gamble.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Funny. I remember once in my Wisconsin public school Government Class that I said the EU will fall apart in 20 years (~ 14 years ago) --
     
    and that America won't exist in 50. :P


    Mr. C just smiled, and the class was like, "wadafuk lol?" Who actually knows which way the winds will blow?
    America will exist but NOT in her present form, the EU will be back as well but as a conquered empire not a willing coalition, it will probably suffer from schism at least once more after that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    America will exist but NOT in her present form, the EU will be back as well but as a conquered empire not a willing coalition, it will probably suffer from schism at least once more after that.
    You'd have to go back in time 14 years to argue that one with me. I'm through predicting how the world ends

    Keep in mind about the EU: the dynasties of Europe, for all their intense conflicts and hypocrisy, still preferred peace over moving borders, and they were much better at maintaining their nations. All the EU's accomplished is festering NatSoc ideals and digging into old wounds.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 10-03-2017 at 08:28 PM.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    @Swordsmyth

    This is a template for Spain.
    There was simply no reason for what has now reached critical mass.
    Completely mis-managed by a State with a history or barbarism and tyranny.
    The King's speech today was 180 degrees off the mark. Idiot.
    If Madrid had a brian they would oust Rajoy.
    Have a 30 day 'cooling off' and begin negotiations for federalizing Spain (like above/Italy).
    But they won't.
    The central gov't is full of neocons and global lapdogs on the dole with Atlanticist/EU backing.
    Italy is smart. Spain is dumm.
    In recent history:

    Scotland planted the seed with their referendum which did not pass.
    Catalonia had a non-binding referendum so time ago.
    Brexit.
    Catalonia votes to secede.
    Italy, with Lombardy and Veneto non-binding vote.

    I'm sensing a pattern.

    Prediction:

    Northern Spain goes next the Basque People's
    Scotland revisits the idea of independence.
    Belgium starts to break apart.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    In recent history:

    Scotland planted the seed with their referendum which did not pass.
    Catalonia had a non-binding referendum so time ago.
    Brexit.
    Catalonia votes to secede.
    Italy, with Lombardy and Veneto non-binding vote.

    I'm sensing a pattern.

    Prediction:

    Northern Spain goes next the Basque People's
    Scotland revisits the idea of independence.
    Belgium starts to break apart.
    Here's another prediction also (seems likely 2 me)

    A civil war will not happen because the Catalans are not prepared to fight.
    They are pretending to be victims and trying to get the international community to do their work for them.

    Catalonians will not fight a war,
    they like their cosmopolitan life too much
    and are banking on the international community to deal with Spain
    which won't happen.

    Spain will restore order through force
    ,
    imprison the Catalonian independence leaders,
    and possibly invoke Article 155 stripping Catalonian autonomy.

    ========

    I can't think of a single example of 'independence' (from a Sovereign State) w/o force (or threat of force/resistance. See Crimea)

    Someone suggested Iceland (from Denmark) but mostly that was cuz Denmark didn't really care.
    Greenland btw is still a 'dependent territory' of Denmark.

    Political 'States' are designed to accrue power and expand...
    NOT (ever) the other way around. You don't simply 'vote' your way out. (Brexit doesn't count.)

    I guess 'bankruptcy' might hold an 'exception'... aka the USSR
    but even that was arguably 'federalized' by design and simply fell apart.

    Federalism/shared power within a Sovereign state is the 'peaceful' solution (that Ukraine rejected)
    It unites and strengthens across time (minus corruption of course).

    War & 'Balkanization' is the Globalist 'divide, conquer & puppetize' preference. (see Kurdistan, see Czechoslovakia )

    but yes...
    Scotland would have been the first example to actually vote themselves into a true Sovereign
    forming a 'partnership of equals' with Britain. Maybe in 2019... we wait and watch.
    Last edited by goldenequity; 10-03-2017 at 11:52 PM.

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    Here's another prediction also (seems likely 2 me)

    A civil war will not happen because the Catalans are not prepared to fight.
    They are pretending to be victims and trying to get the international community to do their work for them.

    Catalonians will not fight a war,
    they like their cosmopolitan life too much
    and are banking on the international community to deal with Spain
    which won't happen.

    Spain will restore order through force
    ,
    imprison the Catalonian independence leaders,
    and possibly invoke Article 155 stripping Catalonian autonomy.

    ========

    I can't think of a single example of 'independence' w/o force.

    Someone suggested Iceland (from Denmark) but mostly that was cuz Denmark didn't really care.
    Greenland btw is still a 'dependent territory' of Denmark.

    Political 'States' are designed to accrue power and expand...
    NOT (ever) the other way around.
    I guess 'bankruptcy' might hold the 'exception'... aka the USSR
    but even that was arguably 'federalized' by design and simply fell apart.
    I would concur with everything you've said. Which is why they need backing from someone. The Basque will be willing and they would join Catalan in a general strike and any other non-violent means. I don't see any other nation backing Catalonia as that would probably be seen as a pretext if not an act of war from any outside influence.


    I hope it does not turn into another civil war. The one in 1936 was called the "Little World War" where Germany backed Franco and Mexico and Russia backed the Republicans. It basically was Commie v/s Fascist so nobody won. Also, its where Hitler's air force practiced tactics prior to invading Poland and entering WW2.

