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Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
How is allowing residents of NY, NJ and California to pay their own tax rates (the ones that they chose for themselves) a totalitarian act? It might actually wake some people up. Half will want lower taxes. Half will want secession. Win-win-win.
The removal of the state and local deduction encourages lower state and local government taxes. It might also encourage principled State candidates to run on more radical plaforms (in low tax states) like abolishing property taxes entirely.
Sounds good to me.
Ugh. Please keep up. Spending is the real tax! Spending. You are debating various methods of collecting. Literally rearranging the deck chairs of the tax code. The collection methods are nothing but a shell game for political purposes. Most of the taxes aren't collected directly anyway. They're collected through a devaluation of currency, debt and misallocated resources.
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
Someone will pay for all this spending. I say it's going to be those holding bonds, dollars and stocks denominated in dollars. If those in low tax states can keep more of their fiat dollars, from the IRS, and convert them into real money before this whole house of cards comes crashing down the better. These states should be rewarded for fiscal prudence. Big government states should not be able to pay less taxes because they choose to tax themselves more. That is their choice. They should see and feel those results good and hard.
Besides, I believe your central point to be a fallacy. Alternative non-fiat forms of money i.e. gold and silver enable you to escape devaluation. Taxes do not equal spending if I can buy silver and protect my savings. The bills will come due but not everyone will be splitting the tab when this whole thing comes crashing down.
This, coming from a guy from NJ.
I'll go along with Ron Paul:
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/54280...#sp=show-clips
There is no spoon.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
Look this isn't a cult. The reason I agree with the Bill of Rights, Natural Law and Dr. Paul is because the philosophy makes logical sense. I trust in the math. I use reason when forming my opinions.
While I believe that Dr. Paul is right that spending is a more important (in terms of size of govt.) than taxation, I do not believe for a minute that they are the same. A sovereign state (or individual) always has a right to default on obligations.The Fed will never honestly default but either way I don't have to hold dollars.
Now, will most people suffer because of the coming devaluation of the dollar? Yes, and this is what Dr. Paul is saying. It doesn't matter what the tax rate is, the spending rate will cause the Fed to monetize the debt.
I disagree that the tax rate is meaningless though. If (and ifs are always iffy) a President and Congress was able to pass reform that actually lowered taxes, even if it didn't lower spending, it would be a step in the right direction. If the way we lower federal taxes is to require the citizens of high tax states to suffer the consequences of their own states legislatures and actually pay their taxes without federal help then so be it. It's an incremental step in the direction of liberty. I'll take it.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
Isn't this pretty standard? Pretty Cruz and Paul and Steve Forbes' flat tax and consumption tax proposals were the exact same as far as eliminating these deductions as Trump's. The FAIR Tax obviously wouldn't allow for property tax deductions. This doesn't seem that controversial to me.
The right thing to do would be to eliminate all perverse deductions like the mortgage interest and child care deductions and have a low flat rate or a very slightly tiered rate.
Agreed it's not a cult. It's just that some of us share and fully understand the same principles that Dr. Paul has been trying to explain. Others have a sense that he's right, but don't know why, or they pick and choose certain part of those principles when it suits their beliefs.
I really don't care about how they re-arrange the tax code, because it doesn't matter if they're going to keep spending. I have no desire to use the government taxation method to "hurt the bad guys" or help the "good" guys. That's not consistent with my principles of liberty.
And yeah, they could cut income taxes to zero for everybody and the same wealth would be withdrawn from the economy - because it's not the method of collecting taxes that matters - it's the spending. I like to see taxes go lower and I like to see as many "deductions" for as many people as possible. But all of that is beside the point. Because the government gets their money whether they tax you, borrow from your future labor, print the money or inflate the prices. As Dr. Paul has said, cutting taxes while increasing spending is immoral, since you're really just taxing the next generation and the poor get hit the hardest.
All this re-arranging of the tax code deck chairs to make things "better for some and worse for others" is a complete distraction from liberty. It's the principle.
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
That is bold statement. You don't care how you are robbed? Even if a different method of robbery is easier to circumvent? I do. Lower taxes are always preferable to higher taxes, period.
So if it doesn't matter why don't they just raise income taxes to 60%? Since it doesn't matter I'm sure it would have no effect on your liberty
I'm sorry but of course tax rates matter (even when the govt has a printing press). The truth is, the Feds are out of control and will continue spending no matter what. If they raise taxes the taxpayers will pay the piper now as the tax eaters continue to feed (until the productive go Galt). If they lower taxes holders of bonds, dollars, US stocks, and Govt IOU's (SS, Medicare, Medicaid) will pay for the spending later. Either way the country is screwed. Although the latter allows economically literate individuals to withdraw their savings from the system before it implodes. I'd take lower taxes any day.
How am I hurting the bad guys? I want to allow those that want high taxes (bad guys) to pay for those taxes. Shouldn't people (including bad guys) be able to harm themselves in a free society?
No, the extraction would be different. Gold, silver, land and other hard assets would go to the moon. The extracted wealth would come from those clinging to fiat idols (bonds, dollars, stocks denominated in dollars, and government IOUs). Like all that develop degenerate behavior, these indivduals must suffer the consequences of their own actions. That is the price of liberty.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
Yes, you made a good and creative point and I agreed with it. Long term, it could exacerbate that particular problem.
There's more than that one element to the tax reform and simplification proposal, though, and overall I think any of you would admit: it's quite good.
Most of the tax revenue collected by gov is collected by the top earners because they have more money to tax. Therefore spending is much more of a tax on the people who can't get a fair shake. Any shifting of the tax burden is just going to benefit the people who pay a lot of tax, not people who only pay a little. In fact it could exacerbate the inflation that we already have if it makes us have to print more money to pay for the government spending thats out of control.
Rand doesn't sound thrilled about this plan. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-GOP-tax-plan
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
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