    If article 155 is evoked than Catalonia really has nothing to lose.
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 10-03-2017 at 11:19 PM.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Northern Spain goes next the Basque People's
    The Pyrenees don't stop in Spain.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  13. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    The Pyrenees don't stop in Spain.
    Brittany and other areas may want to leave France as well.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #13

    Default

    Can all these nationalists fight though? They can't just beg sympathy on twitter for independence.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Can all these nationalists fight though? They can't just beg sympathy on twitter for independence.
    That is the $1,000,000 dollar question, I have to believe that one of them will and then it will start an avalanche all over.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #15

    Default

    speaking of balkanization

    US staging ‘fatal provocations’ against Russian forces in Syria – Lavrov
    https://www.rt.com/news/405588-lavro...05588_c_4wAMyR




    Washington is playing a dangerous game of encouraging terrorists in Syria to attack government forces and the Russian military,
    Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.
    Moscow won’t leave aggressive US steps unanswered, but wants to overcome the political deadlock, he added.

    In an interview with the London-based, Arabic-language Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper,
    taken ahead of the visit of Saudi King Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud to Moscow,
    Lavrov noted that the US-led coalition and the Syrian rebel forces they support
    consistently act in a way that helps Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) and other terrorist groups.

    “In some cases, these forces mount allegedly accidental strikes against the Syrian Armed Forces,
    after which Islamic State counterattacks.

    In other cases, they inspire other terrorists to attack strategic locations
    over which official Damascus has restored its legitimate authority,
    or to stage fatal provocations against our military personnel.”


    Double Standards

    Washington is guided by “double standards” in Syria, the Russian foreign minister said,
    slamming the US for failing to acknowledge that there are no such things as bad or good terrorists.

    “If you apply double standards, divide terrorists into ‘bad’ and ‘very bad,’
    force others to enter the coalition on political motives,
    forgetting about the necessary UN sanction to approve these actions,
    then it’s hard to speak about the effectiveness of an anti-terror campaign,” he said.

    Russia’s involvement in the campaign against ISIS in Syria aids not only Russia’s national security, but also regional stability, Lavrov said.
    He added that it is not enough to defeat terrorists on the ground to bring peace to embattled regions, noting the importance of diplomatic efforts.

    “It’s impossible to eradicate terrorism in the Middle East and North Africa through military means only.
    We are deeply convinced about that.
    The advantage of our policy lies in that it is not self-interested and does not have a hidden agenda,” he said.

    Moscow will continue to engage in the process of conflict resolution in these regions through peaceful political and diplomatic efforts,
    and it “invites everyone interested to participate in this joint and honest work,” Russia’s top diplomat said.

    ----------



    Let's hear it for the Sovereigns

    For the first time in 29 yrs
    Iraqi forces have set foot again on Iran's borders
    This time as close allies in joint exercises against terror


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMg5YTUIAAvR08.jpg:large
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMg5SvV4AAJzLZ.jpg:large
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLMg0bLVoAA53Mr.jpg:large

    Definitely what Israel and the hegemons didn't want -
    to ally Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian and Turkish armies. hahaha
    Last edited by goldenequity; 10-04-2017 at 12:52 AM.

  17. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    Definitely what Israel and the hegemons didn't want -
    to ally Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian and Turkish armies. hahaha
    40+ years of meddling, false flags, and cynical ignorance down the drain. Millions dead, catastrophic damage to infrastructure, and our government's loss of face - all for nothing.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  18. #17

  19. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is the $1,000,000 dollar question, I have to believe that one of them will and then it will start an avalanche all over.
    bump.
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 10-06-2017 at 01:09 AM.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  20. #19

  21. #20

    Default

    Ukraine: Verkhovna Rada today
    smoke grenades and fighting. They are "discussing" separatists...
























    ======

    Flashback:

    Article from 1999: Sources: CIA gets go-ahead to destabilize Yugoslavia
    http://edition.cnn.com/US/9905/24/cia.yugoslavia.01/
    http://archive.is/WannH


    "President Clinton has authorized the Central Intelligence Agency to look for ways to destabilize the government of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, sources tell CNN."
    Last edited by goldenequity; 10-06-2017 at 01:57 PM.

  22. #21

    Default

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/italys-2-...050422354.html

    MILAN (AP) — Voters in the wealthy northern Italian regions of Lombardy and Veneto decided Sunday if they want to seek greater autonomy from Rome, riding a global tide of self-determination that has swamped Spain's Catalonia region.

    While the twin referendums are non-binding, a resounding "yes" vote would give the presidents of the neighboring regions more leverage in negotiations to seek a greater share of tax revenue and to grab more responsibility from Italy's central government.

    The leaders want more powers in areas such as security, immigration, education and the environment.

    Unlike in Catalonia, the referendums do not seek independence and have been approved by Italy's constitutional court. Still, the autonomy drive is a powerful threat to Rome's authority. Together, Veneto and Lombardy account for 30 percent of Italy's GDP and nearly one-quarter of the nation's electorate.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  23. #22

    Default

    Italy's 2 richest regions claim victory in autonomy votes

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/italys-2-richest-regions-seek-more-autonomy-rome-050422354.html
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment






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